To watermark or not to watermark?

Started 11 months ago | Discussions
edispics
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Re: No. I grant an expensive license...
In reply to InTheMist, 11 months ago

Yes, you should be compensated. But in the real world the likelihood of you ever being compensated is extremely slim, especially if the person doing the copying is not in your legal jurisdiction. There have been so many examples of outright theft described here on DPReview and I have yet to hear of one case where the real owner received compensation. At best the publicity resulted in the offending image being taken down from public view, but only on the one offending site that was publicly shamed.

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Cane
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Re: To watermark or not to watermark?
In reply to Clueless Wanderer, 11 months ago

What's the worse that happens if someone steals them? It's not like they were gonna pay you, so can you just feel flattered?

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rodskogj
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All your image can be downloaded from here
In reply to Clueless Wanderer, 11 months ago
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Clueless Wanderer
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Re: To watermark or not to watermark?
In reply to Mark B., 11 months ago

Mark B. wrote:

Clueless Wanderer wrote:

Mark B. wrote:

Clueless Wanderer wrote:

Mark B. wrote:

Clueless Wanderer wrote:

Hey,

I have just finished building a website with the largest onscreen images coming in at around the 750x500 pixel, 96dpi 100kb file size.

dpi actually doesn't matter for images on the web; it's still an image that is 750 pixels by 500 pixels.

I have put in place a system that stops right click stealing of the image, but have just learn't that when viewed on an iphone, the image's can be saved as 750x500 pixels, 96dpi at around 50kb with the exif copyright information removed. They are pretty useless to be stolen for print, but they are of ample size for web use.
I don't want to water mark them with a faint diagonal cross and ©(my name) in the center a'la stock library's as I feel it devalues the viewing experience, but I'm thinking that I may have to.

What are your thoughts?

There isn't anything you can do to prevent an image from being stolen if it's on the web. Right-click blocking only keeps honest people honest. If it's displayed on a web page, it can still be taken - whether from an iPhone or traditional computer workstation. You either let it go, watermark, or don't put it on the web.

Mark

..Yes I know DPI is irrelevant for web use, I mentioned the DPI to point out the images usability when it came to print.

What I'm saying is you could resize it to 1000ppi, but it's still 750 pixels wide and 500 pixels high.

Thanks for the heads up about stealing from a computer work station. I haven't disabled right click, just done some java to negate 'save as'. Could you tell me how I can attempt to save an image with a work station, so I can test it out for myself?

One way is to do a screen capture, then crop it to the image.

Mark

Screen capture in what way? certain software? windows snipping tool?
Do you mind having a go with an image on the (my) website? And let me know if you were successful?

It's down for maintenance.

Sorry,  I pulled the plug until everything is watermarked.
Should be back up this time tommorrow

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Clueless Wanderer
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Re: Example of removal
In reply to Richard, 11 months ago

Richard wrote:

Clueless Wanderer wrote:

I've just had a look at iStock's water marking and they have an outlined (grey outter, lighter inner) form of text. Would doing it that way make it harder for software? As it is having to deal with two layers of lightness, rather than just one.

Example of removal below using the program from softorbits. The program had a hard time with the above type of removal. I will say though, the picture of the sillouete wheat grain in front of a bright yellow out of focus bokeh ball. (the third picture in my first example) is such a simple picture, ANY photomark would be easily removed from a simple picture like that. Complex pictures like the one above with a difficult to remove watermark easily overcomes the program from soft orbits. But Softorbits program works ok on some sections of the sky and the water. Simple repeating areas like the sky or water the program or a photoshop person will easily be able to remove. The program also does batch jobs.

What I find sad is there are websites and programs that are dedicated to help people remove watermarks for what I would assume is illegal use.

http://www.softorbits.com/photo-stamp-remover/articles/remove-watermark.html

Thanks for the examples and also for explaining the '3rd picture' without posting the results and im in total agreement of the wrongness of software developed to rip off an artists work.
A while back someone on here posted something like "I respect the photographer and all, but what software can I use to remove water marks from my sisters wedding photograph's" and yes, It was his only posting. He had signed up to the forum to learn how to rip off a photographer.
I was impressed how the whole forum got behind the wrongness of it all and gave him hassle for it. Except one. He told him the name of the software.. WTF! So i hit up the member who named the software with a sour PM I hope others did too..

Im having a real tussle right now with tasteful watermarks v's difficult to remove ones. :-/

Yes the example above has turned out a mess, but man the kind of water mark you gave it, Im surprised the software got it this far :-o
I know its not the best solution, but right now I'm erring on the watermark style of istock as it looks classy enough and also do that colour change thing with it. B+W's may not respond so well though..

Have you heard of digimark?

http://www.digimarc.com/digimarc-for-images

Whats your thoughts?

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Clueless Wanderer
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Re: No. I grant an expensive license...
In reply to InTheMist, 11 months ago

InTheMist wrote:

I don't watermark. I just embed in the EXIF that a "Non-transferrable, single-use license is granted for $5000". None of my images have been stolen, but if they were, I would just send a bill as they've obviously agreed.

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Ridicule is not C&C nor is it being helpful nor "stating your opinion"
www.flickr.com/InTheMist

Screen capture has no embedded Exif, that was the first thing I looked for :-/

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Clueless Wanderer
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Re: To watermark or not to watermark?
In reply to Cane, 11 months ago

Cane wrote:

What's the worse that happens if someone steals them? It's not like they were gonna pay you, so can you just feel flattered?

I don't work my ars* off to be payed in flattery

People steal images for their own websites. Websites that they make money off through advertising, etc. So if that happens, I get paid in flattery and they get paid in currency. I't doesn't sound like a fair deal to me.. does it you?

Also there are website's that scrape images from the web, claim them as their own, and sell them as prints. They even watermark the images with their water mark 'To protect them from theft' :-/

Im not attacking you Cane, I just think your a little naive as to what happens out their in cyberworld. Just as I was naive to the ability of the watermark removing software..   ..that Richard has shown.

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Clueless Wanderer
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Re: All your image can be downloaded from here
In reply to rodskogj, 11 months ago

rodskogj wrote:

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=site:hangitstraight.com&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=zlSBUtmULMbpiAeT6YC4Cg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1536&bih=772

Just google your site in google images...

HOLY SH*T ...and my day just got a lot worse :-/

Thanks for letting me know..

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rodskogj
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Re: All your image can be downloaded from here
In reply to Clueless Wanderer, 11 months ago

Clueless Wanderer wrote:

rodskogj wrote:

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=site:hangitstraight.com&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=zlSBUtmULMbpiAeT6YC4Cg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1536&bih=772

Just google your site in google images...

HOLY SH*T ...and my day just got a lot worse :-/

Thanks for letting me know..

-- hide signature --

Bottom line is you can't worry excessively about it.  End of the day they can get your images if they really want them.

Take reasonable precautions as you have done (i.e. prevent right click).  I would probably add a small discrete watermark in bottom corner of images, not a big one.  This way they have to make an effort to remove it, but it does not distract from the image itself.  The small watermark serve the purpose of 'embedding' copyright info (unlike EXIF which is bypassed with screenshot), and shows knowledge of copyright violation if they photoshop it out.

Much more than that is overkill in my mind, but then again, I'm not the one trying to protect my livelihood...

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huyzer
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Re: All your image can be downloaded from here
In reply to Clueless Wanderer, 11 months ago

Clueless Wanderer wrote:

rodskogj wrote:

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=site:hangitstraight.com&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=zlSBUtmULMbpiAeT6YC4Cg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1536&bih=772

Just google your site in google images...

HOLY SH*T ...and my day just got a lot worse :-/

Thanks for letting me know..

-- hide signature --

I just learned this from rodskogj, too!   Whoa!

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rodskogj
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Re: To watermark or not to watermark?
In reply to Clueless Wanderer, 11 months ago

Clueless Wanderer wrote:

Man, thanks for this

You have provided a really informative opinion with clear perspective.

"If someone cannot see "past" the watermark thinking it "ruins the viewing experience" they are unlikely those that would actually purchase from you" - RedFox88 - This is the kind of thing I was looking for when I originally posted, a perspective on potential buyers attitudes. Again, thanks

BTW, I knew I would have to filter a certain amount of responses

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Just remember RedFox88's advice is just one opinion.  He might be right, but its a different view than mine.  Admittedly I have never bought a photo from a website (I have plenty of my own to hang on the walls!), but whenever I browse photo sites that are heavily watermarked I find I quickly move on. Its too hard to see past the distracting text and I get no emotional attachment to the image because my eyes are drawn to the text, not the image.  Just my 2 cents worth...

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Clueless Wanderer
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Re: All your image can be downloaded from here
In reply to rodskogj, 11 months ago

rodskogj wrote:

Clueless Wanderer wrote:

rodskogj wrote:

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=site:hangitstraight.com&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=zlSBUtmULMbpiAeT6YC4Cg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1536&bih=772

Just google your site in google images...

HOLY SH*T ...and my day just got a lot worse :-/

Thanks for letting me know..

-- hide signature --

Bottom line is you can't worry excessively about it. End of the day they can get your images if they really want them.

Take reasonable precautions as you have done (i.e. prevent right click). I would probably add a small discrete watermark in bottom corner of images, not a big one. This way they have to make an effort to remove it, but it does not distract from the image itself. The small watermark serve the purpose of 'embedding' copyright info (unlike EXIF which is bypassed with screenshot), and shows knowledge of copyright violation if they photoshop it out.

Much more than that is overkill in my mind, but then again, I'm not the one trying to protect my livelihood...

"I'm not the one trying to protect my livelihood..." - You hit the nail on the head with this one. This is why I need to be tenacious to a point, but not too far

The inability to save images from the website, whist in the website had me feeling safe. However things highlighted by the other posters here has opened my eyes to how images can and are being farmed from the website (google) and left naked for others to save.

I know nothing is fool proof to the determined but I feel I can and need to make some form of effort.

I have added a link to a random image from istock as an example. Do you think a water mark similar to this (not taking up quite as much of the image) strikes a balance of being able to view the image (keeping potential customer's looking) and still having a water mark?

The big difference between my images and istock is that that a customer is looking at istock for an image to fulfil a need, where'as I need people to ponder and be captivated, hoping that it will lead to a sale.. Different head spaces, both needing watermark's. One able to use a bolder water mark than the other?

http://www.istockphoto.com/stock-photo-28971910-pasta-tagliatelle.php?st=b3c2380

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Clueless Wanderer
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Re: All your image can be downloaded from here
In reply to huyzer, 11 months ago

Man, i have spent day's getting google to index, etc, etc.. and now here I am requesting take down's left right and center :-o. Its mind blowing how many directions your website can get scattered once published..

I have also come across this article:

"Companies such as Google, Facebook, and new ones such as Pinterest have no fear of anything. They find safe haven in clauses of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act and put all responsibility for insuring copyrights on their users. In fact, Pinterest has the audacity to claim rights to an image posted to their site illegally … here’s some of the fine print.

By making available any Member Content through the Site, Application or Services, you hereby grant to Cold Brew Labs a worldwide, irrevocable, perpetual, non-exclusive, transferable, royalty-free license, with the right to sublicense, to use, copy, adapt, modify, distribute, license, sell, transfer, publicly display, publicly perform, transmit, stream, broadcast, access, view, and otherwise exploit such Member Content only on, through or by means of the Site, Application or Services.

So it appears if I pin an image by another photographer on their site (which they create a local jpeg by copying the original file from the site that was linked, and they do so my mining the code so right click blocks don’t stop them) they then claim they can do anything they want with that image. Notice they even use the term exploit. Then they turn around and put the responsibility back on the one pinning the image"

Excerpt taken from here:

http://www.cwaynefox.com/wordpress/protecting-your-images-with-digimarc/

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tcg550
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Re: All your image can be downloaded from here
In reply to Clueless Wanderer, 11 months ago

Clueless Wanderer wrote:

Man, i have spent day's getting google to index, etc, etc.. and now here I am requesting take down's left right and center :-o. Its mind blowing how many directions your website can get scattered once published..

I have also come across this article:

"Companies such as Google, Facebook, and new ones such as Pinterest have no fear of anything. They find safe haven in clauses of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act and put all responsibility for insuring copyrights on their users. In fact, Pinterest has the audacity to claim rights to an image posted to their site illegally … here’s some of the fine print.

By making available any Member Content through the Site, Application or Services, you hereby grant to Cold Brew Labs a worldwide, irrevocable, perpetual, non-exclusive, transferable, royalty-free license, with the right to sublicense, to use, copy, adapt, modify, distribute, license, sell, transfer, publicly display, publicly perform, transmit, stream, broadcast, access, view, and otherwise exploit such Member Content only on, through or by means of the Site, Application or Services.

So it appears if I pin an image by another photographer on their site (which they create a local jpeg by copying the original file from the site that was linked, and they do so my mining the code so right click blocks don’t stop them) they then claim they can do anything they want with that image. Notice they even use the term exploit. Then they turn around and put the responsibility back on the one pinning the image"

Excerpt taken from here:

http://www.cwaynefox.com/wordpress/protecting-your-images-with-digimarc/

You may be better off just printing them yourself and getting a storefront, staying off the internet completely.

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rodskogj
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Re: All your image can be downloaded from here
In reply to Clueless Wanderer, 11 months ago

Clueless Wanderer wrote:

rodskogj wrote:

Clueless Wanderer wrote:

rodskogj wrote:

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=site:hangitstraight.com&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=zlSBUtmULMbpiAeT6YC4Cg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1536&bih=772

Just google your site in google images...

HOLY SH*T ...and my day just got a lot worse :-/

Thanks for letting me know..

-- hide signature --

Bottom line is you can't worry excessively about it. End of the day they can get your images if they really want them.

Take reasonable precautions as you have done (i.e. prevent right click). I would probably add a small discrete watermark in bottom corner of images, not a big one. This way they have to make an effort to remove it, but it does not distract from the image itself. The small watermark serve the purpose of 'embedding' copyright info (unlike EXIF which is bypassed with screenshot), and shows knowledge of copyright violation if they photoshop it out.

Much more than that is overkill in my mind, but then again, I'm not the one trying to protect my livelihood...

"I'm not the one trying to protect my livelihood..." - You hit the nail on the head with this one. This is why I need to be tenacious to a point, but not too far

The inability to save images from the website, whist in the website had me feeling safe. However things highlighted by the other posters here has opened my eyes to how images can and are being farmed from the website (google) and left naked for others to save.

I know nothing is fool proof to the determined but I feel I can and need to make some form of effort.

I have added a link to a random image from istock as an example. Do you think a water mark similar to this (not taking up quite as much of the image) strikes a balance of being able to view the image (keeping potential customer's looking) and still having a water mark?

The big difference between my images and istock is that that a customer is looking at istock for an image to fulfil a need, where'as I need people to ponder and be captivated, hoping that it will lead to a sale.. Different head spaces, both needing watermark's. One able to use a bolder water mark than the other?

http://www.istockphoto.com/stock-photo-28971910-pasta-tagliatelle.php?st=b3c2380

Not too bad, but I would go even lighter on the watermark if you can. http://elliottneep.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/Wall-Art-Gallery/G0000W73wEot3Y5o/I0000.WOvgEP6NbQ might be too light for you, but it is non-obtrusive for the image. Stock photo watermarks serve the dual purpose of reminding the editor that the image is a low res image for composition only, not final image, and there the watermark needs to be prominent.

Personally I prefer the approach below because it does not take away from the image

http://www.nhm.ac.uk/visit-us/whats-on/temporary-exhibitions/wpy/photo.do?photo=3013&category=54&group=4

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Clueless Wanderer
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Re: All your image can be downloaded from here
In reply to rodskogj, 11 months ago

rodskogj wrote:

Clueless Wanderer wrote:

rodskogj wrote:

Clueless Wanderer wrote:

rodskogj wrote:

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=site:hangitstraight.com&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=zlSBUtmULMbpiAeT6YC4Cg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1536&bih=772

Just google your site in google images...

HOLY SH*T ...and my day just got a lot worse :-/

Thanks for letting me know..

-- hide signature --

Bottom line is you can't worry excessively about it. End of the day they can get your images if they really want them.

Take reasonable precautions as you have done (i.e. prevent right click). I would probably add a small discrete watermark in bottom corner of images, not a big one. This way they have to make an effort to remove it, but it does not distract from the image itself. The small watermark serve the purpose of 'embedding' copyright info (unlike EXIF which is bypassed with screenshot), and shows knowledge of copyright violation if they photoshop it out.

Much more than that is overkill in my mind, but then again, I'm not the one trying to protect my livelihood...

"I'm not the one trying to protect my livelihood..." - You hit the nail on the head with this one. This is why I need to be tenacious to a point, but not too far

The inability to save images from the website, whist in the website had me feeling safe. However things highlighted by the other posters here has opened my eyes to how images can and are being farmed from the website (google) and left naked for others to save.

I know nothing is fool proof to the determined but I feel I can and need to make some form of effort.

I have added a link to a random image from istock as an example. Do you think a water mark similar to this (not taking up quite as much of the image) strikes a balance of being able to view the image (keeping potential customer's looking) and still having a water mark?

The big difference between my images and istock is that that a customer is looking at istock for an image to fulfil a need, where'as I need people to ponder and be captivated, hoping that it will lead to a sale.. Different head spaces, both needing watermark's. One able to use a bolder water mark than the other?

http://www.istockphoto.com/stock-photo-28971910-pasta-tagliatelle.php?st=b3c2380

Not too bad, but I would go even lighter on the watermark if you can. http://elliottneep.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/Wall-Art-Gallery/G0000W73wEot3Y5o/I0000.WOvgEP6NbQ might be too light for you, but it is non-obtrusive for the image. Stock photo watermarks serve the dual purpose of reminding the editor that the image is a low res image for composition only, not final image, and there the watermark needs to be prominent.

Personally I prefer the approach below because it does not take away from the image

http://www.nhm.ac.uk/visit-us/whats-on/temporary-exhibitions/wpy/photo.do?photo=3013&category=54&group=4

Thanks for your opinion. Those Elliot Neep ones are cool I really like how big they are and still remaining subtle..  They appear to be behind the image rather than in front like the istock ones

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Clueless Wanderer
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Re: All your image can be downloaded from here
In reply to tcg550, 11 months ago

tcg550 wrote:

Clueless Wanderer wrote:

Man, i have spent day's getting google to index, etc, etc.. and now here I am requesting take down's left right and center :-o. Its mind blowing how many directions your website can get scattered once published..

I have also come across this article:

"Companies such as Google, Facebook, and new ones such as Pinterest have no fear of anything. They find safe haven in clauses of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act and put all responsibility for insuring copyrights on their users. In fact, Pinterest has the audacity to claim rights to an image posted to their site illegally … here’s some of the fine print.

By making available any Member Content through the Site, Application or Services, you hereby grant to Cold Brew Labs a worldwide, irrevocable, perpetual, non-exclusive, transferable, royalty-free license, with the right to sublicense, to use, copy, adapt, modify, distribute, license, sell, transfer, publicly display, publicly perform, transmit, stream, broadcast, access, view, and otherwise exploit such Member Content only on, through or by means of the Site, Application or Services.

So it appears if I pin an image by another photographer on their site (which they create a local jpeg by copying the original file from the site that was linked, and they do so my mining the code so right click blocks don’t stop them) they then claim they can do anything they want with that image. Notice they even use the term exploit. Then they turn around and put the responsibility back on the one pinning the image"

Excerpt taken from here:

http://www.cwaynefox.com/wordpress/protecting-your-images-with-digimarc/

You may be better off just printing them yourself and getting a storefront, staying off the internet completely.

This has crossed my mind. It was going to be global website first, local galleries second. This 'adventure' now has me questioning the directions I should be taking.

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Marx81
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Re: To watermark or not to watermark?
In reply to Clueless Wanderer, 11 months ago

I had often this experience of photos taken with no permission .

I no use watermarks , for the reason you mention .

I plan to react only for commercial use by big time companies .

If you get a photo for screensaver I no mind it .

My strategy is simple : I no put up on the Web photos I sell , photos I consider private .

http://www.flickr.com/photos/marxx/

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RedFox88
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Re: To watermark or not to watermark?
In reply to rodskogj, 11 months ago

rodskogj wrote:


I have never bought a photo from a website (I have plenty of my own to hang on the walls!), but whenever I browse photo sites that are heavily watermarked I find I quickly move on. Its too hard to see past the distracting text and I get no emotional attachment to the image because my eyes are drawn to the text, not the image. Just my 2 cents worth...

And your view is of a "taker" who wants to view everything without obstruction without compression.  And is exactly making my point.  Have you own photo gear to take your own pictures and doesn't have a regard for protecting images from those who might try and use it for some use - whether paid or non-paid it would still be unauthorized use of an image without permission/license.   Many people on DPR are here only to talk gear and see photos from the hobbyist side of things and not from the artist/pro side of things.

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bdjansen
Forum MemberPosts: 64
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Re: All your image can be downloaded from here
In reply to Clueless Wanderer, 11 months ago

Clueless Wanderer wrote:

rodskogj wrote:

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=site:hangitstraight.com&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=zlSBUtmULMbpiAeT6YC4Cg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1536&bih=772

Just google your site in google images...

HOLY SH*T ...and my day just got a lot worse :-/

Thanks for letting me know..

-- hide signature --

Man, talk about first world problems.

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