D610 vs. 5D Mark III

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ron purdy
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Re: D610 vs. 5D Mark III
In reply to qianp2k, 9 months ago

Overall I love the Canon cameras for their functionality and durability. I have published thousands of images with Canon and for the most part, it's been very good.

This is a crop from a recent shot for a book I am working on. ISO 100. It was shot in RAW and converted in ACR. This is obviously a high dynamic range situation I exposed for the islands but had to lighten up shadows to see the boy. The only editing that's been done here was to move the shadow slider and to increase the exposure overall by .3 stops - and as you can see, things got ugly fast.

This is an example of what makes me nervous when shooting cameras with shadow noise issues, and what brought on the Nikon purchase. The Sony sensors are leagues more graceful on shots like this one, where there's no time to get a reflector or add lighting to even out the dynamic range.

In my book, this issue is MUCH more important than, "well gee, I bought the most expensive/sharpest lens I could find. DxO said the 24-70..." Sharpness of lenses/resolution of chip are minor footnotes compared to this, IMO:

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caspianm
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Re: D610 vs. 5D Mark III
In reply to ron purdy, 9 months ago

Which Canon body?

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billythek
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Re: D610 vs. 5D Mark III
In reply to ron purdy, 9 months ago

Can you post your RAW file on Dropbox? Perhaps if the file were processed a little differently...
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ron purdy
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Re: D610 vs. 5D Mark III
In reply to billythek, 9 months ago

I can not post the RAW. It is to be published, and thus is off limits. That is why I cropped it.

Like I said, using ACR, all I did was increase exposure by 0.3 stops, and use the shadow slider (and no, I did not jack it all the way up to 100%.)

This is simply a high DR situation situation which the Canons handle very poorly.

Most of my Canon shots are fine and can be used without issue, but some end up like this. And this is obviously the same issue that the 5D II had, and the same issue which is well documented all over the web.

re caspianm's question: It's an image from the 5D3.

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Timbukto
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Re: D610 vs. 5D Mark III
In reply to ron purdy, 9 months ago

ron purdy wrote:

I can not post the RAW. It is to be published, and thus is off limits. That is why I cropped it.

Like I said, using ACR, all I did was increase exposure by 0.3 stops, and use the shadow slider (and no, I did not jack it all the way up to 100%.)

This is simply a high DR situation situation which the Canons handle very poorly.

Most of my Canon shots are fine and can be used without issue, but some end up like this. And this is obviously the same issue that the 5D II had, and the same issue which is well documented all over the web.

re caspianm's question: It's an image from the 5D3.

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Yes its obvious what the issue is and its the same issue as the 7D or 5DMKII and to a lesser extent the 5DMKIII. The 6D is the first Canon camera that does not grate on me like that...granted it does not have a bottomless pit of DR like the Sony Exmors, but it has *enough* and it does *not* band. It gets uglier quicker than the Sony but it never *bands* which is the #1 characteristic that is subjectively grating on the eyes.

The 6D's DR I would say for most applications is good enough and absolutely workable, the Sony Exmor DR is *so* good however that you can't even take advantage of it with sliders without things getting out of whack and at that point you should work with layers.

So in summary -

Most Canon - pretty bad shadows and banding, limited use of exposure push and shadow pull without brushing all the time.

6D - first Canon that has just enough DR to eek by to the point that it is extremely usable in LR's tone curve adjustments for both exposure push and shadow pulls.

Sony Exmor - Go beyond what is needed for LR's tone adjustments to the point that you need to do layer mask to take 100% advantage of its terrific DR.

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billythek
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Re: D610 vs. 5D Mark III
In reply to ron purdy, 9 months ago

I can not post the RAW. It is to be published, and thus is off limits. That is why I cropped it.

Like I said, using ACR, all I did was increase exposure by 0.3 stops, and use the shadow slider (and no, I did not jack it all the way up to 100%.)

This is simply a high DR situation situation which the Canons handle very poorly.

Most of my Canon shots are fine and can be used without issue, but some end up like this. And this is obviously the same issue that the 5D II had, and the same issue which is well documented all over the web.

re caspianm's question: It's an image from the 5D3.

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There's always an excuse as to why the RAW file can't be made available. Don't you have a dozen other shots similar to this one that aren't going to be published? Post one of those.
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ron purdy
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Re: D610 vs. 5D Mark III
In reply to billythek, 9 months ago

Timbukto : I agree on all points.

Though I do not yet have a 6D. I tried a 6D several times though, and the outer-point AF seemed usable, unlike the 5D2.

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qianp2k
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Re: D610 vs. 5D Mark III
In reply to ron purdy, 9 months ago

ron purdy wrote:

Overall I love the Canon cameras for their functionality and durability. I have published thousands of images with Canon and for the most part, it's been very good.

I noticed you have few test photos in your DPR gallery. It seems that you used to be in the group of advocating no-banding problem

http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/3892554947/photos/1967157/no_banding_2

This is a crop from a recent shot for a book I am working on. ISO 100. It was shot in RAW and converted in ACR. This is obviously a high dynamic range situation I exposed for the islands but had to lighten up shadows to see the boy. The only editing that's been done here was to move the shadow slider and to increase the exposure overall by .3 stops - and as you can see, things got ugly fast.

Do you mind to post CR2 file somewhere and I can show you with proper processing, it will look much better.

A simply way is just to mount a flashgun on your 5DIII and shoot in fill-flash that effectively solves the issue

This is an example of what makes me nervous when shooting cameras with shadow noise issues, and what brought on the Nikon purchase. The Sony sensors are leagues more graceful on shots like this one, where there's no time to get a reflector or add lighting to even out the dynamic range.

I still see sky (highlight) is overblown. So you seem like to expose on highlight and pushing shadows many stops back. Sure Sony sensors are much better if you do this way, but this is not a good way to generate photos.

But that doesn't mean you cannot do with Canon cameras if you exposed properly such as increase +0.5 EV from your original photo, recover highlight in remote scene and push shadow moderately. Need some processing nevertheless.

In my book, this issue is MUCH more important than, "well gee, I bought the most expensive/sharpest lens I could find. DxO said the 24-70..." Sharpness of lenses/resolution of chip are minor footnotes compared to this, IMO:

Both are important. But let me show you how my 5DIII deals with such contrast scene.

OOC RAW

processed

The Victoria Falls at noon near-Equator harsh light. Left side is under very bright sunlight while right side is in pretty dark shadow. By exposing at middle, I am still able to recover highlight at left side and pull shadows at right side and I even recover even more brighter Falls' water with proper processing.

The Victoria Falls, Zambia

A few more samples that all are very contrast scenes. And yeah the peerless 24-70L/2.8 II shines

Cape Town, South Africa

sunset Zambezi River, Zambia without using any filter, taken from a moving fishing boat hand-held

If you believe you can get photos by exposing on highlight and then pushing deep shadows many stops back (where Sony sensor indeed has a big advantage), good luck. This is not a good method and only result surreal looking photo, that is well debated.

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ron purdy
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Re: D610 vs. 5D Mark III
In reply to billythek, 9 months ago

There's always an excuse as to why the RAW file can't be made available. Don't you have a dozen other shots similar to this one that aren't going to be published? Post one of those.
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Bill, have a look at my web site if you doubt that I am shooting for publication.

I can not post RAW files from an outtake from that shoot.

However, this can be duplicated with anyone's 5D3, you don't need mine

Here is what you can do Bill: do you have a 5D3? Find a HIGH D.R file which was exposed for the highlights and bring the shadows up without using N.R. and post a 100% crop or post the RAW file (don't use DPP, as it annoyingly ALWAYS applies N.R. regardless of the settings.)

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qianp2k
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Re: D610 vs. 5D Mark III
In reply to ron purdy, 9 months ago

ron purdy wrote:

There's always an excuse as to why the RAW file can't be made available. Don't you have a dozen other shots similar to this one that aren't going to be published? Post one of those.
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Bill, have a look at my web site if you doubt that I am shooting for publication.

I can not post RAW files from an outtake from that shoot.

However, this can be duplicated with anyone's 5D3, you don't need mine

I am not sure you know post processing well enough.  If you posted that photo in CR2 somewhere I can show you a big difference, seriously.

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ron purdy
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Re: D610 vs. 5D Mark III
In reply to qianp2k, 9 months ago

quinp2k, here is what I just suggested to Bill:

Do you have a 5D3? Find a high D.R. file which was exposed for the highlights and bring the shadows up without using N.R. and post a 100% crop or post the RAW file (don't use DPP, as it annoyingly ALWAYS applies N.R. regardless of the settings.)

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qianp2k
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Re: D610 vs. 5D Mark III
In reply to ron purdy, 9 months ago

ron purdy wrote:

quinp2k, here is what I just suggested to Bill:

Do you have a 5D3?

LOL, did you ever check my samples above, and tons more in my links below?

Find a high D.R. file which was exposed for the highlights and bring the shadows up without using N.R. and post a 100% crop or post the RAW file (don't use DPP, as it annoyingly ALWAYS applies N.R. regardless of the settings.)

All samples I posted above are in pretty contrast scenes.

However in your that particular sample, a) I will not shoot in your way; b) even with that sample taken by you, I will process and will show much better result provided you posted RAW somewhere.

No what a camera can do for you, but what you can do with a camera

BTW, I have reasons why I said I love Canon colors

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shawn in ak
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Re: D610 vs. 5D Mark III
In reply to ron purdy, 9 months ago

The 6D does produce much cleaner files if you need to push shadows than the 5D2/3. Kind of annoying with the 5D3--which is otherwise probably the best DSLR on the market, not counting the single digit pro series.

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ron purdy
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Re: D610 vs. 5D Mark III
In reply to shawn in ak, 9 months ago

qianp2k, yes for a while I was not seeing the banding issue with this camera. That is because Digital Photo Pro does a better job with the noise and banding (it has always on NR) but it also removed a LOT of fine details so I use it only rarely now.
As for your samples, I do not see any 100% crops from recovered shadow areas without NR applied. am I missing something? (maybe I just can't tell as I am now on looking on a cell phone browser at the moment.)

*If you will, please post a RAW file from that one of the van parked in front of the stone wall.

Best.

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qianp2k
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Re: D610 vs. 5D Mark III
In reply to ron purdy, 9 months ago

ron purdy wrote:

qianp2k, yes for a while I was not seeing the banding issue with this camera. That is because Digital Photo Pro does a better job with the noise and banding (it has always on NR) but it also removed a LOT of fine details so I use it only rarely now.

Like many who first tried cameras with Sony sensor, you seem now want to expose on highlight and then pushing up shadows many stops back on contrast scenes and truly believe this is the right way to generate photos. Wrong, most serious photographers will tell you this is not the right way. It also a beaten-to-death debate in DPR forums.

As for your samples, I do not see any 100% crops from recovered shadow areas without NR applied.

I have no problems to show some 100% cropped photos that is still sharp that I showed before. NR applied or not determine by content and light condition. I don't need apply NR or only little if under good light. If you push up shadows 4-6 stops back even without banding it will show ISO 1600 to 6400 eq noises/grains anyway. You will still need to apply NR in that scenario or noises will be very prominent especially if you view in big size.

am I missing something? (maybe I just can't tell as I am now on looking on a cell phone browser at the moment.)

Much better view on a big and high definition monitor. I'd also love to see your D610 samples on my Dell U2713H wide gamut monitor.

It's a key to expose correctly and process properly.

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ron purdy
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Re: D610 vs. 5D Mark III
In reply to qianp2k, 9 months ago

have no problems to show some 100% cropped photos that is still sharp that I showed before. NR applied or not determine by content and light condition. I don't need apply NR or only little if under good light. If you push up shadows 4-6 stops back even without banding it will show ISO 1600 to 6400 eq noises/grains anyway. You will still need to apply NR in that scenario or noises will be very prominent especially if you view in big size.

Please post the RAW file, sir. (the van and the stone wall.)

Thanks.

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qianp2k
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Re: D610 vs. 5D Mark III
In reply to ron purdy, 9 months ago

ron purdy wrote:

have no problems to show some 100% cropped photos that is still sharp that I showed before. NR applied or not determine by content and light condition. I don't need apply NR or only little if under good light. If you push up shadows 4-6 stops back even without banding it will show ISO 1600 to 6400 eq noises/grains anyway. You will still need to apply NR in that scenario or noises will be very prominent especially if you view in big size.

Please post the RAW file, sir. (the van and the stone wall.)

Thanks.

NP, that is a sample of a test shot and can give away. Will do tonight after I return home. You process first. Then if you're interested I can show you how I processed.  It doesn't mean it's the best processing but just for a demo purpose.

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ron purdy
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Re: D610 vs. 5D Mark III
In reply to qianp2k, 9 months ago

Lovely.

As I have said, most of my Canon files are fine, otherwise I would not have been using them all this time.

Probably 95% of the shots on my site are from Canons. So yeah, I am not really knocking Canon, just noticing how much better the Nikon files are.

A few of my 5D files shot for commerce:

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billythek
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Re: D610 vs. 5D Mark III
In reply to ron purdy, 9 months ago

quinp2k, here is what I just suggested to Bill:

Do you have a 5D3? Find a high D.R. file which was exposed for the highlights and bring the shadows up without using N.R. and post a 100% crop or post the RAW file (don't use DPP, as it annoyingly ALWAYS applies N.R. regardless of the settings.)

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ron purdy dot com

I'm not the one having the problem with my post processing technique, you are. Show me a RAW file that you are having problems with and I think I can show you an alternate way to process that avoids the problem. Of course if you blow out the highlights completely you can't recover.
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ron purdy
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Re: D610 vs. 5D Mark III
In reply to billythek, 9 months ago

Trust me Bill, I am not asking you to help me with post processing, bu thanks for the offer

I am simply acknowledging and confirming that (like everyone has said) the Nikon has the better chip and yields better files, hands down. *Especially in difficult lighting situations such as that sample I posted.*

I have now personally confirmed for myself what DxO and the rest of the testers have already documented.

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