Fuji X-E2 image problems

Started 11 months ago | Discussions
Daniel Lauring
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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to stimpy, 11 months ago

stimpy wrote:

I'd be interested if you could do a quick portrait with the X100s at 6400 and post?

I did some selfies to check it out at ISO 800 thru ISO 6400 with the X100s (with NR -2 and Sharpening -1) and then with the Olympus E-M1. FYI, the Olympus has the opposite issue, IMHO, it over-sharpens even with sharpening set to -2.  There is a HUGE difference between ISO 3200 and ISO 6400 with the X100s with regard to skin smoothing.  I'll post some crops later.

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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to Daniel Lauring, 11 months ago

Daniel Lauring wrote:

stimpy wrote:

I'd be interested if you could do a quick portrait with the X100s at 6400 and post?

I did some selfies to check it out at ISO 800 thru ISO 6400 with the X100s (with NR -2 and Sharpening -1) and then with the Olympus E-M1. FYI, the Olympus has the opposite issue, IMHO, it over-sharpens even with sharpening set to -2.

Lol, my E-M5 is the same

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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to bigpigbig, 11 months ago

bigpigbig wrote:

stimpy wrote:

bigpigbig wrote:

According to wikipedia:

"In digital photography, the raw file plays the role that photographic film plays in film photography. Raw files thus contain the full resolution (typically 12- or 14-bit) data as read out from each of the camera's image sensor pixels."

This would imply no noise reduction in the RAW file. Simply data from each photosensitive site. Covered with a RGB filter then light converted to electrical charge and quantified.

stimpy wrote:

They all apply NR but not to this degree. It certainly seems to be worse with the X-E2 in my experience. It doesn't help that my wife has freckles...

It doesn't imply that at all. That data gets manipulated to the RAW file by Fuji, nobody will ever know for sure but most experts agree they add a decent amount of noise reduction to their raws.

Could you post a link to one of these experts, please? I would like to learn how they think this happens.

How would you think that is happening? A RAW file contains only data from each photosensitive site (RGB). Noise happens at the pixel level. Pixels are created by interpreting this data (Demosaicing).

Reading this might help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demosaicing

Here you go

Shooting pictures in RAW gives DSLR users the opportunity to fine-tune their settings, by potentially controlling every step of the RAW conversion. Users often assume that RAW images are directly output from the sensor without any additional processing, but is this really the case? What kind of processing can be applied and what kind of influence does it have on the final image?

Most noise occurs at the pixel level and can be considered as statistically white (meaning that each individual pixel’s noise is independent from other pixels’ noise) and identically distributed. However, there is another kind of noise, usually less common, that violates this “statistically white” rule. It is noise due to irregularities on the sensor, and thus has a fixed position.

Read more: http://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/Half-cooked-RAW

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Randy Benter
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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to stimpy, 11 months ago

stimpy wrote:

Randy Benter wrote:

Daniel Lauring wrote:

Did a little more research.

1. Purple artifacts is either poor RAW processor or problem with your specific camera. Try the included processor and see it that eliminates the problem.

2. Skin smoothing is a "feature" of Fuji cameras and probably one reason they are so loved by portrait and wedding photographers because of their "kindness."

Fuji's "Skin Smoothing Function."

The Skin Smoothing Function is NOT a feature of Fuji cameras. It is a feature of Fuji printers (part of their Digital Lab equipment). Skin smoothing in JPEGs is the result of aggressive NR. One can minimize the issue by setting NR to -2 or process raw for complete control.

Skin smoothing IS a feature in Fuji Cameras.

I was referring to the specific feature named "Skin Smoothing Function" that Daniel provided a link to. That is specific to Fuji printers and is not relevant to this discussion about cameras.

In fact there is a feature on the X-A1 called Portrait Enhancer that specifically smooths skin tones. "silky smooth" is the term Fuji use.

Yes, Fuji does have a feature called "Portrait Enhancer" that is available only on cameras with SP modes. It is not available on the X-E2 or X100s, so it can't be a cause for the smoothing in files from those cameras.

So far, it appears to me that we are just looking at heavy NR applied to hi-ISO JPEGs. I haven't seen any evidence of skin being smoothed more than other fine detail in an image. But I am interested in seeing more examples.

I also have not seen any evidence of Fuji cooking their raw files. I understand that it can be done and that DXO found evidence of this on a couple of particular cameras in the past. But, DXO was able to clearly identify when it happened and they have not seen this on recent cameras. Those cameras that were identified in the past were from Nikon and Sony; not Fuji. Just because it is possible to cook a raw file does not mean that we should assume it is being done. Especially when we have no evidence or even any indication that this is done in Fuji raw files.

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Daniel Lauring
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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to Randy Benter, 11 months ago

Randy Benter wrote:

So far, it appears to me that we are just looking at heavy NR applied to hi-ISO JPEGs. I haven't seen any evidence of skin being smoothed more than other fine detail in an image. But I am interested in seeing more examples.

Take a look at the files again.  There is absolute evidence of skin smoothing more than other surfaces.  Look at the hand, for example, and compare it to the other things in the picture.  Look how much detail there is in the eyelashes for example.  It definitely is something that effects skin more.  I don't notice a real difference till ISO 6400 however.  IMHO, this is real but a much smaller deal than some people are making it out to be.

I also have not seen any evidence of Fuji cooking their raw files. I understand that it can be done and that DXO found evidence of this on a couple of particular cameras in the past. But, DXO was able to clearly identify when it happened and they have not seen this on recent cameras. Those cameras that were identified in the past were from Nikon and Sony; not Fuji. Just because it is possible to cook a raw file does not mean that we should assume it is being done. Especially when we have no evidence or even any indication that this is done in Fuji raw files.

Everyone cooks their RAW files if you consider they are supposed to be actual voltage/sensor location output and nothing more.

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nicknd99
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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to stimpy, 11 months ago

stimpy wrote:

Daniel Lauring wrote:

virgil1612 wrote:

found on the web because it is the same problem the OP has, I hope he doesn't mind. I posted it on another thread but I got no answers. It's a sample picture from a review of the X-A1, at

http://www.whatdigitalcamera.com/equipment/galleries/sample-images/fujfilm/35202/1/fujifilm-x-a1-review-sample-image-gallery.html

the lady you can see in the second row. I'm attaching the full-size image. You can see regions on her face where NR is applied quite differently. The camera correctly shows the wrinkles around her eyes, but then, on the smoother regions decides that it should apply a much stronger NR and the resulting look at 100% is quite horrible. The ISO is 640!!, we are not talking about high-ISO here!! I presume it's SOOC, no mention about that, I suppose NR is standard.

That is quite different and may very well be using the Fuji skin smoothing function that is available in the X-A1's menu. I've never seen results like that from the X-E1 or X100s at any ISO.

I'd be interested if you could do a quick portrait with the X100s at 6400 and post?

I did this last night with my X100s, having made it halfway through the thread. I shot my face and back of hand in low lighting indoors at ISO 6400 RAW & JPEG. I imported to Lightroom 4.XX and sure enough the JPEG's showed having smoothing (wax/plastic-like skin tones), but the RAW files appear untouched. I had read about this before purchasing my X100S, but had never tested it myself. I haven't tested my X-E1 as of yet.

Fast forward a few minutes...it just dawned on me that my X-E1 went to work with me this morning so I shot a quick photo if anyone was interested in seeing what effect the X-E1 produces compared to the X100s.

By looking at my pic above, I can tell you that this was not the effect my X100s produced last night.  BTW, the lack of aperture value was due to me shooting an adapted lens (Nikon 24mm f/2.8).  Darn it, I just realized I forgot to set ISO to 6400.  If anyone has any interest, I can reshoot this at 6400.

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nicknd99
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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to nicknd99, 11 months ago

Ok, slow day at work.  I reshot at ISO 6400.  BTW, these are STOOC with JPEG settings at -2 for noise reduction and +1 for sharpening.  The photos are being viewed through FastStone Image Viewer from which I took a screen shot to post.

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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to nicknd99, 11 months ago

Ok, slow day at work.  I reshot at ISO 6400.  BTW, these are STOOC with JPEG settings at -2 for noise reduction and +1 for sharpening.  The photos are being viewed through FastStone Image Viewer from which I took a screen shot to post.

So confirms it's definitely a feature of xtrans II?

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Randy Benter
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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to Daniel Lauring, 11 months ago

Daniel Lauring wrote:

Everyone cooks their RAW files if you consider they are supposed to be actual voltage/sensor location output and nothing more.

I guess that depends on how you define "cooking" and your definition seems to be very loose. I have not seen any indication that Fuji is applying a noise reduction algorithm to their raw files, which was claimed earlier in this thread. The raw files seem to look fine.

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Randy Benter
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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to nicknd99, 11 months ago

nicknd99 wrote:

Ok, slow day at work. I reshot at ISO 6400. BTW, these are STOOC with JPEG settings at -2 for noise reduction and +1 for sharpening. The photos are being viewed through FastStone Image Viewer from which I took a screen shot to post.

Can you post comparison images with both your X-E1 and your X100s, so we can see the difference?

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Randy Benter
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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to stimpy, 11 months ago

stimpy wrote:

The bad and the ugly

Can you upload the OOC jpeg to a sharing site (like dropbox) or even upload to DPR? This version has no EXIF data, so it is difficult to be sure what is going on here.

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Daniel Lauring
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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to stimpy, 11 months ago

stimpy wrote:

So confirms it's definitely a feature of xtrans II?

Or more specifically, the current Xtrans 2 jpeg internal processing at ISO 6400.  I don't think it is a reason to damn the entire camera...just something to take into account.

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nicknd99
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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to Randy Benter, 11 months ago

Randy Benter wrote:

Can you post comparison images with both your X-E1 and your X100s, so we can see the difference?

Here you go:

X100s including in camera RAW conversion:

X-E1:

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Randy Benter
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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to nicknd99, 11 months ago

nicknd99 wrote:

Randy Benter wrote:

Can you post comparison images with both your X-E1 and your X100s, so we can see the difference?

Here you go:

X100s including in camera RAW conversion:

X-E1:

Thanks for posting this. I don't see much difference between the 3 X100s images. The OOC jpeg doesn't appear to have less detail than the other 2 versions.

It is difficult to compare the X100s to the X-E1 due to the different exposure, but your images seem to indicate the difference between the 2 cameras is minor even at ISO 6400.

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Alessandro63
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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to Randy Benter, 11 months ago

Randy Benter wrote:

stimpy wrote:

The bad and the ugly

Can you upload the OOC jpeg to a sharing site (like dropbox) or even upload to DPR? This version has no EXIF data, so it is difficult to be sure what is going on here.

Apparently, he can only show jpg crops with stripped exif data. And this particular shot looks as if it has undergone an heavy "portraiture" filtering, for those who know that plugin. I hope it's a joke: if this is a genuine OOC jpeg, it's an horrible mess, in particular for the brand that's known as one of the best jpg makers. I've a limited interest, being a raw shooter, but my request for a raw file has had the same ending: ignored. If it goes on this way, I'll just ignore the OP waiting for more detailed stuff from others.

BTW, looking at nicknd99's samples, this one seems fake. I have to take it into account because it is said it is from a different camera.

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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to Alessandro63, 11 months ago

Alessandro63 wrote:

Randy Benter wrote:

stimpy wrote:

The bad and the ugly

Can you upload the OOC jpeg to a sharing site (like dropbox) or even upload to DPR? This version has no EXIF data, so it is difficult to be sure what is going on here.

Apparently, he can only show jpg crops with stripped exif data. And this particular shot looks as if it has undergone an heavy "portraiture" filtering, for those who know that plugin. I hope it's a joke: if this is a genuine OOC jpeg, it's an horrible mess, in particular for the brand that's known as one of the best jpg makers. I've a limited interest, being a raw shooter, but my request for a raw file has had the same ending: ignored. If it goes on this way, I'll just ignore the OP waiting for more detailed stuff from others.

BTW, looking at nicknd99's samples, this one seems fake. I have to take it into account because it is said it is from a different camera.

Actually they are not crops - you need to click on them (with your mouse) to make them larger. They also are straight out of camera. The files host strips some Exif data.

And finally, it's not fake. Lol

I work which means I am often pretty busy doing other things, but I can upload again or even reshoot when I get a moment. That is if I still have the camera by then of course...

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Alessandro63
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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to stimpy, 11 months ago

stimpy wrote:
And finally, it's not fake. Lol

Of course the first, and second reaction too, are not to believe: in the same thread you are showing bad problems with the RAWs (still waiting for the possibility to play with those purple-polluted shadows), and incredibly bad jpeg skin treatment.

I'm sorry this is becoming greater than you perhaps expected, but I (and I'm sure many others) wouldn't buy a camera that'd give those results (even in a beta version of LR, about the raw example).

So, it's not personal at all, even if we are indagating for possible user errors. Or camera defects. Or anything. So, you don't need to reshoot: You could just upload the files you have to dropbox or any other place that won't at least strip the data.

The xtrans problems with adobe developers are "micro" problems, what you are showing are gigantic ones, and that jpeg of the hand looks like a P&S result, I bet I can do better with my ageing F31d...

I own an X-E1 and I know what the quality of those files should be.

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nicknd99
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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to Randy Benter, 11 months ago

Randy Benter wrote:

nicknd99 wrote:

Randy Benter wrote:

Can you post comparison images with both your X-E1 and your X100s, so we can see the difference?

Here you go:

X100s including in camera RAW conversion:

X-E1:

Thanks for posting this. I don't see much difference between the 3 X100s images. The OOC jpeg doesn't appear to have less detail than the other 2 versions.

It is difficult to compare the X100s to the X-E1 due to the different exposure, but your images seem to indicate the difference between the 2 cameras is minor even at ISO 6400.

I agree, and I apologize for the inconsistency in exposure between the two sets.  I should have waited for until after I put had my toddler to bed instead of rushing these to upload  Maybe I can try again.

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nicknd99
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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to Alessandro63, 11 months ago

Alessandro63 wrote:

Randy Benter wrote:

stimpy wrote:

The bad and the ugly

Can you upload the OOC jpeg to a sharing site (like dropbox) or even upload to DPR? This version has no EXIF data, so it is difficult to be sure what is going on here.

Apparently, he can only show jpg crops with stripped exif data. And this particular shot looks as if it has undergone an heavy "portraiture" filtering, for those who know that plugin. I hope it's a joke: if this is a genuine OOC jpeg, it's an horrible mess, in particular for the brand that's known as one of the best jpg makers. I've a limited interest, being a raw shooter, but my request for a raw file has had the same ending: ignored. If it goes on this way, I'll just ignore the OP waiting for more detailed stuff from others.

BTW, looking at nicknd99's samples, this one seems fake. I have to take it into account because it is said it is from a different camera.

Alessandra63,

I have to admit that I'm perplexed by the JPEG output from my X100s.  The samples that I posted do not compare to how aggressive the plastic/wax-like appearance (very similar to Stimpy's results without the color tinted shadows) I found when I took a test photo the night before last.  Unfortunately, I had formatted my SD card since then and no longer have the photo...ugh!  Both photos were taken under similar conditions: nighttime, indoor incandescent and florescent lighting.

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Re: Fuji X-E2 image problems
In reply to Alessandro63, 11 months ago

Alessandro63 wrote:

stimpy wrote:
And finally, it's not fake. Lol

Of course the first, and second reaction too, are not to believe: in the same thread you are showing bad problems with the RAWs (still waiting for the possibility to play with those purple-polluted shadows), and incredibly bad jpeg skin treatment.

I'm sorry this is becoming greater than you perhaps expected, but I (and I'm sure many others) wouldn't buy a camera that'd give those results (even in a beta version of LR, about the raw example).

So, it's not personal at all, even if we are indagating for possible user errors. Or camera defects. Or anything. So, you don't need to reshoot: You could just upload the files you have to dropbox or any other place that won't at least strip the data.

The xtrans problems with adobe developers are "micro" problems, what you are showing are gigantic ones, and that jpeg of the hand looks like a P&S result, I bet I can do better with my ageing F31d...

I own an X-E1 and I know what the quality of those files should be.

Here is another example, one last time.

Fuji X-E2 - JPEG from RAW (no processing) Lightroom 5.3 RC

Fuji X-E2 - JPEG with NR set to -2

OM-D E-M5

This post is to show the skin smoothing at 6400 - however you can actually see a little bit of the Lightroom issue as well if you look closely at the forefinger and thumb being covered in a purple shadow. If you open this up in Lightroom and adjust the white balance (cooler) the purple becomes more obvious - this happens with EVERY photo I have taken of people.

I have tried in other RAW editors and the purple is certainly not as problematic, though in some cases purple can still be seen, especially so compared to my Oly. In Silkypix the RAW has False Color setting defaulting to 100 and in many photos reducing this back a bit brings back the magenta splurges, so I am wondering if it's something to do with that. But most certainly it's an issue mainly in Lightroom - which as it's what I use, is a possible problem.

The E-M5 shot is just to prove I don't have some kind of funky lighting, or alien purple skin, because I am sure someone will suggest that

To reiterate, all I originally wanted to do is find out why these 2 issues were happening, and what, if anything, I could do to rectify them. There is a lot of angst in this forum aimed at people who say anything negative about Fuji, which is crazy as we all share 2 things in common. A love of photography and a love of Fuji cameras.

RAF

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