What is your biggest disappointment about GM1?

Started 8 months ago | Discussions
Iskender
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Re: no focus ring
In reply to TEBnewyork, 7 months ago

TEBnewyork wrote:

Iskender wrote:

Not to mention those fully-digital controls are likely to be even less accurate than normal by-wire focus. Which is a significant problem, since accuracy is what manual focus is all about. It's good that they've provided some way of doing it, but it's clearly an "emergency only" feature on this lens.

I have no idea of what you mean by this. You have enlarged view and focus peaking how is having a dial on back then any different than on the lens where you are using the same cues to figure out if you are in focus.

Because you get the same knowledge, but not the same means. Anyone who has used a good (or any) manual lens knows that by-wire focusing is often like walking on ice. One has to learn what adjustment will be interpreted which way, since it's not a matter of direct control. On the GM1, there is only a touch-screen and buttons for this. It is bound to have even worse performance, otherwise you would have to click on the buttons all day to get anywhere.

Do you do a lot of manual focusing yourself? Judging solely by your question, I'd guess no, but tell me if I'm utterly wrong. I'm just a bit surprised someone could think it will work just as well without a lens ring.

Manual focus with dials will be better than the touchscreen version. This is assuming it will be implemented that way on other bodies, do we know this to be the case? Anyway, it will still be worse, and this should be a given: they put it on the lenses in the first place because that's better. A large ring with a diameter of several centimetres will always be easier to use than tiny, fiddly dial. If you use dials for manual focus, you will have to learn to use the lens every time you buy a new camera, which is not how systems work normally.

None of this is a problem for easy manual focus situations, but those are the same cases where AF works anyway. But when it gets to focusing at night, with almost nothing visible on the screen, one really wants to turn the ring slowly back and forth, in as small increments as possible. A good control for adjusting aperture/shutter is not a good control for this.

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TEBnewyork
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Re: no focus ring
In reply to Iskender, 7 months ago

Iskender wrote:

TEBnewyork wrote:

Iskender wrote:

Not to mention those fully-digital controls are likely to be even less accurate than normal by-wire focus. Which is a significant problem, since accuracy is what manual focus is all about. It's good that they've provided some way of doing it, but it's clearly an "emergency only" feature on this lens.

I have no idea of what you mean by this. You have enlarged view and focus peaking how is having a dial on back then any different than on the lens where you are using the same cues to figure out if you are in focus.

Because you get the same knowledge, but not the same means. Anyone who has used a good (or any) manual lens knows that by-wire focusing is often like walking on ice. One has to learn what adjustment will be interpreted which way, since it's not a matter of direct control. On the GM1, there is only a touch-screen and buttons for this. It is bound to have even worse performance, otherwise you would have to click on the buttons all day to get anywhere.

Do you do a lot of manual focusing yourself? Judging solely by your question, I'd guess no, but tell me if I'm utterly wrong. I'm just a bit surprised someone could think it will work just as well without a lens ring.

Utterly wrong…owned Leica M8's and shot a completely manual with no viewfinder medium format technical camera where you needed to know your distances.

However, if I wanted to manual focus the GM1 I would not be doing much with the kit lens. My whole point was very simple manually focusing with the GM1 using is no more prone to focus error than a lens with a focus ring. You may not be as fast at doing that but the tools to assess whether you have focused correctly are identical.

Manual focus with dials will be better than the touchscreen version.

Manual focus on the the GM1 is with a dial but the touch screen is still very useful because you can quickly specify the area you want to enlarge. So, touch focus area, use the four way controller to adjust focus and use focus peaking to know where you are in focus.

This is assuming it will be implemented that way on other bodies, do we know this to be the case? Anyway, it will still be worse, and this should be a given: they put it on the lenses in the first place because that's better. A large ring with a diameter of several centimetres will always be easier to use than tiny, fiddly dial. If you use dials for manual focus, you will have to learn to use the lens every time you buy a new camera, which is not how systems work normally.

There are many choices of lenses that can be used on the camera and all have focus rings except for this kit lens. 90% of the time or more people won't be using this lens for manual focus so why make the lens bigger than it needs to be? If you want an different experience than the target market simply use a different lens.

None of this is a problem for easy manual focus situations, but those are the same cases where AF works anyway. But when it gets to focusing at night, with almost nothing visible on the screen, one really wants to turn the ring slowly back and forth, in as small increments as possible. A good control for adjusting aperture/shutter is not a good control for this.

Most of the focus by wire lenses aren't great. With the gm1 you can move in small increments or hold down on the control and move the focus in large increments.

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Iskender
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Re: no focus ring
In reply to TEBnewyork, 7 months ago

Utterly wrong…owned Leica M8's and shot a completely manual with no viewfinder medium  format technical camera where you needed to know your distances.

However, if I wanted to manual focus the GM1 I would not be doing much with the kit lens. My whole point was very simple manually focusing with the GM1 using is no more prone to focus error than a lens with a focus ring. You may not be as fast at doing that but the tools to assess whether you have focused correctly are identical.

Manual focus on the the GM1 is with a dial but the touch screen is still very useful because you can quickly specify the area you want to enlarge. So, touch focus area, use the four way controller to adjust focus and use focus peaking to know where you are in focus.

There are many choices of lenses that can be used on the camera and all have focus rings except for this kit lens. 90% of the time or more people won't be using this lens for manual focus so why make the lens bigger than it needs to be? If you want an different experience than the target market simply use a different lens.

Most of the focus by wire lenses aren't great. With the gm1 you can move in small increments or hold down on the control and move the focus in large increments.

(Argh, I can't unquote text above for some reason. The current editing style on DPR is pretty bad, but usually I can manipulate it until it works. But this time my text stays red no matter what I do, so I'll just quote and reply with blocks of text. I hope my post is at least somewhat readable)

I think it's fair to say we have different focusing styles, or different subjects. I shoot a lot of long exposures at night, and frequently bump against the limits of the sensor. For me, easy focusing movements are not just about convenience, but also accuracy. I get to compare many different focus settings. I then end up at some focus after getting past noise, coma, flare, and even chromatic aberration. Having to do it with an inferior mechnical (or even non-mechanical) interface would mean the process becoming so involved, I basically would not get the picture.

Have you bought the GM1? If you have it and say it's dial MF, then okay. But I went by the reviews, and the ones I read only mentioned touchscreen MF. I do agree that the by-wire lenses aren't the best for MF, but they do give a degree of mechanical feedback, which my Pen's dials will not.

Like I think I said in another post, there are lenses that have a 12mm setting, but they all cost over 500 euros (with the exception of the huge 12-50). I agree completely with you about the primary target market of this lens. However, omitting features easily becomes a race to the bottom. You can exclude hoods, hood threads, manual focus rings, manual zoom, filter threads, rear caps, body caps, electrical contacts, support for most cameras and who knows what else because of a perceived target market.

Every time they exclude a minority of buyers they risk leaving more people out in the cold. They owe nothing to the users, but if the pool of excluded people grows large enough, they risk losing money despite pleasing the target market. The people with very specific requirements are usually the same people who buy many lenses, making this more likely.

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TEBnewyork
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Re: no focus ring
In reply to Iskender, 7 months ago

The implementation for this lens on the GM1 is actually better for night shooting than most of the other m4/3 cameras I've owned. If you go back in time to the G1 and it's kit lens, it was completely impossible to do night shooting. The lens had no way to tell you that it was set for near or far farcus. It was too dark for CDAF and there was nothing on the screen to indicate where you were in the focus rrange. You absolutely needed a legacy manual lens. Fast forward to the GM1 (and yes I do own it).

I looked on YouTube and there is a video demonstrating how to manual focus on the GM1 kit lens combo using the touch screen. For that method I agree that it might seem imprecise and after watching that video, I would not use it that way.

If you want to manually focus with the kit lens here is what i would do. First I have enlarge focus area and focus peaking both on.

1) touch 4 way controller on left to select focus area and either touch screen or move box to where you want it to be. And use center menu/set button to lock that.

2) now when you touch either the left or right of the controller you will see a focus scale from infinity to close. You can move in single small increments with a click left or right or faster by holding down on left ror right. At the same time you have an enlarged box and focus peeking showing you when you are in focus.

I stick by my opinion that this is OK for this lens and camera combo. I also, stick by my opinion that this way if manual shooting is no less accurate And in fact you can move in smaller increments than possible with some of the other m4/3 lenses with their focus ring. But, with the ability to enlarge screen and use focus peaking both ways get you what you need.

I think ink the answer is that you need to use it yourself to get a feel for how well it works.

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Goffen
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That i could not resist buying it /nt
In reply to eastvillager, 7 months ago
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Iskender
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Re: no focus ring
In reply to TEBnewyork, 7 months ago

TEBnewyork wrote:

I stick by my opinion that this is OK for this lens and camera combo. I also, stick by my opinion that this way if manual shooting is no less accurate And in fact you can move in smaller increments than possible with some of the other m4/3 lenses with their focus ring. But, with the ability to enlarge screen and use focus peaking both ways get you what you need.

I think ink the answer is that you need to use it yourself to get a feel for how well it works.

Since I now know you own the combo, there's no sense in me telling you how the camera works: you obviously know more about that.

It's still a mess for the rest of the system though: my P1 likely cannot focus manually with this lens, and it's not yet known if it will get a firmware upgrade.

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CharlesTokyo
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No english menus
In reply to eastvillager, 7 months ago

The models sold in Japan aren't switchable to English.

Also, I couldn't figure out if it's possible to display clipping on the live view like Olympus. Is that possible on the Panasonic cameras?

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TEBnewyork
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Re: no focus ring
In reply to Iskender, 7 months ago

Iskender wrote:

Since I now know you own the combo, there's no sense in me telling you how the camera works: you obviously know more about that.

It's still a mess for the rest of the system though: my P1 likely cannot focus manually with this lens, and it's not yet known if it will get a firmware upgrade.

Probably won't be able to use the lens but there are 6 other lenses in the same focal length range in the m4/3 system. Which just leads me back to the point that this lens was designed for this camera and with so many other choices out there IMHO that is an acceptable decision by Panny.

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Eric Nepean
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That I don't own one ..... NT
In reply to eastvillager, 7 months ago
No text.
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Narcosynthesis
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Re: What is your biggest disappointment about GM1?
In reply to eastvillager, 7 months ago

The only real question I have is how the electronic shutter handles the very high speeds - as mentioned if it still takes 1/50th to read the entire image then it really does lose a lot of practicality in terms of freezing motion or stopping camera shake with long lenses.

In reality though, most of the complaints here are about things that were fairly obviously tradeoffs to get the size down - a more limited shutter comes from reducing the bulk of it more, the lack of optional EVF and hot shoe another method to reduce the physical components and hardware needed (not to mention the fact that the vast percentage of GM1 owners will never even think about reaching for an external flash anyway). The GM1 is a camera where they have gone for the smallest physical size possible, so there will always be tradeoffs. If you want all the missing features, then why aren't you buying the GX7 instead? Six months ago were were applauding it for its compact size...

Oh, there is one problem I do have... It does make an awkward looking combination with the mkI 20mm f1.7, aesthetically they just don't really work together...

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snack
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Re: no focus ring
In reply to Iskender, 7 months ago

Iskender wrote:


It's still a mess for the rest of the system though: my P1 likely cannot focus manually with this lens, and it's not yet known if it will get a firmware upgrade.

So don't buy it, or get a Panasonic body to use it on.  Your argument is pointless.  The lens, as well as the GM1 work flawlessly together...the lens works flawlessly on my GX7.  I'm totally happy about it.  Sorry if you're not.  Get over it.

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wolfie
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Isn't it too small to have anything big to be disappointing ? (nt)
In reply to eastvillager, 7 months ago

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ApertureAcolyte
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No HOTSHOE, no EVF options? (nt)
In reply to eastvillager, 7 months ago

eastvillager wrote:

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nickthetasmaniac
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Re: What is your biggest disappointment about GM1?
In reply to eastvillager, 7 months ago

Would have liked to see a more enthusiast-oriented user interface - ie. ditch the flash to make room, move the mode-dial to the left, have a EV-comp dial where the mode-dial is, and a thumb-level command-dial just above the movie button. And yes, include the grip in the bundle, it's already a pricey camera.

I'd also liked to have seen a GM1 + Lumix 14/f2.5 kit, as this seems like the perfect compact combo to me...

But these are things very specific for me - for the target market I think Panasonic nailed it.

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Iskender
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Re: no focus ring
In reply to snack, 7 months ago

snack wrote:

Iskender wrote:

It's still a mess for the rest of the system though: my P1 likely cannot focus manually with this lens, and it's not yet known if it will get a firmware upgrade.

So don't buy it, or get a Panasonic body to use it on. Your argument is pointless. The lens, as well as the GM1 work flawlessly together...the lens works flawlessly on my GX7. I'm totally happy about it. Sorry if you're not. Get over it.

Oh, I'll get over it fine. But you shouldn't dismiss someone's complaint as "pointless" just because things work for you. How would it feel, were I to dismiss any of your complaints about the system as pointless? I don't think it'd be a big help.

A general example: I could say that the complaints of Panasonic users about the lack of Olympus lens IS are pointless. Or that people who have bought the top-of-the-range GH3 shouldn't complain, because they can buy the GX7 for IBIS, nevermind the fact that it doesn't have the same capability, and so on. It's basically saying that the user is at fault, because they didn't spend another 500 euros just to get basic functionality. It's a good line of thought for the manufacturers, but not that good for users.

It's wonderful that this system has two manufacturers (plus the lens-only ones). It's what has made it the most complete mirrorless system. However, special requirements in a lens make it work less as a system, and therefore weaker. The system works well for both you and me. However, it could still work even better, and that should be the goal.

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happypoppeye
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Re: No english menus
In reply to CharlesTokyo, 7 months ago

CharlesTokyo wrote:

The models sold in Japan aren't switchable to English.

Also, I couldn't figure out if it's possible to display clipping on the live view like Olympus. Is that possible on the Panasonic cameras?

かではありません。..けれども私がとにかく返事するであろうと思いました。

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jeffharris
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Re: What is your biggest disappointment about GM1?
In reply to eastvillager, 7 months ago

eastvillager wrote:

If I want a black one, I'll have to order from Canada?

That's what I did to get my black GX7.

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berni29
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Re: What is your biggest disappointment about GM1?
In reply to jeffharris, 7 months ago

Hi

Actually I think the interface is very enthusiast orientated. More so than my EM-5 in some ways. I find the parameters very easy to change on the GM1. You have to try it to appreciate it.

I would say that if the small size is not a meaningful advantage to you then go for something else.

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CharlesTokyo
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Re: No english menus
In reply to happypoppeye, 7 months ago

happypoppeye wrote:

CharlesTokyo wrote:

The models sold in Japan aren't switchable to English.

Also, I couldn't figure out if it's possible to display clipping on the live view like Olympus. Is that possible on the Panasonic cameras?

かではありません。..けれども私がとにかく返事するであろうと思いました。

日本語を読めるけど早く設定を変更したいと大変です。電池も違うし嫌いだけど。英語のメニューがない言い訳はないと思います。

グーグルで翻訳しましたか?なんか変な日本語です。

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FrankS009
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The accessory grip is expensive.
In reply to eastvillager, 7 months ago

The optional grip is $120.00 in Canada. That is a lot of money.

It has been included in a special deal with the camera for nothing in the UK.

F.

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