a7 or A7r ... Arrrgh!

Started 11 months ago | Discussions
jmac35
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a7 or A7r ... Arrrgh!
11 months ago

I thought I was finished with this debate after using my A7 for a week. I am quite happy with it. One thing I was expecting was it to be a little better in low light and high ISO (don't get me wrong, it's very good but not out of this world)

Now, I'm reading several users who have tried both saying that the A7r has a clear advantage in these conditions. The DXOmarks seem to echo that. In wintertime in Canada I am taking a lot of family shots indoors in the afternoon in less than great light.

Here are the pros and cons as I see them.

Pros for A7: No shutter lag, Phase detect, Price
Cons for A7: High ISO results not top of the heap, somewhat more aggressive and unflattering noise in photos

Pros for A7r: Reports of better AF in low light, Reports of more accurate AF in good light, more detail from sensor, Better high iso, Nicer looking noise (maybe just smaller because of pixel size?)
Cons: Possible shutter shock, Possible blur from handheld (open for debate), Shutter lag compared to EFC, Price

Please weigh in if you have used either camera and especially if you have used both!

Sony Alpha 7 Sony Alpha 7R
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nevercat
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Re: a7 or A7r ... Arrrgh!
In reply to jmac35, 11 months ago

jmac35 wrote:

I thought I was finished with this debate after using my A7 for a week. I am quite happy with it. One thing I was expecting was it to be a little better in low light and high ISO (don't get me wrong, it's very good but not out of this world)

What did you expect,how much better would make it what you expected?

Now, I'm reading several users who have tried both saying that the A7r has a clear advantage in these conditions. The DXOmarks seem to echo that. In wintertime in Canada I am taking a lot of family shots indoors in the afternoon in less than great light.

We have to wait for several good tests of these cameras and honnest and good compares!

Here are the pros and cons as I see them.

Pros for A7: No shutter lag, Phase detect, Price
Cons for A7: High ISO results not top of the heap, somewhat more aggressive and unflattering noise in photos

Pros for A7r: Reports of better AF in low light, Reports of more accurate AF in good light, more detail from sensor, Better high iso, Nicer looking noise (maybe just smaller because of pixel size?)
Cons: Possible shutter shock, Possible blur from handheld (open for debate), Shutter lag compared to EFC, Price

Please weigh in if you have used either camera and especially if you have used both!

You say you are quite happy with the camera, so why looking into other cameraws that might be 1/100000 of a stop better her or there. Try the camera you have, don't look to much up to other cameras, or you keep on buying cameras every year (Sony will like it, but will your bank?).

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viking79
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Re: a7 or A7r ... Arrrgh!
In reply to jmac35, 11 months ago

My thoughts:

A7r only has 1/3 stop advantage in RAW.  The difference between A7 and APS-C camera is much greater than the difference between A7r and A7.

So A7 offers 1/250 flash sync, EFCS, extremely fast hybrid focus in good light, and is about $600 US cheaper.  Is the added build quality (metal front plate, and better knobs), 36 MP sensor, and 1/3 stop better image quality worth it to you? (only you can answer that question).

For my use the A7 is still the better camera for me, but the A7r does have some real advantages as well.

Eric

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KwhyChang
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Re: a7 or A7r ... Arrrgh!
In reply to jmac35, 11 months ago

Return it and get the one you want. I wouldn't make a big deal out of it.

Here's a shocker... I like the A7 over the 7R for many reasons, but one of them is the very good deal on the kit lens. I used the money I saved to buy the 35 f2.8. Now that's my decision. Should a I keep an $800 prime that only goes to f2.8?

I don't have the need to pixel peep maybe as much as you, but I do need low light lenses...  definitely get the one you want, not what others tell you you should want.

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rishi o'
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Re: a7 or A7r ... Arrrgh!
In reply to jmac35, 11 months ago

I thought I was finished with this debate after using my A7 for a week. I am quite happy with it. One thing I was expecting was it to be a little better in low light and high ISO (don't get me wrong, it's very good but not out of this world)

Now, I'm reading several users who have tried both saying that the A7r has a clear advantage in these conditions. The DXOmarks seem to echo that. In wintertime in Canada I am taking a lot of family shots indoors in the afternoon in less than great light.

Here are the pros and cons as I see them.

Pros for A7: No shutter lag, Phase detect, Price
Cons for A7: High ISO results not top of the heap, somewhat more aggressive and unflattering noise in photos

Pros for A7r: Reports of better AF in low light, Reports of more accurate AF in good light, more detail from sensor, Better high iso, Nicer looking noise (maybe just smaller because of pixel size?)
Cons: Possible shutter shock, Possible blur from handheld (open for debate), Shutter lag compared to EFC, Price

Please weigh in if you have used either camera and especially if you have used both!

I'm in the exact smae boat as you. Adding one more item to the list - the A7r is reported to do better with video than the A7. Would love to have confirmation if all these claims are true (especially auto ficus and video results) but alas reviews like camera labs or steve huff don't dig deep enough.
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Richard Ettinger
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Re: a7 or A7r ... Arrrgh!
In reply to jmac35, 11 months ago

I just received my A7 last week. I had preordered and spent the waiting period agonizing over whether to switch to the A7r or not.

Had the A7 for a week now and think I'm going to stay with it. I very happy with the images this camera produces. I'm a hobbyist. Don't shoot for a living, or even sell the occasional photo. So the A7 meets my needs right now. Going to use the 'savings' to iupgrade the adapters for my Canon and Leica lenses.

Canon 40D. Canon 50mm f1.4, canon 135mm 2.8/soft focus, Canon 70-200 f4L, Canon 24-105L. Sony Nex-7.

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KwhyChang
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Re: a7 or A7r ... Arrrgh!
In reply to Richard Ettinger, 11 months ago

Richard Ettinger wrote:

I just received my A7 last week. I had preordered and spent the waiting period agonizing over whether to switch to the A7r or not.

Had the A7 for a week now and think I'm going to stay with it. I very happy with the images this camera produces. I'm a hobbyist. Don't shoot for a living, or even sell the occasional photo. So the A7 meets my needs right now. Going to use the 'savings' to iupgrade the adapters for my Canon and Leica lenses.

Canon 40D. Canon 50mm f1.4, canon 135mm 2.8/soft focus, Canon 70-200 f4L, Canon 24-105L. Sony Nex-7.

Agreed. And how lucky we are that we have previous Canon lenses, one of the few third party that will AF, activate IS, and meter with an adapter. I'm liking the results with the 17-40 and Metabones III.

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Felice62
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Re: a7 or A7r ... Arrrgh!
In reply to Richard Ettinger, 11 months ago

Richard Ettinger wrote:

I just received my A7 last week. I had preordered and spent the waiting period agonizing over whether to switch to the A7r or not.

Had the A7 for a week now and think I'm going to stay with it. I very happy with the images this camera produces. I'm a hobbyist. Don't shoot for a living, or even sell the occasional photo. So the A7 meets my needs right now. Going to use the 'savings' to iupgrade the adapters for my Canon and Leica lenses.

Canon 40D. Canon 50mm f1.4, canon 135mm 2.8/soft focus, Canon 70-200 f4L, Canon 24-105L. Sony Nex-7.

I have the A7 since a week now and I am really satisfied by its' high ISOs performance.

If you stop pixlel peeping you'll be very satisfied as well. Also do not bother shooting IPG for anything needing to push your sensitivity beyon 800 iso.

I don't like Sony's interpretation of what a jpeg should be. for me it's raw even at base iso.

The quantity of details retained even if 'noisy' image above 6400 iso is very high. As a matter of fact I think the A7 does really a great job with that.

Does 7R better? Maybe. is it worth going for it?

Not for what I need.

Your mileage may vary buth for me A7 is really an impressive performer, in the IQ department.

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Felice62
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Re: a7 or A7r ... Arrrgh!
In reply to jmac35, 11 months ago

And my spelling is poooooooor

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clail
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Re: a7 or A7r ... Arrrgh!
In reply to rishi o', 11 months ago

My A7/fe35 did well at a wedding dinner without flash. Noticed some EVF lags when focusing but I was surprised at the no of keepers. Lighting was bad, it was going at 1/30-1/60, f2.6 and 6400 at most times and a no of shots were blurred but I'm very happy that I got many shots in focus although I was snapping along without a care as I'm just a guest. Shot jpeg as I'm still on LR4 but the files have lots of pop and I can push the files as much as my nex 6 raw files! Also tried B&W at 25600 and focus is still fast and accurate. Compared to my Nex 6/sel35, it s waaaay faster and more accurate In low light.

A7R is said to have a better CDAF than the A7 but I've tried it at a photo workshop And I don't think it can keep up with the a7 though. Shot it from evening to sundown with the fe35, it did suffer from longer lags.

About 135 shots and batt still has 64% on.

focus is not a concern for both IMO but the R is slightly slower in response and more clunky. I took the a7 as I think I'd rather wait for v2 of the a7r as I'm not a landscape tog. Just spend the money saved on better lenses, the CZ is nice.

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lowincash
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Re: a7 or A7r ... Arrrgh!
In reply to jmac35, 11 months ago

I don't think having the a7r over the a7 will make you any better of a photographer so I say you just go spend that extra money on better glass when they come out.

I'm not a pixel peeper and the files from the a7 looks great even in high ISO. A lot better to work with than the nex6/7 that I had before.

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I only shoot JPEG =]

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jmac35
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Re: a7 or A7r ... Arrrgh!
In reply to lowincash, 11 months ago

I am not trying to ruffle any feathers here, I've had great results with all my Sony cameras from Nex 3 to 5n and now the A7/r. I'm just trying to make a decision with the limited info we have available so far on these cameras.

What has me second-guessing myself are the report that the things I expected the A7 to excel at might actually be better on the A7r.

This quote from the dpreview first impression surprised me about AF: "After shooting several hundred images on our trip with Sony in Tennessee, I found far fewer sharp-focus images from my α7 shooting than from the α7R."

And the experiences of a few members here seem to second that.

If real-world low-light performance/high ISO (up to 3200) is more or less equal I will probably stick with the A7 but, again, user report are pointing toward the A7r being better and seem to be backed up by DXOmark Low Light ISO score or 2746 for A7r compared to 2248 for A7.

Forum member Zilver is using both cameras and said this about lowlight: "To be honest if you don't see the A7R files, you'll be happy with the A7 lowlight performance. But if you see the lowlight pictures of the A7R, you'll be in love, I play with a lot of latest cameras but it is the best pictures I've ever seen for night photography, not just for noise but the life like 3d feel is just fantastic."

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jkspepper
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first world problems...
In reply to jmac35, 11 months ago

it's just a camera and it's just money, pick one and be done with.  If you have to have an "arghh..." moment over a R difference then life for you must be really hard always looking at he greener grass or the jones down the road instead of just getting on with it and enjoying life..

pick one and be done.

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red fuji
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Re: a7 or A7r ... Arrrgh!
In reply to jmac35, 11 months ago

On the contrary- Some of the pro reviewers are saying the A7 is slightly better at high iso than the A7r.

Here is some simple formula:
if someone is having a hard time deciding between the two then most probably the A7 is what they need.

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jkspepper
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Re: a7 or A7r ... Arrrgh!
In reply to red fuji, 11 months ago

red fuji wrote:

On the contrary- Some of the pro reviewers are saying the A7 is slightly better at high iso than the A7r.

Here is some simple formula:
if someone is having a hard time deciding between the two then most probably the A7 is what they need.

Agreed.

Agonising (and it is agonising to read) over the R just tells me you don't know what you want, you don't know what you need it for or you don't know what you would use it for.  Pick the A7. Pick the A7R. They're the same.

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jmac35
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Re: a7 or A7r ... Arrrgh!
In reply to jkspepper, 11 months ago

jkspepper wrote:

red fuji wrote:

On the contrary- Some of the pro reviewers are saying the A7 is slightly better at high iso than the A7r.

Here is some simple formula:
if someone is having a hard time deciding between the two then most probably the A7 is what they need.

Agreed.

Agonising (and it is agonising to read) over the R just tells me you don't know what you want, you don't know what you need it for or you don't know what you would use it for. Pick the A7. Pick the A7R. They're the same.

Then don't read.

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KwhyChang
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Re: first world problems...
In reply to jkspepper, 11 months ago

jkspepper wrote:

it's just a camera and it's just money, pick one and be done with. If you have to have an "arghh..." moment over a R difference then life for you must be really hard always looking at he greener grass or the jones down the road instead of just getting on with it and enjoying life..

pick one and be done.

I like what you said. Reminds me of the saying that the secret to life is not getting what you want, but wanting what you get.

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rishi o'
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Re: a7 or A7r ... Arrrgh!
In reply to jkspepper, 11 months ago

jkspepper wrote:

red fuji wrote:

On the contrary- Some of the pro reviewers are saying the A7 is slightly better at high iso than the A7r.

Here is some simple formula:
if someone is having a hard time deciding between the two then most probably the A7 is what they need.

Agreed.

Agonising (and it is agonising to read) over the R just tells me you don't know what you want, you don't know what you need it for or you don't know what you would use it for. Pick the A7. Pick the A7R. They're the same.

I disagree. The OP just wants to know what they are buying and it's not clear from the information provided.

Here's what I don't know:

- Does A7r focus considerably more accurately than the A7 in low light.

- Does the A7r produces significantly better high iso photographs

- Does the A7r produce significantly better video quality

If the answer to those questions are yes, it's a significant reason for me to choose the A7r over the A7 and I would buy the A7r in a second. If the answer is no, I'd buy the A7 because it has the advantages (in my opinion) of faster operation, smaller raw files, quieter operation, and lack of potential shutter shock. Cost is not a big factor for me.

So far all the reviews we have read are good for beginners but are not adequate for advanced users. I'm hoping that the dpreview, cinema5d and Philip Bloom reviews can fill the gap and help me make an informed decision on what to purchase. Nothing wrong with knowing what you are going to get. It's a considerable investment.

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Brian Caslis
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Re: a7 or A7r ... Arrrgh!
In reply to jmac35, 11 months ago

jmac35 wrote:

I am not trying to ruffle any feathers here, I've had great results with all my Sony cameras from Nex 3 to 5n and now the A7/r. I'm just trying to make a decision with the limited info we have available so far on these cameras.

What has me second-guessing myself are the report that the things I expected the A7 to excel at might actually be better on the A7r.

This quote from the dpreview first impression surprised me about AF: "After shooting several hundred images on our trip with Sony in Tennessee, I found far fewer sharp-focus images from my α7 shooting than from the α7R."

And the experiences of a few members here seem to second that.

If real-world low-light performance/high ISO (up to 3200) is more or less equal I will probably stick with the A7 but, again, user report are pointing toward the A7r being better and seem to be backed up by DXOmark Low Light ISO score or 2746 for A7r compared to 2248 for A7.

Forum member Zilver is using both cameras and said this about lowlight: "To be honest if you don't see the A7R files, you'll be happy with the A7 lowlight performance. But if you see the lowlight pictures of the A7R, you'll be in love, I play with a lot of latest cameras but it is the best pictures I've ever seen for night photography, not just for noise but the life like 3d feel is just fantastic."

I have the A7 and have looked at all the web postings on the differences. To be honest many of the claimed differences I don't see and I love some of the "focusing errors" that clearly other things like motion blur.

What are going to do with the camera, what pictures are you going to take? Are you going to take landscapes and sell them or print larger then 3 feet across? If yes, get the A7r, if no get the A7. The A7 is clearly a better all around camera, every single reviewer comments that it's faster to use. In my use I see no shutter blackout, etc... I have seen complained about on the A7r.

Ignore DXO scores and the like. Take pretty pictures and ignore 90% of the stuff posted to forums like this. It's like arguing how many angels are on the head of a pin. And while you are at it, get the A7 kit with the despised kit lens which actually takes excellent pictures if you stop and correct for distortion.

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aodi
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Re: a7 or A7r ... Arrrgh!
In reply to jmac35, 11 months ago

Look at this

http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Sony_Alpha_A7/verdict.shtml

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