The worst thing about the DF is the Disappointment

Started 5 months ago | Discussions
Dave Luttmann
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Re: Not again, what?
In reply to Graham Hill, 5 months ago

Graham Hill wrote:

Chris G Hughes wrote:

I swear. The infantilism of this country is embarrassing at times.

Agreed. Why did you read a thread you clearly have no interest in????

Now you profess to know everyones interest?

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sandy b
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A rather cynical view.
In reply to Leif Goodwin, 5 months ago
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David314
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Re: Without using it, who knows how close or not close Nikon came
In reply to marike6, 5 months ago

marike6 wrote:

Since it appears to not fully cater to the retro niche and doesn't fully cater to the modern niche, I think it clearly falls into a worst of both worlds niche so I would say, no,

on the other hand if it had 8 fps with the 51 point af, (the mythical d700 replacement) better manual focus aid and a little more logical lineup on top of the camera (a worthy camera for old and new manual focus lenses) then yes, and they could have sold it for $3500

So perhaps the Df is not for you. That doesn't make the implementation bad or poorly thoughout. It makes it an implementation designed to appeal to as many Nikon users as possible, a camera that is equally at home with AF lenses as it is with MF lenses.

with all due respect to Bjorn who is the only person who has said that manual focus is better, there really doesn't seem to be any advantage for manual focus with the Df that doesn't exist already

A design intended to combine elements that appeal modern AF Nikon shooters longing for the superb low-light performance of the D4 sensor at a fraction of the D4 cost. And one also intended to appeal to users who prefer a slower, more methodical, traditional approach to photography and that also offers full compatability with pretty much all F-mount lenses ever made.

you can shoot slow and methodically with any of the nikon dslrs

astonishing enough, pre ai lenses mount quite nicely to the d5300 all the way bsck to the d40. In fact the d40 would mount practically any f mount lens

Early user reports by Nikon experts like Bjorn Rorslett are that the viewfinder is significantly easier for manually focussing than the D800.

simply no better than a d800

I'm not sure why users here who haven't seen or shot with the Df are writing it off as a poor implementation, but I suspect if the price had been an impossibly low $2000, those users would have been far less in number.

i suspect outside of a vocal minority on this website, there will be few that want to spend $2750 for a camera, let alone $3000 for the d800 and then the Df, and for gosh sake, have you seen the price in Europe?

no at  $1750 this would have sold more as it would have at $3500 if they would added more features

of course we can disagree

as built it is a camera that doesn't really officer any compelling features beyond the d800 and d600, and the price is a bit much just to get what is essentially a d600 with the d4 sensor

Compelling features?

  • It offers the D4 sensor with its large 7.3μm pixel pitch
  • smaller, more manageable files more appropriate for high volume shooters much like the D700.

why not buy a d3 or d3s, those would be even better!

  • Better build quality and less generic, more unique design

better than what? It appears to be much like a d600

  • smallest, lightest FF DSLR on the market

yeah that heavy 6d is 10 grams heavier.... D610 is 50 grams heavier

of course there is the sony a7, but obviously not a slr

  • It offers a dedicated AF-ON button, one of the number one complaints of D600 owners

and the d800?

  • From the Camera Store and Bjorn Rorlsett preview, it apparently offers the best, most modern LiveView implementation of any Nikon DSLR
  • it offers a totally different philosophy than a typical DSLR like the D600 in the form of mechanical exposure dials

aperture? use the thumb wheel , shutter speed? Since the dial is in full stops, probably lock it at 1/3 stop and use the thumbwheel. exposure And ISO? Surely a different strategy, but really no different than pushing a button, thumbing a wheel and watching the top lcd

it appears to me nikon went out of there way to make the interface and usage as close to the d800 as possible - I suspect that is how it will be used

  • Better battery life
  • Quieter shutter than both D600 and D800

To each his own. I think it looks like it's going to be a great camera and I will buy one for sure. Since I already have a D800, the D610 is not so interesting to me. YMMV.

Excited you will buy one i am sure it will take great images

It looks like a fun camera

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Leif Goodwin
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Re: A rather cynical view.
In reply to sandy b, 5 months ago

sandy b wrote:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=cr&CRid=1896890

Not in the least bit cynical. American industry was booming. The American public had no interest in a European war until they were forced to join in. For two years Britain was under threat of invasion by Germany, and America just stood by and sold us arms. It seems they would gave been happy to see the Nazis win. Once she unwillingly entered the war, many Americans lost their lives, as did other combatants.

We did not finish paying off the arms debt to America until 2006.

By the way Russia lost 20-40 million people during the war.

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Fogsville
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Re: Not again, what?
In reply to Chris G Hughes, 5 months ago

Chris G Hughes wrote:

Chris G Hughes wrote:

I swear. The infantilism of this country is embarrassing at times.

Which country is that then? Oh you mean the allmighty USA - the only country on the whole interweb thingy. May I bow to you sir.

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Notice the irony? I'm slamming my home nation (the USA) and getting taken to task for assuming that it's so great? Or something?

Calm down, sparky.

fwiw, the 'slamming" of your home nation was clearly understood by all.  But what was being questioned was your assumption that all the posters who preceded your post were indeed American.  DPReview is obviously an international forum with posters from around the globe.  These 'infantile' reactionary comments in respect to the Df are coming from everywhere.  I think "the infantilism of human beings is embarrassing at times" would have been more relevant and inclusive.

Think globally, act locally.

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Graham Hill
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Re: Not again, what?
In reply to Dave Luttmann, 5 months ago

Dave Luttmann wrote:

Graham Hill wrote:

Chris G Hughes wrote:

I swear. The infantilism of this country is embarrassing at times.

Agreed. Why did you read a thread you clearly have no interest in????

Now you profess to know everyones interest?

Did you READ his post?

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Lance B
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Is there a place for a MF only Df?
In reply to Kodachrome200, 5 months ago

I hear many lamenting the "big bright viewfinders" found in the old film cameras and I must say that I agree that it would be nice to experience that again. However, with the advent of auto focus and their associated requirements, we can no longer expect the big bright VF of old. So, maybe there is a case for a manual focus only version of the Df? Amongst the issues that face auto focus VFs, this would mean that the mirror would not need to be half opaque for the AF module and all the light would go to a big bright VF.

The problem is, hoa many would actually buy one?

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raztec
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Re: Repeating nonsense doesnt make it true
In reply to Leif Goodwin, 5 months ago

You do realise it is only a camera i.e. a consumer product? I can't understand why people polarise into two factions having childish arguments. Why?

It seems extremely silly I agree. However, you have to understand that there are a lot of people who have invested heavily in Nikon glass who are let down again and again and again by Nikon's marketing department.

But the marketing department is only responding to fanboys who have more money than taste or discretion. So, it's these fanboys who chase mpx and useless knobs to mask their insecurity that create this market which allows Nikon to put less than their best foot forward.

But we know Nikon can do better, like the D300 or the D700 (except for the 95% viewfinder). But what they hell are they doing putting a 39 pt AF that covers such a small area in the D600, or dropping the AF button? etc. etc.

Fanboys are as much to blame for Nikon's demise, as Nikon execs are. Those who have heavily invested in Nikon glass are justifiably irate.

Raz

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marike6
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Re: Without using it, who knows how close or not close Nikon came
In reply to David314, 5 months ago

David314 wrote:

A design intended to combine elements that appeal modern AF Nikon shooters longing for the superb low-light performance of the D4 sensor at a fraction of the D4 cost. And one also intended to appeal to users who prefer a slower, more methodical, traditional approach to photography and that also offers full compatability with pretty much all F-mount lenses ever made.

you can shoot slow and methodically with any of the nikon dslrs

astonishing enough, pre ai lenses mount quite nicely to the d5300 all the way bsck to the d40. In fact the d40 would mount practically any f mount lens

You can mount any f lens on a D5300, no pre-AI Nikkor will meter with it at all.

You can if you want look at all the limitations of using non-CPU lenses on the D600 for example.

http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/d600/compatibility02.htm

Early user reports by Nikon experts like Bjorn Rorslett are that the viewfinder is significantly easier for manually focussing than the D800.

simply no better than a d800

You are making an assumption.  First of all I don't have much problem accurately focussing my AI lenses on my D800, but if Rorslett reports that the viewfinder is improved for MF (I've been reading him for years and think he's quite knowledgeable) I'm going to have to take his word for it.

I'm not sure why users here who haven't seen or shot with the Df are writing it off as a poor implementation, but I suspect if the price had been an impossibly low $2000, those users would have been far less in number.

i suspect outside of a vocal minority on this website, there will be few that want to spend $2750 for a camera, let alone $3000 for the d800 and then the Df, and for gosh sake, have you seen the price in Europe?

no at $1750 this would have sold more as it would have at $3500 if they would added more features

of course we can disagree

$1750 if you want Nikon to actually lose money on the Df.  I don't.  A Nikon that is not doing well financially is not good for anyone.

as built it is a camera that doesn't really officer any compelling features beyond the d800 and d600, and the price is a bit much just to get what is essentially a d600 with the d4 sensor

Compelling features?

  • It offers the D4 sensor with its large 7.3μm pixel pitch
  • smaller, more manageable files more appropriate for high volume shooters much like the D700.

why not buy a d3 or d3s, those would be even better!

I'd love a D3s, but last time I checked it was discontinued and used ones are much more expensive than $2700.

  • Better build quality and less generic, more unique design

better than what? It appears to be much like a d600

No.  The D600 only has magnesium alloy top plate and rear.  The only part on the Df that aren't magnesium alloy are the front plate near the DOF preview.

I rather like the D600 it looks and feels solid.  It does not appear as solid and well made as the Df, but I haven't held the Df.  Of course the Df is Made in Japan, and AFAIK, the D600 is not.

I'm not arguing that in the UK and in Europe the Df isn't priced high.  But so are all the other Nikon cameras relative to US prices.  All Nikons and Canons have different pricing scheme per region.  In the US, to price the Df between the D610 and D800 make perfect sense to me.  YMMV.

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Alpha Tech
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Re: Is there a place for a MF only Df?
In reply to Lance B, 5 months ago

A lot of camera owners buy Leicas and get along with MF fine. But you have to understand its limitations. MF can be very frustrating after one has used AF for years. Don't even think about MF for action shots. Leica forums have posts left by users who sold their camera for an AF model because they have fast moving children. Lastly, there is aging eyesight problem. A lot of forum members are well into middle age or older. Using MF is a lot more difficult at age 50 than it is at age 20.

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marike6
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Re: Is there a place for a MF only Df?
In reply to Lance B, 5 months ago

Lance B wrote:

I hear many lamenting the "big bright viewfinders" found in the old film cameras and I must say that I agree that it would be nice to experience that again. However, with the advent of auto focus and their associated requirements, we can no longer expect the big bright VF of old. So, maybe there is a case for a manual focus only version of the Df? Amongst the issues that face auto focus VFs, this would mean that the mirror would not need to be half opaque for the AF module and all the light would go to a big bright VF.

The problem is, hoa many would actually buy one?

Agree.  Some Df critics are already using words like "niche camera".  Could you imagine if Nikon had made it a MF only camera with a split prism finder and center weighted metering?

Nikon is running a business and for this reason it is their duty to try to not only make money, but to support as many photographers as possible.  And the majority of Nikon owners have a good selection of AF-S Nikkors.  A camera that is optimized for AF and Matrix metering doesn't preclude the use of manual lenses but an all manual camera sure does prevent the use of AF lenses.

I could see Nikon possibly making a MF APS-C niche camera.  I don't see them making a low production run, MF Full Frame.  It would exclude too many Nikon users.  A Df style camera seems to will more likely than not give good usability with both AF and MF F-mount lenses.  And if the Df is successful, perhaps we will see a higher end Df2 with interchangeable finders.

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new boyz
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Re: The worst thing about the DF is the Disappointment
In reply to larrywilson, 5 months ago

larrywilson wrote:

Why can't a good focusing screen be designed into a modern camera?

Maybe because modern DSLR mirror reflects only 70% of the light to the focusing screen, lets 30% of the light pass - that will then be deflected by the second mirror to the focusing module.

Older mirror reflects 100% of the incoming light as they don't have any focusing sensor. Light meter is located on the prism itself.

If an older focusing screen used in the new camera, the viewfinder will be darker simply because it got less light.

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MJW1
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Re: The worst thing about the present is the future; the second worst is the past
In reply to new boyz, 5 months ago

The Df is Nikon's first retro digital camera. If it is successful there is every chance of getting a Df mini or DF light in the future - something APS-C sized, simpler and cheaper. It might happen, it might not.

In the meantime, I am like many on here who cannot afford a Df. Luckily my existing cameras still take excellent photos. No, really. I know there are many people out there for whom the latest release makes everything that went before totally redundant, but yesterday's model still works just as well as it did yesterday. Really.

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Mark Alan Thomas
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Re: Not again, what?
In reply to Chris G Hughes, 5 months ago

Chris G Hughes wrote:

Good GOD, people! Enough with the utterly asinine belly aching about the Df. Buy it, don't buy it but please, by Odin's Beard, SHUT UP ABOUT IT. It's just another camera. It isn't a cure for cancer. It isn't a terrorist attack. It isn't anything of any significant consequence. Get a sense of perspective.

I swear. The infantilism of this country is embarrassing at times.

I find your reaction far more infantile than the original post.

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Hulamike
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Re: ????
In reply to ragspix, 5 months ago

Yeah, i regretted that. A little. I usually save that for people who carry over comments from thread to th...wait a minute!

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Hulamike
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Re: Not again, what?
In reply to Leif Goodwin, 5 months ago

Ask your parents about the Marshall plan.

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Toccata47
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Re: Chris Niccolls is WRONG
In reply to Alpha Tech, 5 months ago

I have no stake in this but I've been rather impressed by his openness about to highlight the weak points in of a review item. Of course the camera store is selling cameras and isn't a third party review source (which incidentally almost always need advertising revenue to continue to review). He seems to realize quite rightly that what may be a turn off for some might be an asset to others.

The point is every review is de facto biased, it's just a matter of sorting out what utter bs and what may be useful to you.

Alpha Tech wrote:

marike6 wrote:

Chris Niccolls from The Camera Store does a proper Nikon Df video preview and seems very positive about the Df.

WRONG!

First of all, Chris is a salesman. He MUST like whatever product he covers in a video. He does this well, but he isn't going to tell you to not buy a camera because it is rubbish.

Secondly, did you actually WATCH this video? Chris pointed out that his team could not shoot with the Df because it was a preproduction model. It was nonfunctional, or for legal reasons his team was forbidden to shoot with it. Either way, this is not a proper video review! Just talking about a camera and not testing it is a PREVIEW.

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David314
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Re: Without using it, who knows how close or not close Nikon came
In reply to marike6, 5 months ago

marike6 wrote:

David314 wrote:

A design intended to combine elements that appeal modern AF Nikon shooters longing for the superb low-light performance of the D4 sensor at a fraction of the D4 cost. And one also intended to appeal to users who prefer a slower, more methodical, traditional approach to photography and that also offers full compatability with pretty much all F-mount lenses ever made.

you can shoot slow and methodically with any of the nikon dslrs

astonishing enough, pre ai lenses mount quite nicely to the d5300 all the way bsck to the d40. In fact the d40 would mount practically any f mount lens

You can mount any f lens on a D5300, no pre-AI Nikkor will meter with it at all.

You can if you want look at all the limitations of using non-CPU lenses on the D600 for example.

http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/d600/compatibility02.htm

looks the same as the Df with the exception of metering non AI lenses - which is simply a software feature where you manually set the aperture - something Nikon should have done a long time ago anyway

simply no better than a d800

You are making an assumption.

so are you

First of all I don't have much problem accurately focussing my AI lenses on my D800, but if Rorslett reports that the viewfinder is improved for MF (I've been reading him for years and think he's quite knowledgeable) I'm going to have to take his word for it.

well, the green dot has not changed and the point is not that you cant MF with D800, or any Nikon camera for that matter, it is that the Df doesn't add any improved focusing aid over the D800, D600, D40 etc.

I'm not sure why users here who haven't seen or shot with the Df are writing it off as a poor implementation, but I suspect if the price had been an impossibly low $2000, those users would have been far less in number.

i suspect outside of a vocal minority on this website, there will be few that want to spend $2750 for a camera, let alone $3000 for the d800 and then the Df, and for gosh sake, have you seen the price in Europe?

no at $1750 this would have sold more as it would have at $3500 if they would added more features

of course we can disagree

$1750 if you want Nikon to actually lose money on the Df. I don't. A Nikon that is not doing well financially is not good for anyone.

nor is building a camera and putting it at high price and not selling any - at least with a popular low price camera you sell more lenses, flashes, and bring more people over to Nikon

as built it is a camera that doesn't really officer any compelling features beyond the d800 and d600, and the price is a bit much just to get what is essentially a d600 with the d4 sensor

Compelling features?

  • It offers the D4 sensor with its large 7.3μm pixel pitch
  • smaller, more manageable files more appropriate for high volume shooters much like the D700.

why not buy a d3 or d3s, those would be even better!

I'd love a D3s, but last time I checked it was discontinued and used ones are much more expensive than $2700.

and a Df is $2750 in the US, only and you can find D800's for $2800 - another $750-$1000 and you can get a D3s

and the Df is $750 more than the D600

it is not that the Df is not a fine camera, but it has to compete with a lot of other fine cameras with features and price

  • Better build quality and less generic, more unique design

better than what? It appears to be much like a d600

No. The D600 only has magnesium alloy top plate and rear. The only part on the Df that aren't magnesium alloy are the front plate near the DOF preview.

I think you might be overstating the difference, there appears to be very little if any magnesium on the front

- if your definition of build quality is amount of metal, I don't see much difference between the d600 and Df although the D800 at roughly the same price or much less if you are in Europe, seems to have more metal

I rather like the D600 it looks and feels solid. It does not appear as solid and well made as the Df, but I haven't held the Df. Of course the Df is Made in Japan, and AFAIK, the D600 is not.

yet the same priced more metal d800 is made in japan

I'm not arguing that in the UK and in Europe the Df isn't priced high. But so are all the other Nikon cameras relative to US prices.

but the Df is about the same price as the D800 in the US and much more than the D800 in Euroope

All Nikons and Canons have different pricing scheme per region. In the US, to price the Df between the D610 and D800 make perfect sense to me. YMMV.

since the Df is essentially the same price as the D800, it doesn't make much sense to me

so yes, a great sensor in a different looking camera, with an appeal to the past

I think ultimately, the styling trumped usability, people forget the current two wheel design has evolved over many years and there are some very good reasons for its use - obviously Nikon agrees as they kept it on the Df

again, I think it very disappointing how close this camera came to being a real out of the park home run with the some improvements in manual focus and ergonomics

and even the reviews that seem to be very enthusiastic of the camera seem to question the price point

now obviously, people like to buy cool things and will pay a premium to do such a thing, I am as guilty as anyone of that and I do hope that the Df is a financial success for Nikon as it will presage other innovative designs

and I know you will enjoy your Df

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marike6
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Why be disappointed before you even try it...
In reply to Kodachrome200, 5 months ago

Kodachrome200 wrote:

Nope, I wrote my opinion once in organized and clear way and a bunch of you all DF apologists lost your minds and worte some immatue silly things to defend the honor of a camera you dont even own. I am not crying. I am just not buying this camera

But, no offense, you didn't write your opinion in an organized clear way as you are kind of all over the place. You wrote that you were hoping for a split prism screen but go on the write that the Df should "have had video and a 51 point AF system".

Is that a new type of 51-point Split Prism finder developed specially for this Nikon that you were hoping for?

And you wrote that "they should have made the camera just as small as was possible. this camera is not the smallest and lightest full frame dslr on the market. It should have been" without realizing that the Df actually is the smallest, lightest full frame DSLR on the market.

And most of your assumptions and negativity were conclusions that you came to BEFORE even shooting with the camera which is the most puzzling part about your diatribe. The fact is that very few if any reviewers have actually shot with a production Df at this time but some of the most well respected Nikon shooters like Bjorn Rorslett had overwhelmingly positive experiences within the Df. Yet for some reason you prefer to stick to this narrative of being disappointed to the point of almost being annoyed at the large number of Nikon users who don't share your "disappointment" in the Df.

I'm quite sure that if Nikon had made the Df a more niche, all-manual camera with a split prism and Center Weighted metering like the Leica M, far more people would be complaining that Nikon didn't provide support for their expensive AF-S Nikkors.

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ragspix
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Re: ????
In reply to Hulamike, 5 months ago

Hulamike wrote:

Yeah, i regretted that. A little. I usually save that for people who carry over comments from thread to th...wait a minute!

Hehehe...

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