...put your money where your mouth is

Started Nov 11, 2013 | Discussions
PixelMover
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...put your money where your mouth is
Nov 11, 2013

...if all these backseat 'camera designers' and 'managers' would actually put their money where their mouth is...

Why don't you start your own DSLR camera company.
You all seem to know exactly what 'we' want.
You know so much better than Nikon.
You all think you can make a better, smaller, faster Df for a grand less at half the weight, 2 card slots and still make a profit.

You know all the lenses we want and you know how much cheaper they should be.
Can't wait! Bring. It. On.

DO IT. Kickstart it. Ask Dragon's Den. Get a sugardaddy. Go and show us how brilliant you are and how stupid Nikon is. Aptina will happily sell you sensors if you buy enough.

I dare you to even design one on paper that actually works and fits all the electronics in a smaller body that is still simple enough to produce/assemble and still sturdy and durable.

How about you gut your D600 and try to squeeze all of that into a Nikon FM, since that is what you all seem to think Nikon should've done. Have a go. It'll be fun.

Do you guys REALLY think Nikon didn't consider ALL those things you are crying, cursing and moaning about? If it's not there, it is not there for a very good reason.

But if you are so convinced you can do better, let me get you started by suggesting some brand names:

Nican

Cakon

Leinon

Sonasonic

Olyny (my favourite)

Go on then.... off you go. Make history instead of hysteria.

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Take pictures like Jiro makes Sushi.

Nikon D600 Nikon Df
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Drowsy Shah
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Re: ...put your money where your mouth is
In reply to PixelMover, Nov 11, 2013

How about "Pantex"?

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sshoihet
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Re: ...put your money where your mouth is
In reply to PixelMover, Nov 11, 2013

Yes, I'd like to see that as well, a few people have actually put in some effort to try that but most of their designs have fallen flat because they don't understand how the average person uses a camera, they can only think of the manner in which they use it and how they would like it to work for them.

Most of the people posting their complaints have no idea about marketing research, product design, prototyping, testing, life cycle management, QC/QA and just about anything else that takes a product from an idea to the store shelf.  If they did, they'd realize that every design has some compromises that have to be made and there are usually some very good reasons that they didn't get the product they wanted; either it was too expensive, too difficult/unreliable, or not desired by enough users.

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JimPearce
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Really?
In reply to PixelMover, Nov 11, 2013

Even the smallest detail of every one of Nikon's cameras is thought through to that extent? Not likely. I agree that there's been some gratuitous criticism of the Df, including some sill "Nikon should have..." lines. But some of the reaction to the criticisms has been equally over the top. And this is the silliest yet. Who would be foolish enough to start a camera company now, anyway?

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Jim

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Drowsy Shah
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Re: Really?
In reply to JimPearce, Nov 11, 2013

JimPearce wrote:

Who would be foolish enough to start a camera company now, anyway?

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Jim

RED.

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reginalddwight
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Re: Really?
In reply to Drowsy Shah, Nov 11, 2013

Drowsy Shah wrote:

JimPearce wrote:

Who would be foolish enough to start a camera company now, anyway?

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Jim

RED.

GoPro

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PixelMover
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Re: Really?
In reply to JimPearce, Nov 11, 2013

JimPearce wrote:

...Who would be foolish enough to start a camera company now, anyway?

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Jim

Actually now would be a very good time. Digital technology has pretty much matured, sensors aren't rare and exotic anymore and you wouldn't have to spend millions on R&D trying to (re)invent the wheel. You can pick and choose parts and make your ideal 'Frankencamera'

If you truly know what 'everybody' wants and how to make it cheap, you might just catch a lot of fence-sitters, brand-swappers and GAS customers. Like Apple did.. No one knew thay wanted an iPhone until Apple made one. Not that many people wnated a digital retro rangefinder until the X100 came out.

If a new company would come up with, say, a perfect. desirable, MF-style DSLR with a good sensor, purely for MF, with, say a set of 3 modern MF oprimized prime lenses (25/2, 50/2, 100/2), I wouldn't be dropping Nikon for it but it would sure get my ineterest and I'd likely buy the set for fun.

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Take pictures like Jiro makes Sushi.

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marcio_napoli
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Re: Really?
In reply to reginalddwight, Nov 11, 2013

Whoa !

Talking about RED, those guys have major b@lls.

Anyone who has ever heard stories about their beginning, will be trully amazed.

These guys just stepped into the fierce, extremely demanding, high stardand world of cinema products (not only cameras), and just after few years are a major player, competing against the likes of Sony, Panavision...

These guys rule!

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Marcio Napoli

www.marcionapoli.com

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PixelMover
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Re: Really?
In reply to JimPearce, Nov 11, 2013

JimPearce wrote:

Even the smallest detail of every one of Nikon's cameras is thought through to that extent? Not likely.

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Jim

Of course it is. Do you have any idea of the investment in capital, time and resources (both material and human) involved in developing a new DSLR? Most DSLRs take 2-3 years from concept to launch. Do you really think they would leave anything to chance if that much is at stake?

The main reason most DSLRs are incremental copies of each other with slightly better specs is BECAUSE everything is thought through hunddreds of times because you can't afford to muck it up. And if you DO... well, see what wrath Nikon incurred witht he D600 oil spot disaster...

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PixelMover
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Re: Really?
In reply to marcio_napoli, Nov 11, 2013

Not only that, when production started scaling up they actualy started lowering the price and passed the savings on to their customers who were happily on a waiting list for the full price...

THAT s how you create brand loyalty.

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unknown member
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+ 1: Black Magic Cinema Camera Says Hello
In reply to Drowsy Shah, Nov 11, 2013

Drowsy Shah wrote:

JimPearce wrote:

Who would be foolish enough to start a camera company now, anyway?

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Jim

RED.

And they're landing magazine covers like crazy.

See also: Blackmagic Design.

What are the common threads, here?

(1) Motion + Stills from the ground up

(2) Mirrorless / EVF

(3) Highly modular design and project-adaptable form factor: storage, I/O, grip all highly configurable. Scale it up for major motion picture principal photography, scale it down for super-16 indie location scouting

(4) Any lens mount you want: ARRI P/L to EOS-EF to m4/3

(5) Direct compatibility with industry standard third party software and support--no kludgy Adobe-reverse-engineering NEFs-because-Nikon-won't-cooperate.

Looks like a fine, fine future, to me. Probably less so to CaNikon--especially Nikon.

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sshoihet
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Re: Really?
In reply to PixelMover, Nov 11, 2013

PixelMover wrote:

Of course it is. Do you have any idea of the investment in capital, time and resources (both material and human) involved in developing a new DSLR? Most DSLRs take 2-3 years from concept to launch. Do you really think they would leave anything to chance if that much is at stake?

Exactly and I'm not sure how anyone could think differently.

The main reason most DSLRs are incremental copies of each other with slightly better specs is BECAUSE everything is thought through hunddreds of times because you can't afford to muck it up. And if you DO... well, see what wrath Nikon incurred witht he D600 oil spot disaster...

I don't think people realize how much work is required ever time you make just a little change.  Product supply, engineering documentation, revisions, lead times, change notices, re-testing with the revised component, even just producing the same component with a different supplier can wreak havoc and cause problems with processes and product reliability.

You want to re-use every component/assy that you possibly can because you put a lot of money and work into it and it will be much cheaper and reliable than producing a new component/assy. R&D, testing and tooling are all expensive. Using the same component again will generally result in better volume costs, fewer problems and lower inventory costs. Simple changes can be very expensive when some issue sneaks in that you fail to re-test for; solutions can be very time consuming and costly in both the required fix and brand loyalty.

No company intentionally produces a sub-par product or reduces QA/QC to save money, pretty much every manufacturer realizes that product failures cost much much more to fix than it does to solve a problem in the design stages or fix a non conformance before the product leaves the manf. plant.  Usually, the problem is that the sales/marketing team has a product release date that doesn't allow enough time for sufficient prototype/testing stages and they either release it with known problems or make changes at late stages that don't allow for sufficient reliability testing.

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JimPearce
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Red was founded in 1999...
In reply to Drowsy Shah, Nov 11, 2013

The ignorance on this board continues to astound me.

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Jim

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marcio_napoli
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Re: + 1: Black Magic Cinema Camera Says Hello
In reply to MarkJH, Nov 11, 2013

Hi Mark

Yeah, totally! Black Magic also rules!

When I first read about their "consumer" oriented model (yet still delivering RAW video), I was blown up !

The only thing I believe was a true bummer was the crop factor... if I recall correctly, it's 2.7x, rendering still photography lenses almost unusable (at least WAs).

But their cinema oriented version, with a large sensor, is a force to behold. They'll grab a lot of smaller production houses in very little time.

PS: sorry guys for the off topic chat.

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Marcio Napoli

www.marcionapoli.com

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Red G8R
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Re: ...put your money where your mouth is
In reply to PixelMover, Nov 11, 2013

PixelMover wrote:

...if all these backseat 'camera designers' and 'managers' would actually put their money where their mouth is...

Why don't you start your own DSLR camera company.
You all seem to know exactly what 'we' want.
You know so much better than Nikon.
You all think you can make a better, smaller, faster Df for a grand less at half the weight, 2 card slots and still make a profit.

You know all the lenses we want and you know how much cheaper they should be.
Can't wait! Bring. It. On.

DO IT. Kickstart it. Ask Dragon's Den. Get a sugardaddy. Go and show us how brilliant you are and how stupid Nikon is. Aptina will happily sell you sensors if you buy enough.

I dare you to even design one on paper that actually works and fits all the electronics in a smaller body that is still simple enough to produce/assemble and still sturdy and durable.

How about you gut your D600 and try to squeeze all of that into a Nikon FM, since that is what you all seem to think Nikon should've done. Have a go. It'll be fun.

Do you guys REALLY think Nikon didn't consider ALL those things you are crying, cursing and moaning about? If it's not there, it is not there for a very good reason.

But if you are so convinced you can do better, let me get you started by suggesting some brand names:

Nican

Cakon

Leinon

Sonasonic

Olyny (my favourite)

Go on then.... off you go. Make history instead of hysteria.

-- hide signature --

Take pictures like Jiro makes Sushi.

Please send this to Thom H.

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Peter
Ontario, Canada

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TOF guy
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Of course people should feel free to express ...
In reply to PixelMover, Nov 11, 2013

what they think of the latest Nikon release, positive and negatives.

Are you saying that members should not comment unless they start a company? Does that apply to all products we buy ? So we shouldn't comment on, say, GM having sold many cars with poor reliability records for years unless we're about to start our own car business

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Thierry - posted as regular forum member

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user_name
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Re: ...put your money where your mouth is
In reply to PixelMover, Nov 11, 2013

Given the revenue that the camera companies are generating lately I think we have a better business chance selling lipstick for pigs.

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JimPearce
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That's right sshoihet...
In reply to sshoihet, Nov 11, 2013

And the Df is the ultimate "parts bin special". You guys remind me of all of the lectures I listened to from buyers from Fortune 500 retailers when I was a manufacturing CEO.

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Jim

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Joseph
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According to your logic...
In reply to PixelMover, Nov 11, 2013

... we can't criticize anything because "we haven't done it". Does it make sense?

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sshoihet
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Re: That's right sshoihet...
In reply to JimPearce, Nov 11, 2013

JimPearce wrote:

And the Df is the ultimate "parts bin special". You guys remind me of all of the lectures I listened to from buyers from Fortune 500 retailers when I was a manufacturing CEO.

That sounds incredibly boring

The opposite end of the scale is a camera that has all new parts, has a much longer design/testing cycle, likely has at least one reliability issue if you do release it and costs so much that you'll never be able to sell one so sales/marketing cancels the project.

People continually ask why Nikon did something a certain way and suggest an alternative. Most likely, they considered that and there were a good reasons why they made the design compromises that they did.

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