What is your biggest disappointment about GM1?

Started 10 months ago | Discussions
Dheorl
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Re: What is your biggest disappointment about GM1?
In reply to Dr_Jon, 10 months ago

Dr_Jon wrote:

Really? More pixels in less space, that should be worse not better... Plus the Sony sensor seems to use more pixels to make the video image than the Panasonic cameras, which should be worse still...

In silicon engineering it's not about the size of the features but the overall size of the chip that determines power consumption. Also I've seen no evidence of the Sony camera using a higher sampling rate.

As for heat dissipation I've lost count of the number of times I've heard about sony cameras overheating, never once heard of a Panasonic camera doing that. Now I'm not saying the RX100 overheats, just that's it seems to be something Panasonic are more concerned about.

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Iskender
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Re: no focus ring
In reply to TEBnewyork, 10 months ago

TEBnewyork wrote:

For the GM1 I'd rather keep the lens really small and not have the focus ring. Honestly how many people using a kit lens want to manually focus it? Primes missing a focus ring would be a bigger deal.

I use manual focus all the time, and a lot of my lenses are kit lenses or de-kitted lenses. Why wouldn't I want to focus my lenses manually?

The 12-32 had the potential to be great for me: if it becomes available as de-kitted like the 14/2.5, I could have bought a wide-angle zoom on the cheap. The only comparable option is the 12-50, and it's so huge it's a carry-nowhere lens.

You never know when you need manual focus. It's true you can use another cheap kit, but a 14-4x won't work if you need the wide angle end, or if you've brought just the GM1 kit because it's so small (which is the point of the camera).

I realise Panasonic have produced a lens here which will work well for a lot of people. However, I believe the system is weakened when standard features like manual focus are left out. When lenses start coming bundled with a lot of "ifs", an increasing amount of people will be turned away.

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Dr_Jon
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Re: What is your biggest disappointment about GM1?
In reply to Dheorl, 10 months ago

For the record chip size isn't a big factor in power consumption, the main factors are how lossy the process is (that it's manufactured in), how fast it's clocked and how much of the chip is clocked on average, so using clock-gating to reduce the amount of circuitry that's active is a common power reduction technique. A big chip in image-processing terms means big pixels, not more transistors (which is different to most other big chips where they do put a lot more transistors in).

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Dheorl
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Re: What is your biggest disappointment about GM1?
In reply to Dr_Jon, 10 months ago

Dr_Jon wrote:

For the record chip size isn't a big factor in power consumption, the main factors are how lossy the process is (that it's manufactured in), how fast it's clocked and how much of the chip is clocked on average, so using clock-gating to reduce the amount of circuitry that's active is a common power reduction technique. A big chip in image-processing terms means big pixels, not more transistors (which is different to most other big chips where they do put a lot more transistors in).

I'm wondering why if your so well versed in this you questioned higher pixel densities requiring more power.

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TonyinJapan
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Re: What is your biggest disappointment about GM1?
In reply to Dr_Jon, 10 months ago

Dr_Jon wrote:

I debated changing my RX100 for one, but decided not to as...

(1) No 1080/50p video (I suspect this has much more to do with Panasonic's processor being higher power than Sony's, rather than the sensor size difference).

(2) The RX100 has less moire (in video) than my GH3 (even when shot really flat), so is a handy alternative for some situations. (I'm pretty confident Sony are using all the pixels, Panasonic certainly aren't.)

(3) No EVF, that's the obvious step-up from the RX100.

(4) Slow GM1 mechanical shutter - but how good/bad is this? I don't know. As the flash-sync is very poor it suggests it will be bad for anything moving. (Meaning the read-out time is slow, no good having 1/16000 shutter speed if the bottom of the sensor does that 1/50 sec, or whatever, after the top.)

(5) RX100 lens is very sharp, plus fast at the wide end (even allowing for m43 sensor size it's still faster than the GM1 kit lens).

Don’t forget the RX100 only goes to 28mm eq. whereas the kit lens of the GM1 goes to 24mm eq. which is a big difference when shooting wide, especially for landscapes. Personally, if I was to choose between either faster aperture at wide-end or wider, I would choose wider, because for shooting landscapes you would generally appreciate the ability to go wider and use more DOF by stopping down to have a sharper image across the whole frame.

(6) RX100 is shirt-pocketable.

(7) RX100 AF is lightning-fast, however good the GM1 AF is it won't be usably better in real-world situations.

RX100 AF is fast-ish. I wouldn’t categorise it as ‘lighting fast’. I think both Panasonic and Olympus are slightly ahead with AF speed since they had a head start in mirrorless development (even their latest A7’s AF doesn’t feel as nippy as the latest offerings from m43). GM1’s AF is actually even faster that my EM5 which is no slouch itself.

The GM1 does look very cool though, but not a RX100-beater...

Regards,
Tony
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TonyinJapan
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Re: What is your biggest disappointment about GM1?
In reply to KwhyChang, 10 months ago

KwhyChang wrote:

Of course this is all personal.

In order of importance to me.

1. Mechanical shutter tops out at 1/500... although I do like that it has a silent shutter option for static subjects

I think the silent shutter is a really great feature. I used it over the weekend for shooting in an event and it was a great shooting experience that I could be extremely discreet.

2. A big reason to buy this cam would be the lens, but the lens has no mechanical focus ring and offers little quality to µ4/3 lens lineup, IMO

3. Weak flash and no flash shoe. My E-P3, which I prefer as my carry everywhere, has 10 meter flash, Gm1 has a 4 meter flash (DPR specs)

4. No grip. This was my main beef with the PL3 and PM1. Granted I'll use my Flip Bac solution, but I often hate these cost cutting tactics

5. Not having all colors in all markets. I shouldn't have to buy a camera from halfway around the world because of a stupid marketing dildo

6. No way to attach an EVF. There are times when I want a viewfinder with MY portable. I can do that with the E-P3

7. Although you can use it with lots of other lenses, it would be unbalanced IMO with most

I was really excited about this camera, especially after seeing it won Gear of the Year, Part2. However it, and the GX7, EM1, made me rethink what I spend my money on and what I get back for it. Decided to stay with E-P3 as my take everywhere. Although it's not as small, it feels better to hold. Subsequently, I ordered the Sony A7 and am absolutely ecstatic. But that's a personal move on my part to reclaim my love for my full frame gear in a more lightweight package.

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Dave

Interesting that you have the E-P3 and EM-5. I also have the E-P1 and love the ergonomics and feel of the camera. Feels really different when holding the E-P1 compared to the GM1.

Congrats on getting the Sony A7. I had a try in-store the other day and was impressed, although for my shooting, I have decided that the EM-5 is my limit for serious shooting, and have looked the other way to have a more portable set-up to complement it (with the GM1).

Regards,
Tony
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Rob Sims
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Re: What is your biggest disappointment about GM1?
In reply to Willing, 10 months ago

Willing wrote:

Sean Nelson wrote:

They have crippled the camera's video capabilities by not supporting 1080p60. This is said to be due to the camera's not being able to dissipate enough heat because of its small size, but my Sony RX100 manages this feat without any issues.

It is because the Sony's sensor size is only 1"

Can't be the whole story.  There are other larger sensor cameras that can do 1080p60 with no overheating problems.  Heck, Sony does three (RX1, A7, A7R) which all have sensors 4x as large and don't appear to have much space for cooling.

Perhaps additional cost for the processing engine vs. target market?

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KwhyChang
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Re: What is your biggest disappointment about GM1?
In reply to TonyinJapan, 10 months ago

TonyinJapan wrote:

KwhyChang wrote:

Of course this is all personal.

In order of importance to me.

1. Mechanical shutter tops out at 1/500... although I do like that it has a silent shutter option for static subjects

I think the silent shutter is a really great feature. I used it over the weekend for shooting in an event and it was a great shooting experience that I could be extremely discreet.

2. A big reason to buy this cam would be the lens, but the lens has no mechanical focus ring and offers little quality to µ4/3 lens lineup, IMO

3. Weak flash and no flash shoe. My E-P3, which I prefer as my carry everywhere, has 10 meter flash, Gm1 has a 4 meter flash (DPR specs)

4. No grip. This was my main beef with the PL3 and PM1. Granted I'll use my Flip Bac solution, but I often hate these cost cutting tactics

5. Not having all colors in all markets. I shouldn't have to buy a camera from halfway around the world because of a stupid marketing dildo

6. No way to attach an EVF. There are times when I want a viewfinder with MY portable. I can do that with the E-P3

7. Although you can use it with lots of other lenses, it would be unbalanced IMO with most

I was really excited about this camera, especially after seeing it won Gear of the Year, Part2. However it, and the GX7, EM1, made me rethink what I spend my money on and what I get back for it. Decided to stay with E-P3 as my take everywhere. Although it's not as small, it feels better to hold. Subsequently, I ordered the Sony A7 and am absolutely ecstatic. But that's a personal move on my part to reclaim my love for my full frame gear in a more lightweight package.

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Dave

Interesting that you have the E-P3 and EM-5. I also have the E-P1 and love the ergonomics and feel of the camera. Feels really different when holding the E-P1 compared to the GM1.

Congrats on getting the Sony A7. I had a try in-store the other day and was impressed, although for my shooting, I have decided that the EM-5 is my limit for serious shooting, and have looked the other way to have a more portable set-up to complement it (with the GM1).

Regards,
Tony
--------
http://www.flickr.com/photos/26154011@N07/

Thanks for the nice sentiments, Tony. Actually, I should thank you also for your early posts. You were one of the first to post about the Gm1 which was helpful for people here.

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Dave

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Dr_Jon
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Re: What is your biggest disappointment about GM1?
In reply to TonyinJapan, 10 months ago

I wouldn't argue with any of your points. The 24mm is certainly an advantage, although I find the f1.8 at the wide end to be very useful in dull conditions (the trick is to remember to shoot wide when the light is low, then if it's not tight enough to use the 20MP to zoom by cropping).

I've never seen the RX100 AF as a limitation in any way speed-wise, "lightning fast" might be overdoing it a bit, but I did do a quick test while writing my post and it focused almost instantly. I will agree others may be faster, but I don't think it was an issue anyone should worry about (which other posts seemed to suggest). It also has an AF assist light for when it's really dull, although obviously that slows things down a bit.

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duartix
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Re: What is your biggest disappointment about GM1?
In reply to eastvillager, 10 months ago

Not owning it.

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Dr_Jon
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Re: What is your biggest disappointment about GM1?
In reply to Dheorl, 10 months ago

I don't think the pixel density will come into it, the pixels don't do much and higher density just means shorter interconnect so lower capacitances to drive so less power. I was surprised the GM1 didn't go 50p/60p but would assume the main power consumption items are the high speed interfaces off the sensor and the processing work in the Venus chip.

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Logan3-1639
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Re: What is your biggest disappointment about GM1?
In reply to webber15, 10 months ago

webber15 wrote:

The biggest disappointment is your negative question...you know what your getting before hand...as for image quality,not much difference between similar size sensor cams...

Emphatically disagree. You only "know what you're getting before hand" with respect to specifications and physical appearance, and that's true of any and all technology you buy. When you actually use the product, you discover things you like and/or don't like about it, which you couldn’t possibly have known while just looking at it in a catalog or in a store or even in a professional review, such as the reviews published on sites like DPR. Why do you think people recommend that you visit a camera store and play with the gear you're contemplating buying?

I do a lot of research before committing to buying technology, especially cameras and gear, and I always look at negative user reviews, because that's where I might learn something important that could matter to me, which the manufacturer's description of the item (which was probably written by the product's marketing department) or the glowing reviews did not reveal.

As a former Nikon shooter, I was on the verge of "upgrading" to a FF D600, before I decided to change to M43. I visited Amazon and found many one-star user reviews claiming the D600 had a sensor dust/oil spot issue. There were too many of these negative reviews to ignore, and I the only way I could have known about this issue was by seeking comments from disappointed/unhappy end users.

So I totally understand and support the OP's question, and I think it's a great way to gather information that will help make a buying decision.

~Ed

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hto2008
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No body only option
In reply to eastvillager, 10 months ago

No body only option so we can use a 20mm f1.7 on it while waiting for any other possible upcoming prime lens tailored for GM1 series....

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webber15
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Re: What is your biggest disappointment about GM1?
In reply to Logan3-1639, 10 months ago

.I purchase my cameras at dealerships and try them out comprehensively at the store,narrowing it down to two chosen products,and compare side by side before purchasing what's right for me...I've been known to spend approx 4-5hours at the store before making my final choice...so if you still buy the "wrong camera" I have no sympathy for you...as for image quality being subjective and can be altered to suit your taste you really have no excuses unless you cannot get to a store to try out products before you buy...b.t.w. I purchased an e.m.5...I'm a happy bunny...

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snack
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Re: no focus ring
In reply to Iskender, 10 months ago

Iskender wrote:

TEBnewyork wrote:

For the GM1 I'd rather keep the lens really small and not have the focus ring. Honestly how many people using a kit lens want to manually focus it? Primes missing a focus ring would be a bigger deal.

I use manual focus all the time, and a lot of my lenses are kit lenses or de-kitted lenses. Why wouldn't I want to focus my lenses manually?

The 12-32 had the potential to be great for me: if it becomes available as de-kitted like the 14/2.5, I could have bought a wide-angle zoom on the cheap. The only comparable option is the 12-50, and it's so huge it's a carry-nowhere lens.

You never know when you need manual focus. It's true you can use another cheap kit, but a 14-4x won't work if you need the wide angle end, or if you've brought just the GM1 kit because it's so small (which is the point of the camera).

I realise Panasonic have produced a lens here which will work well for a lot of people. However, I believe the system is weakened when standard features like manual focus are left out. When lenses start coming bundled with a lot of "ifs", an increasing amount of people will be turned away.

You do realize that you can focus the 12-32 manually using the controls on the back.  No, not as convenient as traditional manual focus, but possible.  The latest firmware update for the GX7 adds manual focus with the 12-32.

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jimrpdx
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Re: What is your biggest disappointment about GM1?
In reply to Rob Sims, 10 months ago

They didn't send me one to test, then forget they'd done it.   Really, what else can I complain about on a camera that isn't available yet except that?  It's on my list, though probably several months away (behind moving costs and medical bills, sadly).

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enrique santa
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None.
In reply to eastvillager, 10 months ago
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joerawr
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No IBIS, sticker shock, and I hope for a kit with just the 15mm F/1.7.
In reply to eastvillager, 10 months ago

And no O.I.S. for the 15mm...

Also, with the grip, it's really only a hair smaller than the E-PM2 (body only vs body only),  but much more expensive.  In body wifi is a big plus, but that's a different thread...

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Iskender
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Re: no focus ring
In reply to snack, 9 months ago

snack wrote:

You do realize that you can focus the 12-32 manually using the controls on the back. No, not as convenient as traditional manual focus, but possible. The latest firmware update for the GX7 adds manual focus with the 12-32.

Yes, but I've heard nothing about how it will work on Olympus models yet. Some lenses, like the 3D lens, have only had rare and obscure support on Olympus.

Not to mention those fully-digital controls are likely to be even less accurate than normal by-wire focus. Which is a significant problem, since accuracy is what manual focus is all about. It's good that they've provided some way of doing it, but it's clearly an "emergency only" feature on this lens.

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TEBnewyork
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Re: no focus ring
In reply to Iskender, 9 months ago

Iskender wrote:

Not to mention those fully-digital controls are likely to be even less accurate than normal by-wire focus. Which is a significant problem, since accuracy is what manual focus is all about. It's good that they've provided some way of doing it, but it's clearly an "emergency only" feature on this lens.

I have no idea of what you mean by this. You have enlarged view and focus peaking how is having a dial on back then any different than on the lens where you are using the same cues to figure out if you are in focus.

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