Fuji X-E2 image problems

Started 9 months ago | Discussions
bigpigbig
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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to stimpy, 9 months ago

stimpy wrote:

Alessandro63 wrote:

stimpy wrote:
And finally, it's not fake. Lol

Of course the first, and second reaction too, are not to believe: in the same thread you are showing bad problems with the RAWs (still waiting for the possibility to play with those purple-polluted shadows), and incredibly bad jpeg skin treatment.

I'm sorry this is becoming greater than you perhaps expected, but I (and I'm sure many others) wouldn't buy a camera that'd give those results (even in a beta version of LR, about the raw example).

So, it's not personal at all, even if we are indagating for possible user errors. Or camera defects. Or anything. So, you don't need to reshoot: You could just upload the files you have to dropbox or any other place that won't at least strip the data.

The xtrans problems with adobe developers are "micro" problems, what you are showing are gigantic ones, and that jpeg of the hand looks like a P&S result, I bet I can do better with my ageing F31d...

I own an X-E1 and I know what the quality of those files should be.

Here is another example, one last time.

Fuji X-E2 - JPEG from RAW (no processing) Lightroom 5.3 RC

Fuji X-E2 - JPEG with NR set to -2

OM-D E-M5

This post is to show the skin smoothing at 6400 - however you can actually see a little bit of the Lightroom issue as well if you look closely at the forefinger and thumb being covered in a purple shadow. If you open this up in Lightroom and adjust the white balance (cooler) the purple becomes more obvious - this happens with EVERY photo I have taken of people.

I have tried in other RAW editors and the purple is certainly not as problematic, though in some cases purple can still be seen, especially so compared to my Oly. In Silkypix the RAW has False Color setting defaulting to 100 and in many photos reducing this back a bit brings back the magenta splurges, so I am wondering if it's something to do with that. But most certainly it's an issue mainly in Lightroom - which as it's what I use, is a possible problem.

The E-M5 shot is just to prove I don't have some kind of funky lighting, or alien purple skin, because I am sure someone will suggest that

To reiterate, all I originally wanted to do is find out why these 2 issues were happening, and what, if anything, I could do to rectify them. There is a lot of angst in this forum aimed at people who say anything negative about Fuji, which is crazy as we all share 2 things in common. A love of photography and a love of Fuji cameras.

RAF

Well that is just plain awful!

Could you perhaps show the same shot with the XE-1? Do you have one?

If not, how about at ISO3200, ISO1600? Is this progressively bad, or does it just happen at ISO6400?

With all the other great features the XE-2 has, if the IQ is no better (or perhaps even worse) overall than the XE-1, I think I'd back off buying one. I'd go for a second XE-1 at deep discount prices.

Are you sure that -2 doesn't mean less noise?!?! Maybe try it at +2 just to see if they got it backwards on accident.

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Randy Benter
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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to stimpy, 9 months ago

stimpy wrote:

There is a lot of angst in this forum aimed at people who say anything negative about Fuji, which is crazy as we all share 2 things in common. A love of photography and a love of Fuji cameras.

I think your latest examples show the issue a bit clearer. Many have agreed that the newer Fuji models are applying heavier NR to jpegs. If you don't like the results of the in-camera renderings, you can always shoot raw. I think you should try bigpigbig's suggestion of testing the different NR settings. I would be interested in the results.

I don't think the "angst" had anything to with the 2 issues you are asking about. The problem is some of the unfounded claims you have made in this thread, like:

stimpy wrote:

at all ISO ranges Fuji tries to soften skin and does not give the option to disable this feature

I am not sure how you reached this conclusion, but I haven't seen any examples of this at lower ISO settings. Can you elaborate? Can you post examples? Why do you keep calling it a feature?

stimpy wrote:

Definitely NR happening in RAW, no doubt.

How are you so sure that Fuji is applying NR to raw files? Do you have any proof?...or is this more of a conspiracy theory type thing?

If you stick to the real issues, I would agree that the OOC NR is too heavy for my tastes. But some of your other claims seem a bit off kilter.

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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to bigpigbig, 9 months ago

bigpigbig wrote:

stimpy wrote:

Alessandro63 wrote:

stimpy wrote:
And finally, it's not fake. Lol

Of course the first, and second reaction too, are not to believe: in the same thread you are showing bad problems with the RAWs (still waiting for the possibility to play with those purple-polluted shadows), and incredibly bad jpeg skin treatment.

I'm sorry this is becoming greater than you perhaps expected, but I (and I'm sure many others) wouldn't buy a camera that'd give those results (even in a beta version of LR, about the raw example).

So, it's not personal at all, even if we are indagating for possible user errors. Or camera defects. Or anything. So, you don't need to reshoot: You could just upload the files you have to dropbox or any other place that won't at least strip the data.

The xtrans problems with adobe developers are "micro" problems, what you are showing are gigantic ones, and that jpeg of the hand looks like a P&S result, I bet I can do better with my ageing F31d...

I own an X-E1 and I know what the quality of those files should be.

Here is another example, one last time.

Fuji X-E2 - JPEG from RAW (no processing) Lightroom 5.3 RC

Fuji X-E2 - JPEG with NR set to -2

OM-D E-M5

This post is to show the skin smoothing at 6400 - however you can actually see a little bit of the Lightroom issue as well if you look closely at the forefinger and thumb being covered in a purple shadow. If you open this up in Lightroom and adjust the white balance (cooler) the purple becomes more obvious - this happens with EVERY photo I have taken of people.

I have tried in other RAW editors and the purple is certainly not as problematic, though in some cases purple can still be seen, especially so compared to my Oly. In Silkypix the RAW has False Color setting defaulting to 100 and in many photos reducing this back a bit brings back the magenta splurges, so I am wondering if it's something to do with that. But most certainly it's an issue mainly in Lightroom - which as it's what I use, is a possible problem.

The E-M5 shot is just to prove I don't have some kind of funky lighting, or alien purple skin, because I am sure someone will suggest that

To reiterate, all I originally wanted to do is find out why these 2 issues were happening, and what, if anything, I could do to rectify them. There is a lot of angst in this forum aimed at people who say anything negative about Fuji, which is crazy as we all share 2 things in common. A love of photography and a love of Fuji cameras.

RAF

Well that is just plain awful!

Could you perhaps show the same shot with the XE-1? Do you have one?

No. Not yet anyway

If not, how about at ISO3200, ISO1600? Is this progressively bad, or does it just happen at ISO6400?

No not as bad, but it still occurs, and no way to turn it off. Which is a frustration for me as I do not like the look.

With all the other great features the XE-2 has, if the IQ is no better (or perhaps even worse) overall than the XE-1, I think I'd back off buying one. I'd go for a second XE-1 at deep discount prices.

IQ has never been touted as better as far as I am aware. I am sending this back, will decide whether to get an X-E1 or wait a bit.

Are you sure that -2 doesn't mean less noise?!?! Maybe try it at +2 just to see if they got it backwards on accident.

Nice idea, but no - see below. In fact I don't notice much difference between the 2 in terms of skin, which leads me to believe this is targeting skin specifically.

Just look how much it changes.

RAW vs (skin softened) JPEG

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RhysM
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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to stimpy, 9 months ago

X-E1

Here's an OOC JPEG from my X-E1 for anyone who wanted to look at a comparable X-E1 image.

I don't know if anyone has pointed this out as i haven't got time to read 122 responses, but, amongst other issues, some of the extra "detail" we're seeing is due to the DOF being greater with the Olympus sensor.

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Alessandro63
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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to stimpy, 9 months ago

Thanks.

Now we may all agree that is a mess...
There's something new, inside (the raw): RPP can't open it, I will indagate other developers.
The jpeg is horrible, I'm sure fuji will acknowledge and correct the disaster in a future FW update.

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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to RhysM, 9 months ago

RhysM wrote:

X-E1

Here's an OOC JPEG from my X-E1 for anyone who wanted to look at a comparable X-E1 image.

I don't know if anyone has pointed this out as i haven't got time to read 122 responses, but, amongst other issues, some of the extra "detail" we're seeing is due to the DOF being greater with the Olympus sensor.

Looks better to me, would be interested to see the raw to see how much noise reduction / skin smoothing was applied.

Though I am pretty bored of looking at photos of hands it must be said.

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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to Alessandro63, 9 months ago

Alessandro63 wrote:

Thanks.

Now we may all agree that is a mess...
There's something new, inside (the raw): RPP can't open it, I will indagate other developers.
The jpeg is horrible, I'm sure fuji will acknowledge and correct the disaster in a future FW update.

Hopefully, but I can see people complaining about this as far back as April - so you'd have thought it would have been addressed before releasing the X-E2.

I am more sure that Adobe will fix Lightroom, which to me is a more important fix.

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RhysM
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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to stimpy, 9 months ago

RAW Conversion with ACR

As requested no post precessing, straight conversion using ACR.

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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to RhysM, 9 months ago

RhysM wrote:

RAW Conversion with ACR

As requested no post precessing, straight conversion using ACR.

Cheers! Looks fine to me, the noise reduction is uniform through the whole image.

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Alessandro63
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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to stimpy, 9 months ago

Re Weird magenta toning in the thumb area of the hand: was there a display in front of the keyboard? If it's not mixed lighting, one of the three is true:

defective sensor, wrong camera calibration by ACR, your hand is sick.

There's hint of the same in the EM5 shot, where the angle of the hand might have mitigated the effect - but it's there. The shadowy right side of the hand and forearm is much warmer - magenta polluted.

Re jpeg softening: already said, unbelievable. Hope they'll sort out.

Here's a quickie to back up what I mean: color temperature locally corrected on the right side of hand and forearm, in the lower image. Fuji's trying harder than oly to give the correct output. Oly's file is warmer, and this masks the problem.

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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to Alessandro63, 9 months ago

Alessandro63 wrote:

Re Weird magenta toning in the thumb area of the hand: was there a display in front of the keyboard? If it's not mixed lighting, one of the three is true:

defective sensor, wrong camera calibration by ACR, your hand is sick.

There's hint of the same in the EM5 shot, where the angle of the hand might have mitigated the effect - but it's there. The shadowy right side of the hand and forearm is much warmer - magenta polluted.

Re jpeg softening: already said, unbelievable. Hope they'll sort out.

Yeah I have seen the magenta toning on the Em5 (and other cameras) pretty normal I think, the fuji is stronger but also it seems a bit more abrupt, the line between shadow and non shadow areas.

Ifyou try to adjust the WB in LR 5.3 - that's when things start getting really crazy with it though. Totally unusable.

Have shot in different rooms under different lights, it still happens unless it's natural light in which case it's OK.

Someone with an X-E2 kindly sent me a portrait outdoors and that was fine, I'd really need to see one indoors under artificial lighting to know if it was a Fuji thing, a Lightroom thing, or just my camera.
It's going back though so no more testing for me.

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Randy Benter
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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to stimpy, 9 months ago

stimpy wrote:

bigpigbig wrote:

Are you sure that -2 doesn't mean less noise?!?! Maybe try it at +2 just to see if they got it backwards on accident.

Nice idea, but no - see below. In fact I don't notice much difference between the 2 in terms of skin, which leads me to believe this is targeting skin specifically.

Just look how much it changes.

RAW vs (skin softened) JPEG

I don't understand your response to bigpigbig. Did you compare different in-camera NR settings (-2, 0, +2)? Can you share the results? Which NR setting was used for the JPEG part of this image? If you don't notice a difference between -2 and +2, then perhaps the setting is not working as Fuji planned and we can report it to Fuji support.

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Randy Benter
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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to stimpy, 9 months ago

stimpy wrote:

Yeah I have seen the magenta toning on the Em5 (and other cameras) pretty normal I think, the fuji is stronger but also it seems a bit more abrupt, the line between shadow and non shadow areas.

Have you tried adjusting the Shadows Tint slider on the Camera Calibration tab in LR? That slider should correct the problem you are having with magenta shadows in your raw conversions.

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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to Randy Benter, 9 months ago

Randy Benter wrote:

stimpy wrote:

bigpigbig wrote:

Are you sure that -2 doesn't mean less noise?!?! Maybe try it at +2 just to see if they got it backwards on accident.

Nice idea, but no - see below. In fact I don't notice much difference between the 2 in terms of skin, which leads me to believe this is targeting skin specifically.

Just look how much it changes.

RAW vs (skin softened) JPEG

I don't understand your response to bigpigbig. Did you compare different in-camera NR settings (-2, 0, +2)? Can you share the results? Which NR setting was used for the JPEG part of this image? If you don't notice a difference between -2 and +2, then perhaps the setting is not working as Fuji planned and we can report it to Fuji support.

No I didn't see a huge difference between -2 and +2 ON SKIN - perhaps on general noise. Above is a photo at +2 and above that one at -2 - feel free to take a look to see any diffrences. I haven't really gone to much trouble comparing them to be honest; all I know is either one is unsatisfactory as is NR 0.

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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to Randy Benter, 9 months ago

Randy Benter wrote:

stimpy wrote:

Yeah I have seen the magenta toning on the Em5 (and other cameras) pretty normal I think, the fuji is stronger but also it seems a bit more abrupt, the line between shadow and non shadow areas.

Have you tried adjusting the Shadows Tint slider on the Camera Calibration tab in LR? That slider should correct the problem you are having with magenta shadows in your raw conversions.

Yes. And doesn't correct it. I am unsure but I think it could be something related to false color. Not 100%

I am sure this will be fixed before LR 5.3 public release though.

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forpetessake
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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to virgil1612, 9 months ago

virgil1612 wrote:

Daniel Lauring wrote:

Did a little more research.

1. Purple artifacts is either poor RAW processor or problem with your specific camera. Try the included processor and see it that eliminates the problem.

2. Skin smoothing is a "feature" of Fuji cameras and probably one reason they are so loved by portrait and wedding photographers because of their "kindness."

Fuji's "Skin Smoothing Function."

Some people like it, some people, do not.

Fuji "ugly" noise reduction (Rachel Ruffer)

The skin smoothing isn't adjustable but is only applied to jpegs. If you fall in the hate category, and you don't mind the workflow of RAW, you can process the shots yourself. Of course, at this time you would not do that with the LR RAW processor because it apparently has color issues.

Excuse me, I cannot pass lightly over this... Can you confirm from your own experience that this (Rachel Ruffer's blog) is what Fuji does to human face jpegs at minimal noise reduction? If so, it's just ... dissapointing... I was really prepared to buy the small X-A1... , specifically to shoot jpegs... people photos...

I've tested the X-A1 and it also has extremely aggressive NR. It turns people faces into wax figures. It's also visible at all ISOs, though the high ISO are not surprisingly much worse. I don't remember seeing anything as ugly in my previous X-E1, so it's probably a new processing Fuji put in the new cameras.

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forpetessake
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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to Randy Benter, 9 months ago

Randy Benter wrote:

stimpy wrote:

at all ISO ranges Fuji tries to soften skin and does not give the option to disable this feature

I am not sure how you reached this conclusion, but I haven't seen any examples of this at lower ISO settings. Can you elaborate? Can you post examples? Why do you keep calling it a feature?

Fuji for whatever reasons didn't post any portraits in the X-E2 gallery. But they did post portrait samples in X-A1 gallery, and they are likely using the same processing in all new cameras. You can clearly see the plastic looking faces even on low ISO pictures:

stimpy wrote:

Definitely NR happening in RAW, no doubt.

How are you so sure that Fuji is applying NR to raw files? Do you have any proof?...or is this more of a conspiracy theory type thing?

Fuji, just like other manufacturers are not disclosing their algorithms, but you can find references that their demosaicing API does include the NR.

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Daniel Lauring
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Mass hysteria vs. reality and the voice of reason.
In reply to Alessandro63, 9 months ago

Alessandro63 wrote:

Thanks.

Now we may all agree that is a mess...
There's something new, inside (the raw): RPP can't open it, I will indagate other developers.
The jpeg is horrible, I'm sure fuji will acknowledge and correct the disaster in a future FW update.

To me, this is a perfect example of mass internet forum hysteria. Words like, "mess", "horrible" and "disaster" to describe a bit too much skin smoothing only shown at ISO 6400. This internal jpg processing appears to be pretty much exactly the same processing as is in the X100s which has been out for about 8 months and in that time has won top awards from the likes of Steve Huff and Zack Arias and been called "camera of the year" by several others. In fact, it just took top honors on dpreview's own website.

Let's look at the facts.

1. Fuji applies appears to apply more skin smoothing, at ISO 6400 than they do other noise reduction and to many people this amount of smoothing is objectionable.

2. Early X-E2 processors (specifically LR) don't do a great job of processing the RAW files.

That is it.

So, if ISO 6400 is an important part of your portrait work, and you don't care to process RAW, or if you only will process RAW with LR, it is clear that you should not buy the X-E2.

For pretty much everyone else the issue is much more minor.

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Randy Benter
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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to forpetessake, 9 months ago

forpetessake wrote:

Randy Benter wrote:

stimpy wrote:

at all ISO ranges Fuji tries to soften skin and does not give the option to disable this feature

I am not sure how you reached this conclusion, but I haven't seen any examples of this at lower ISO settings. Can you elaborate? Can you post examples? Why do you keep calling it a feature?

Fuji for whatever reasons didn't post any portraits in the X-E2 gallery. But they did post portrait samples in X-A1 gallery, and they are likely using the same processing in all new cameras. You can clearly see the plastic looking faces even on low ISO pictures:

This is a perfect example of why some people are reaching incorrect conclusions. This image was taken using the X-A1 with the Portrait Smooth Skin feature enabled. It is easy to turn that feature off and get normal skin rendering at low ISO settings.

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daddyman
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Re: Mass hysteria vs. reality and the voice of reason.
In reply to Daniel Lauring, 9 months ago

As a new X-E1 user, I agree with your statements. I have been testing extensively for the past 2 weeks and, yes, I noticed the issue with plastic skin at high ISOs and assumed it was an over application of NR. Not a big deal for me, I don't shoot concerts, etc. Obviously, for someone who does shoot these type of events, it may be a significant issue. I shoot primarily landscapes (high and low light) and have issues with processing the RAW files in LR5.3 as mentioned elsewhere. I'm spent out at the moment after acquiring the new system and have been trying some workarounds for this, such as doing basic RAW processing in LR, creating a TIFF, and using Elements 10 for sharpening and noise reduction (Noiseware Plugin) as needed. This does offer improvements in my opinion, but I still have issues. I was curious if using Silkpix as the RAW converter only might offer improvements. I have read conflicting opinions on this and I will try it out, but I was wondering what others on this thread think about it.

Mike

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