HUGE Df Apology!

Started Nov 10, 2013 | Discussions
Shotcents
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Re: HUGE Df Apology!
In reply to jjnik, Nov 12, 2013

BTW, jjnik, I see you own a D4 and the D800.

Within the parameters of your usage, is there anything YOU prefer about the IQ of the D4 sensor?

Obviously we've all heard about differences in midtones at high ISO along with extended DR and people chant about DXO charts, but what is your experience?

Robert

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jjnik
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Re: HUGE Df Apology!
In reply to Shotcents, Nov 12, 2013

Shotcents wrote:

BTW, jjnik, I see you own a D4 and the D800.

Within the parameters of your usage, is there anything YOU prefer about the IQ of the D4 sensor?

Obviously we've all heard about differences in midtones at high ISO along with extended DR and people chant about DXO charts, but what is your experience?

Robert

The difference I see in favor of the D4 is mainly at ISO's above 6400 where the D4 is cleaner and holds color better without much PP. I also don't look at test charts. These days, I find myself using the D800E as much or more than the D4 in good light. The tonality, detail and ability to crop pretty heavily just make it really flexible. I use the D4 more when I need speed. Here's a link to a gallery of shots for a local sailing club where I used both cameras - the D4 with the 70-200 f2.8 VR2 and the D800E with the 300 f2.8 VR2 ( a few with the 2xTCIII as well) so you can see how both cameras fared in the same light.

http://photoboater.smugmug.com/Sailing

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jjnik
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Re: HUGE Df Apology!
In reply to Shotcents, Nov 12, 2013

Shotcents wrote:

jjnik wrote:

Shotcents wrote:

C'mon, guys. Can you get OUT of your own heads for just a second?

Sure - if you can join the 21st century for a minute...

What does this even mean? The Df is loaded with technology.

Meaning what's wrong with modern technology in a modern looking body - but you seem to have an issue with modern DSLR design.  Aesthetics are completely subjective - you like the look of the Df, I don't get the need for the retro look (but have no issue with those who do).

YOU may not think the Df looks better and Bugs Bunny might love it, but the INTENTION was to build something capable AND aesthetically superior.

To most people THIS looks like a camera, perhaps even a film camera:\

Exactly - but most are not using film cameras anymore - and this is not a film camera. You are entitled to your opinion that this is a beautiful camera - more power to you. However, stop trying to convince people that feel otherwise. To me, that looks like a camera that my dad used 30 years ago and I much prefer the aesthetics/ergonomics/control layout of my D4 and D800E much better. Others are obviously free to feel differently - but why are you so obsessed with this?

Like I said, can't anyone get out of their OWN head for a second. I LIKE it. You DON'T. But that's not the point. Nikon thinks MORE people will like the looks and I think they're right. I sure haven't heard many complains about the looks!

It doesn't look anything like my D800, which is almost militant by comparison. If you think it's ugly or looks like an iPhone (!), I don't know what to tell you. That's not likely to be what the masses will think and you probably know that.

I've avoided the "camera as fashion accessory" element because I don't care all that much about it. I see a small camera with a great sensor. But the gut reaction from some experienced shooters IS about the nicer looks.

I suspect "experienced" means older for this camera's styling...

That's not relevant. I'm talking about a GUT reaction. It doesn't look like a DSLR to most people. I've been shooting for many years, going back to a wood-framed large format. Without seeing the back I might have thought it was a film camera for a moment. That's the goal of the design.

It's relevant as it's likely the look of the camera will appeal more to older folks that have nostalgia for their old film cameras.  I personally don't get the need to make a DSLR look like a film SLR?  It has no benefit to IQ and in many ways it might make it even harder to change settings in actual shooting conditions.  I would have rather seen a camera with the D800 body with the D4 sensor AND the 51 pt AF and metering from the D4.

You walk into a restaurant with your pretty wife. Standing near the bar is a 6' blonde bombshell that makes your wife look like Kathy Bates. And you say to yourself, "Yeah, but I bet she's bad in bed and a real b*itch"

I prefer brunettes and 6' is too tall for me.  Besides, no woman could ever make my wife look like Kathy Bates, so I'd never say that to myself...

You may be right. In fact I know from experience it is OFTEN the case on both counts. But that doesn't change the fact that the criteria for your assumption is emotional rather than factual.

I have a feeling that the Df is the blonde bombshell who IS good in bed and is most certainly not a b*tch. We'll know when the real reviews come in and we have a chance to try one for ourselves.

and now you've officially lost it...

Have I now?

Sort of - comparing camera bodies to beautiful women seems quite silly to me.  I've never bought a camera based on how it looks and never will!

The automakers restyle and see quick trades based on little more than adjusted trim.

Apples and oranges - Cars are as much about looks as they are about features and performance and always have been = bad analogy, imho.

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Shotcents
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Re: HUGE Df Apology!
In reply to jjnik, Nov 12, 2013

jjnik wrote:

Shotcents wrote:

BTW, jjnik, I see you own a D4 and the D800.

Within the parameters of your usage, is there anything YOU prefer about the IQ of the D4 sensor?

Obviously we've all heard about differences in midtones at high ISO along with extended DR and people chant about DXO charts, but what is your experience?

Robert

The difference I see in favor of the D4 is mainly at ISO's above 6400 where the D4 is cleaner and holds color better without much PP. I also don't look at test charts. These days, I find myself using the D800E as much or more than the D4 in good light. The tonality, detail and ability to crop pretty heavily just make it really flexible. I use the D4 more when I need speed. Here's a link to a gallery of shots for a local sailing club where I used both cameras - the D4 with the 70-200 f2.8 VR2 and the D800E with the 300 f2.8 VR2 ( a few with the 2xTCIII as well) so you can see how both cameras fared in the same light.

http://photoboater.smugmug.com/Sailing

Thank you for writing the above. My friends who own the D4 find it starts to distance itself from the D800 at ISO 3200, but they are shooting in dark venues. Overall they would agree with you; excellent low light results without the need for heavy PP.

My key interest in the Df is the D4 sensor. I have plans to shoot much more low light material and I don't require the speed of the D4. I'd also like to have a FX body that is smaller.

I'm likely to still use the D800 more often. Shots below from a Coolpix P7700....another favorite aboard for it's small size!

Thanks for the sailing samples! We typically shoot/race/sail from our boats that range from 27-45 feet and I own and sail a 36 foot Beneteau racer/cruiser. My buddy shot several Wednesday night races with a D4 at sunset and the results were great, even well above ISO 6400.

Cheers,

Robert

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brianric
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Re: HUGE Df Apology!
In reply to Shotcents, Nov 12, 2013

Shotcents wrote:

brianric wrote:

Shotcents wrote:

Naturally, some adults just can't accept the facts.

Robert

And you seem to fit into that category.

I like all of these pat curt replies with no substance.

They validate all of my points nicely.

Robert

Only in your dreams.

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brianric
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Re: Why should one hate a camera?
In reply to seahawk, Nov 12, 2013

seahawk wrote:

Imho there are points with the Df that do not appeal to everybody

1. price

2. resolution

3. AF

4. user interface

5. no video

6. FPS

-- hide signature --

hobby aviation photographer

7. Buffer???

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Shotcents
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Re: HUGE Df Apology!
In reply to jjnik, Nov 12, 2013

That's not relevant. I'm talking about a GUT reaction. It doesn't look like a DSLR to most people. I've been shooting for many years, going back to a wood-framed large format. Without seeing the back I might have thought it was a film camera for a moment. That's the goal of the design.

It's relevant as it's likely the look of the camera will appeal more to older folks that have nostalgia for their old film cameras. I personally don't get the need to make a DSLR look like a film SLR? It has no benefit to IQ and in many ways it might make it even harder to change settings in actual shooting conditions. I would have rather seen a camera with the D800 body with the D4 sensor AND the 51 pt AF and metering from the D4.

We'll all have to actually shoot with one to really see what's what. I did want a smaller FX camera, but I'm not a fan of the D610. So, at least up to this moment, I'm rather excited by the Df announcement.

On the other hand, if I owned a D4, I'd probably care a lot less. YOU already have the two top sensors. I've only got one (sniffle).

You walk into a restaurant with your pretty wife. Standing near the bar is a 6' blonde bombshell that makes your wife look like Kathy Bates. And you say to yourself, "Yeah, but I bet she's bad in bed and a real b*itch"

I prefer brunettes and 6' is too tall for me. Besides, no woman could ever make my wife look like Kathy Bates, so I'd never say that to myself...

My wife is easy on the eyes...

...and she's the girl for me! But that doesn't mean I never saw a prettier girl.

You may be right. In fact I know from experience it is OFTEN the case on both counts. But that doesn't change the fact that the criteria for your assumption is emotional rather than factual.

I have a feeling that the Df is the blonde bombshell who IS good in bed and is most certainly not a b*tch. We'll know when the real reviews come in and we have a chance to try one for ourselves.

and now you've officially lost it...

Have I now?

Sort of - comparing camera bodies to beautiful women seems quite silly to me. I've never bought a camera based on how it looks and never will!

And you shouldn't and nor will I. But the look of a product does have an effect when things are otherwise equal or close to equal. Heck, a car is just a tool as well, but who wants an ugly car if they can have something that looks pleasing?

The automakers restyle and see quick trades based on little more than adjusted trim.

Apples and oranges - Cars are as much about looks as they are about features and performance and always have been = bad analogy, imho.

Okay! I'm trying to have some fun!

Robert

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Event_shooter
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Re: HUGE Df Apology!
In reply to Shotcents, Nov 12, 2013

..........It's so simple even a child can reason through it.

***************************

My child DID reason through it and came up with "16.2 MP - FOR THAT AMOUNT OF MONEY , they're NUTS."

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Shotcents
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Re: HUGE Df Apology!
In reply to Event_shooter, Nov 13, 2013

Event_shooter wrote:

..........It's so simple even a child can reason through it.

***************************

My child DID reason through it and came up with "16.2 MP - FOR THAT AMOUNT OF MONEY , they're NUTS."

He must feel the D4 is also nuts. Same MP.

Robert

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clarnibass
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Re: HUGE Df Apology!
In reply to Shotcents, Nov 13, 2013

It feels like crashing out of modesty too much to put a gea list do I don't have one. Others might have all sorts of reasons for putting or not putting a gear list. I don't feel it's arogant when someone else has a gear list though.

I don't have a gallery because almost all my photos are from concert with people in them and I don't feel comrotable advertising photos with these people (many of them are friends or know me) on random forums they've never even heard of. I might do it occasionally when I'm sure it's ok but definitely won't put a gallery with them.

But to the important issue... Star Wars may be silly, but it's great in spite of that. Star Trek is just so boring...

OTOH, the DF is quite good IMO, but I have absolutely no need for it.

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Shotcents
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Re: HUGE Df Apology!
In reply to clarnibass, Nov 13, 2013

clarnibass wrote:

It feels like crashing out of modesty too much to put a gea list do I don't have one. Others might have all sorts of reasons for putting or not putting a gear list. I don't feel it's arogant when someone else has a gear list though.

If we're talking about gear in a gear forum and debating the merits of a product I think knowing what the other guy/gal is familiar with is an important factor. If I don't see a list of gear I wonder if they even own a camera. If I don't see any shots I wonder if they can focus a camera. I have only a couple of shots in my gallery that are paid for. Posting paid work in a forum is asking for trouble. But I have lots of goofing-around shots that show I have at least some capacity for photography.

The truth is that a LOT of people here don't shoot, rarely shoot or are the types that think if they bought the lens with best DXO report then they won a prize. There are some truly arrogant people here with some reasonable work posted and I am much more tolerant of the attitude, while also remembering that "tone" is absent from forum posts and misunderstandings happen easily.

Dpreview is not always a friendly place, even to shooters who have more than a clue. Witness what just happened when accomplished shooter, Lisa Holloway dared to try and be helpful over in the portrait forum. Awful. If you want to get depressed, go have a look at that thread.

But to the important issue... Star Wars may be silly, but it's great in spite of that. Star Trek is just so boring...

Star Trek: Wrath of Khan boring? Now you've gone way too far!

OTOH, the DF is quite good IMO, but I have absolutely no need for it.

A valid POV that deserves no argument!

Robert

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djsphynx
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Re: HUGE Df Apology!
In reply to Shotcents, Nov 13, 2013

Does Robert work for Nikon?

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djsphynx
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Re: HUGE Df Apology!
In reply to Shotcents, Nov 13, 2013

Shotcents wrote:

user_name wrote:

Robert,

That set of criteria may work for you (and that is fine), but it does not apply to everyone (which is what your argument seems to state).

For example, 2 tons is lighter than 3 tons, but does not help if you have a 1 ton pickup. The Df may be lighter, but that may not be light enough for some people's needs (I don't know who those people are, but it is just an example).

One shoe does not fit all.

Furthermore, everyone has a right to their opinion, but no one has a right to expect it to be taken seriously.

I agree 100%. But frankly, with no one here doing anything more than reading specs and looking at web nonsense, those negative opinions sure sound like SOUR GRAPES and TROLLING to me.

Many of the haters have no gear files or gallery pics. I think most are obvious tech junkies who know very little about shooting and wanted 95% of a D4 for 1799.00. Not going to happen.

I DO notice that many of the Df SUPPORTERS do have gear profiles, gallery samples and even websites for their work. Hmmmm!

As I said, I agree with your comment. But that is not what is going on in this forum for the most part. The value of me posting counter-threads is debatable of course.

Robert

FYI: I'm not a fan and I have pictures on DPR and a website (see below).

Question: why do you care so much about what other people think? Wouldn't your time be better spent doing something other than arguing with perfect strangers in an online forum? I could see why you would if a) you work for Nikon or b) you own Nikon stock but otherwise, just move on.

Not everyone will agree with you and there are some trolls out there. Don't feed them.

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Reilly Diefenbach
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Wow, 122 virtual thumbs down.
In reply to Shotcents, Nov 13, 2013

Is that a record, pre or post thumbs down availability?  Good job, Bob!

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Shotcents
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Re: HUGE Df Apology!
In reply to djsphynx, Nov 13, 2013

As I said, I agree with your comment. But that is not what is going on in this forum for the most part. The value of me posting counter-threads is debatable of course.

Robert

FYI: I'm not a fan and I have pictures on DPR and a website (see below).

Nice work shown on your website, Robert.

Question: why do you care so much about what other people think? Wouldn't your time be better spent doing something other than arguing with perfect strangers in an online forum?

Let's not argue about it!.

I could see why you would if a) you work for Nikon or b) you own Nikon stock but otherwise, just move on.

I thought a forum on Nikon gear was around to discuss, debate and otherwise focus on Nikon gear and how it operates.

Not everyone will agree with you and there are some trolls out there. Don't feed them.

-- hide signature --

You're right, but many of the folks I was "targeting" with this thread are not trolls. But they do seem to have a nearsighted view of gear as it might apply to others and the unfortunate need to denigrate those who see differently.

Cheers,

Robert

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Shotcents
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Re: Wow, 122 virtual thumbs down.
In reply to Reilly Diefenbach, Nov 13, 2013

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

Is that a record, pre or post thumbs down availability? Good job, Bob!

Thank you! I do appreciate the love.

Robert

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MisterHairy
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Re: Wow, 122 virtual thumbs down.
In reply to Reilly Diefenbach, Nov 13, 2013

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

Is that a record, pre or post thumbs down availability? Good job, Bob!

How does one register a thumbs down?

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Thoughts R Us
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Re: Well, It Got The Attention
In reply to Reilly Diefenbach, Nov 13, 2013

Regardless of the thumbs up or thumbs down, this post has attracted the attention.  And "Shotcents" has attracted the attention.

In this era of information overload, the competition is for attention.  In this sense, this post and "Shotcents" has succeeded.  In fact, ironically, those who post to criticize "Shotcents" or vote him down, or whatever, actually make the post and "Shotcents" more successful.

The worst thing in today's world is to be ignored.  Attention is what is scarce.

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Reilly Diefenbach
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Re: Wow, 122 virtual thumbs down.
In reply to MisterHairy, Nov 13, 2013

MisterHairy wrote:

How does one register a thumbs down?

The mods left the thumbs down clicker in place for about a month, then yanked it.   So we got a workaround, at least on this thread :^)

Attention.  It must be a powerful drug, eh?  Some even seem to enjoy the beatdowns.

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Rich Rosen
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Re: Not necessary
In reply to Shotcents, Nov 13, 2013

No apologies necessary. I don't regret my decision to wait until the camera comes out and is reviewed,  vetted to to make my buying decision.

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