2013 Camera of the year ... ? (Per SteveH)

Started Nov 6, 2013 | Polls
marike6
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Re: 2013 Camera of the year ... ? (Per SteveH)
In reply to DT200, Nov 7, 2013

DT200 wrote:

Clayton1985 wrote:

Dennis wrote:

Clayton1985 wrote:

Apart from image quality. The EM1 is without any doubt the better camera.

This is probably funnier than you meant for it to be.

Why ? Most people get that IQ beyond a certain threshhold isn't worth paying for or sacrificing other features for.

Sure most people get that... The problem is that you're trying to determine what that threshold is...

I have to agree with Dennis. Most people aren't willing to admit it, but their "threshold" is looking good on Facebook, a smartphone or tablet. Others bump that up to 8x10 or 11x14 prints. Between those 2 groups you have about 98% of camera users covered.

Facebook?  Excuse me but I thought we were talking about enthusiasts, serious amateurs and even professionals.   Who cares that most cameras including 1/2.3" compacts are good enough for Facebook?  We are talking about real cameras for serious users and to disadvantage yourself by choosing a m43 camera when the rest of the industry is shooting large sensor cameras doesn't make any sense.  Size, size, size, that's all mirrorless fans seem to care about, and it's frankly shocking since a high end camera that is 10% smaller and lighter than another usually means you get to carry a slightly smaller camera bag.  Nothing more.

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Rod McD
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Re: The whole concept of a Camera of the Year is flawed
In reply to blue_skies, Nov 7, 2013

Hi,

Sorry to be Jonah, but IMO the whole concept of a Camera of the Year award should not be taken too seriously.  Just like every other award for the best car, boat, golf club, smart phone or whatever.  To me, it's just a marketing device - a flag flying award for the manufacturers and for reviewers like Mr Huff and other photography internet sites.  The notion of comparing photographic apples and oranges as if they're relevant to an identical and completely rational audience is ridiculous.

The simple reason that the A7s aren't "blowing away" the EM1 is that people like and choose different things.  Viva la difference, and thank goodness we have both out there to choose from.  People can debate the features, lens choices, right through to the maths of equivalent  ISOs, DOFs and any other technicality, but there is a point where a camera meets the 'good enough' test for each individual.  And after that it's more personal than rational.  There is absolutely no substitute for simply liking a camera.

Rod

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Brendan Delaney
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Re: 2013 Camera of the year ... ? (Per SteveH)
In reply to Jogger, Nov 7, 2013

Jogger wrote:

The problem is that the EM1 doesnt really excell at anything. Its too big as a carry-everywhere camera,

No.

its not fast enough to be an event/pj camera,

No

the image quality is many tiers below FF cameras.

'Many tiers'? Exaggeration surely

What would you use it for exactly when there are far better options along those parameters.

It works for me so don't trash it.....

Pointless post.

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PVCdroid
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Re: 2013 Camera of the year ... ? (Per SteveH)
In reply to Brendan Delaney, Nov 7, 2013

Brendan Delaney wrote:

Jogger wrote:

The problem is that the EM1 doesnt really excell at anything. Its too big as a carry-everywhere camera,

No.

its not fast enough to be an event/pj camera,

No

the image quality is many tiers below FF cameras.

'Many tiers'? Exaggeration surely

What would you use it for exactly when there are far better options along those parameters.

It works for me so don't trash it.....

Pointless post.

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You all came to this forum so must have expected these comments. I agree with everything Jogger said and will add that images from the EM1 are flat looking. I can spot an MFT image right away. It takes me awhile to figure out what is in the foreground/background.

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marike6
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Re: 2013 Camera of the year ... ? (Per SteveH)
In reply to Dennis, Nov 7, 2013

Dennis wrote:

Clayton1985 wrote:

Sure most people get that... The problem is that you're trying to determine what that threshold is and most people don't agree with you.... unless you're suggesting that more people buy m4/3 vs APS-C and full frame.

Not suggesting anything of the sort. I'm saying that you can evaluate the EM1 as a 4/3 camera and the A7r as a FF camera. And to me, the EM1 is a better m43 camera than the A7r is a FF camera.

But "Camera of the Year" doesn't mean which camera is the best within its respective lineup or format type, it means best, most innovative camera.  And there is NO WAY to make the argument that the EM-1, which is basically an EM-5 with a tacked on grip and a few AF refinements, is a more important, innovative or better camera than the A7r.  None.

Steve Huff's "Camera of the Year" really has to consider that as a blogger he's made a conscious decision to go with the less obvious m43 camera for his choice of Camera of the Year as doing so will be generate the most controversy, and consequently the most attention for his website via Trackbacks, Likes and links to like the one in this thread.  It's the same technique used by Ken Rockwell, Thom Hogan and others.  Saying something controversial, against common wisdom, and people will talk, you'll get more traffic.

Also as a Leica user/fan, clearly Huff wants to do his best to marginalize the Sony A7 and A7r because of how convincingly the Sony outperforms his Leica M for IQ, lens adaptability, LCD quality, professional level video specification, etc. By claiming that the EM-1 is actually the better camera than the A7r, he is in a sense lessening the beating that his Leica takes by the Sony A7 and A7r.  "The Sony has great IQ, but Leica has all those great lenses with a wonderful viewfinder and the EM-1 has slightly faster AF and is actually a better camera" kind of thinking.  Yeah, Steve, good save.

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DT200
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Re: 2013 Camera of the year ... ? (Per SteveH)
In reply to marike6, Nov 7, 2013

marike6 wrote:

DT200 wrote:

Clayton1985 wrote:

Dennis wrote:

Clayton1985 wrote:

Apart from image quality. The EM1 is without any doubt the better camera.

This is probably funnier than you meant for it to be.

Why ? Most people get that IQ beyond a certain threshhold isn't worth paying for or sacrificing other features for.

Sure most people get that... The problem is that you're trying to determine what that threshold is...

I have to agree with Dennis. Most people aren't willing to admit it, but their "threshold" is looking good on Facebook, a smartphone or tablet. Others bump that up to 8x10 or 11x14 prints. Between those 2 groups you have about 98% of camera users covered.

Facebook? Excuse me but I thought we were talking about enthusiasts, serious amateurs and even professionals.

LOL!

So tell me how many "professional" photos you have downloaded and then printed larger than 11x14 to admire?  None.  In fact, I bet the only "Pro" photos you view are on a monitor with maybe 2MP or less resolution.

As I said 98% of camera buyers do not need or use anything above 11x14 prints.  If we only cared about the other 2%, then we would be discussing medium format cameras and such.

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Clayton1985
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Re: Camera of the Year?
In reply to viztyger, Nov 8, 2013

viztyger wrote:

Clayton1985 wrote:

What components of the A7R are from the RX1?

And even if that is the case I don't see how you can consider a fixed lens camera to be the same design challenge as putting a 36mp FF sensor in the A7R body. No question the A7 and A7R are both radically new.

Parts of the chassis and controls are RX1 heritage. From the front and top, I'd say the A7 body's styling has the DNA of the RX1 while from the back it's more reminiscent of the NEX-7 with its tilting screen and wrap-around grip. Of course that grip extends around to the front, where it looks as if it's tacked onto to an RX1 body.

Certainly the design challenges of fixed and interchangeable lens cameras are different, but in my opinion the new A7 and A7R don't challenge the status quo the same way the RX1 did one year ago. At that time we didn't have any really compact full frame option, so the RX1 was something truly revolutionary. Now, with an RX1 already on the market, we're only adding the ability to change lenses to a kit that is slightly larger. While useful, I just don't think it's as major of a step forward as the RX1 represented.

If the A7 and A7R had radically better autofocus or a vastly improved EVF or even a new feature like sensor based IS, then these new cameras would have been a more significant step forward. Don't get me wrong, I think they're great cameras, but what's really so revolutionary here besides the FF sensor behind the E-mount?

You marginalize some pretty significant achievements with your comments   "only adding the ability to change lenses",  "what's really so revolutionary besides the FF sensor behind the E-mount?"

That is precisely what's so revolutionary....   a small camera with a FF sensor behind the E-mount that has the ability to change lenses.   Also don't forget that the A7r is the first and only 36mp mirrorless camera too and it has more resolution than all other DSLRs besides the D800/e.   This shouldn't be overlooked as it was the reason the D800/e was/is such a success.

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DT200
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Re: Camera of the Year?
In reply to Clayton1985, Nov 8, 2013

Clayton1985 wrote:

viztyger wrote:

Clayton1985 wrote:

What components of the A7R are from the RX1?

And even if that is the case I don't see how you can consider a fixed lens camera to be the same design challenge as putting a 36mp FF sensor in the A7R body. No question the A7 and A7R are both radically new.

Parts of the chassis and controls are RX1 heritage. From the front and top, I'd say the A7 body's styling has the DNA of the RX1 while from the back it's more reminiscent of the NEX-7 with its tilting screen and wrap-around grip. Of course that grip extends around to the front, where it looks as if it's tacked onto to an RX1 body.

Certainly the design challenges of fixed and interchangeable lens cameras are different, but in my opinion the new A7 and A7R don't challenge the status quo the same way the RX1 did one year ago. At that time we didn't have any really compact full frame option, so the RX1 was something truly revolutionary. Now, with an RX1 already on the market, we're only adding the ability to change lenses to a kit that is slightly larger. While useful, I just don't think it's as major of a step forward as the RX1 represented.

If the A7 and A7R had radically better autofocus or a vastly improved EVF or even a new feature like sensor based IS, then these new cameras would have been a more significant step forward. Don't get me wrong, I think they're great cameras, but what's really so revolutionary here besides the FF sensor behind the E-mount?

You marginalize some pretty significant achievements with your comments "only adding the ability to change lenses", "what's really so revolutionary besides the FF sensor behind the E-mount?"

That is precisely what's so revolutionary.... a small camera with a FF sensor behind the E-mount that has the ability to change lenses. Also don't forget that the A7r is the first and only 36mp mirrorless camera too and it has more resolution than all other DSLRs besides the D800/e. This shouldn't be overlooked as it was the reason the D800/e was/is such a success.

I agree with some of what you say, but much is compromised by making a smaller camera.  If your read, many full frame owners prefer the substantial grip that helps when holding a camera with large FF telephoto lenses.   You will also see many arguments about how the latest EVF can't compare to OVFs (I disagree, but we are talking FF owners), and finally most FF cameras excel at focusing and focus tracking.  They are the preferred cameras of professionals at major sporting events.  The A7 is missing this (the A99 is has it of course).

So now you have the A7r, which has the D800e sensor from over a year ago,  and EVF like the EM-1, and in a nice compact size.   The evolution here is the size which is pretty cool, and I am sure others will try to copy, but nothing else is new and there were compromises made.   It also at a price point (along with the lenses) that most camera buyers will not consider it.

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DT200
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I look at it this way....
In reply to Dennis, Nov 8, 2013

Dennis wrote:

Clayton1985 wrote:

Sure most people get that... The problem is that you're trying to determine what that threshold is and most people don't agree with you.... unless you're suggesting that more people buy m4/3 vs APS-C and full frame.

Not suggesting anything of the sort. I'm saying that you can evaluate the EM1 as a 4/3 camera and the A7r as a FF camera. And to me, the EM1 is a better m43 camera than the A7r is a FF camera. Camera of the year doesn't mean "you should buy this camera". It can't, even if you wanted it to.

- Dennis

-- hide signature --

You make a great point above.

I look at it this way.  If I buy a FF camera, what do I want it for?   Sports? Nature? Birding? Kids?  macros?

What can the A7 or A7r do better than any other FF camera?  The ONLY thing I can think of is use legacy lenses, but even Nikon has been doing that for a long while.

Now what does it not do as well as other FF cameras?  The grip is not as good.  Some say an EVF can't match an OVF.  There are almost no native lenses, and even those have smaller apertures than what is available for other systems, the focus is is not as good.  The specs like FPS are slower.

Don't get me wrong for some people the A7 and A7R will be the best choice.

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new boyz
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Re: 2013 Camera of the year ... ? (Per SteveH)
In reply to blue_skies, Nov 8, 2013

I'm certainly bias as I use Sony gear but -

1. EM1 is an update, A7 is first of its kind. Revolutionary is kinda synonymous with "xxx of the Year" award.

2. EM1 is expensive for a µ43rd camera, A7's price is dirt cheap for a full frame(new record).

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blue_skies
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Re: I look at it this way....
In reply to DT200, Nov 8, 2013

DT200 wrote:

Dennis wrote:

Clayton1985 wrote:

Sure most people get that... The problem is that you're trying to determine what that threshold is and most people don't agree with you.... unless you're suggesting that more people buy m4/3 vs APS-C and full frame.

Not suggesting anything of the sort. I'm saying that you can evaluate the EM1 as a 4/3 camera and the A7r as a FF camera. And to me, the EM1 is a better m43 camera than the A7r is a FF camera. Camera of the year doesn't mean "you should buy this camera". It can't, even if you wanted it to.

- Dennis

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You make a great point above.

I look at it this way. If I buy a FF camera, what do I want it for? Sports? Nature? Birding? Kids? macros?

What can the A7 or A7r do better than any other FF camera? The ONLY thing I can think of is use legacy lenses, but even Nikon has been doing that for a long while.

Now what does it not do as well as other FF cameras? The grip is not as good. Some say an EVF can't match an OVF. There are almost no native lenses, and even those have smaller apertures than what is available for other systems, the focus is is not as good. The specs like FPS are slower.

Don't get me wrong for some people the A7 and A7R will be the best choice.

You sound so desperate now - what? 100 posts in this forum in one day?

I guess that the A7/r is finally getting to you.

Well, I guess that it should, as the A7 body is only priced 20% higher than the EM-1 body, and includes 4x the sensor size...

No wonder you keep finding faults.

Read up on shutter shock on the EM-1 - people are returning their EM-1 cameras already.... I would!

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Cheers,
Henry

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Brian Caslis
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Re: I look at it this way....
In reply to blue_skies, Nov 8, 2013

blue_skies wrote:

...

No wonder you keep finding faults.

Read up on shutter shock on the EM-1 - people are returning their EM-1 cameras already.... I would!

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

One person did. Wow, it's a disaster!  Why are you so determined to criticize this camera? I have an E-M1 but I don't go around saying the A7 is going to be terrible. There are some things it will be great at and some it will suck at (like any camera). Every camera is a trade-off (even full frame ones, amazing). Get what you like. Not everyone agrees with you. Don't try to convince everyone, it's not going to work.

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blue_skies
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Re: I look at it this way....
In reply to Brian Caslis, Nov 8, 2013

Brian Caslis wrote:

blue_skies wrote:

...

No wonder you keep finding faults.

Read up on shutter shock on the EM-1 - people are returning their EM-1 cameras already.... I would!

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Cheers,
Henry

One person did. Wow, it's a disaster! Why are you so determined to criticize this camera? I have an E-M1 but I don't go around saying the A7 is going to be terrible. There are some things it will be great at and some it will suck at (like any camera). Every camera is a trade-off (even full frame ones, amazing). Get what you like. Not everyone agrees with you. Don't try to convince everyone, it's not going to work.

You sound reasonable. DT200 does not.

If he didn't exist, we would not have these strange exchanges. Hopefully these get deleted (again)

I have nothing against the EM-1 - I have something against how DT200 rants and keeps spoiling the forum. The EM-1 is just where his banter goes... and I counter to his inputs. Criticizing the EM-1 is easy, Criticizing the A7 is easy. Criticizing any camera is easy. There will always be flaws, that is my point.

There are a number of very reasonable exchanges out there, DT200's are not.

And he and I (and many more of us) go back a long way....

I would ignore him if he didn't throw 100 posts into a forum with no other reason than to provoke and confuse.

If anyone did this in the m43 forum, they would be banned....

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Henry

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Clayton1985
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Re: 2013 Camera of the year ... ? (Per SteveH)
In reply to DT200, Nov 8, 2013

DT200 wrote:

marike6 wrote:

DT200 wrote:

Clayton1985 wrote:

Dennis wrote:

Clayton1985 wrote:

Apart from image quality. The EM1 is without any doubt the better camera.

This is probably funnier than you meant for it to be.

Why ? Most people get that IQ beyond a certain threshhold isn't worth paying for or sacrificing other features for.

Sure most people get that... The problem is that you're trying to determine what that threshold is...

I have to agree with Dennis. Most people aren't willing to admit it, but their "threshold" is looking good on Facebook, a smartphone or tablet. Others bump that up to 8x10 or 11x14 prints. Between those 2 groups you have about 98% of camera users covered.

Facebook? Excuse me but I thought we were talking about enthusiasts, serious amateurs and even professionals.

LOL!

So tell me how many "professional" photos you have downloaded and then printed larger than 11x14 to admire? None. In fact, I bet the only "Pro" photos you view are on a monitor with maybe 2MP or less resolution.

As I said 98% of camera buyers do not need or use anything above 11x14 prints. If we only cared about the other 2%, then we would be discussing medium format cameras and such.

And those 98% don't need m4/3 either so maybe you should hop over there and discuss the merits of Nikon 1, RX100, and the Coolpix P7800.

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Deak
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Re: 2013 Camera of the year ... ? (Per SteveH)
In reply to marike6, Nov 8, 2013

marike6 wrote:

It's not like m43 has any decent telephoto lenses anyway, just a bunch of variable aperture consumer 55-200 type zooms.

Panasonic 35-100mm f2.8?

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Deak

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marike6
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Re: 2013 Camera of the year ... ? (Per SteveH)
In reply to DT200, Nov 8, 2013

DT200 wrote:

marike6 wrote:

DT200 wrote:

Clayton1985 wrote:

Dennis wrote:

Clayton1985 wrote:

Apart from image quality. The EM1 is without any doubt the better camera.

This is probably funnier than you meant for it to be.

Why ? Most people get that IQ beyond a certain threshhold isn't worth paying for or sacrificing other features for.

Sure most people get that... The problem is that you're trying to determine what that threshold is...

I have to agree with Dennis. Most people aren't willing to admit it, but their "threshold" is looking good on Facebook, a smartphone or tablet. Others bump that up to 8x10 or 11x14 prints. Between those 2 groups you have about 98% of camera users covered.

Facebook? Excuse me but I thought we were talking about enthusiasts, serious amateurs and even professionals.

LOL!

So tell me how many "professional" photos you have downloaded and then printed larger than 11x14 to admire? None. In fact, I bet the only "Pro" photos you view are on a monitor with maybe 2MP or less resolution.

What on earth are you talking about? With my D800 and X-E1, of course I print large. I do it all the time. I have an Epson R2400 and I buy good paper and print as large as 11x14 all the time. Why on earth would i buy such a camera? For web posting? I have even used Adorama's print service to have a poster sized print done. And the whole reason I bought a high resolution camera was because I do copy work for a group of New York artists and printmakers for whom I'm digitalizing their portfolios that they previously had done with slides and a few of them want to make giclee prints from the files.

"2 mp or less"? wtf?

But you seem to have missed the point. This is a photography website where enthusiasts and even some professionals come to talk about high end gear. Whatever IQ people are satisfied with for Facebook "selfies" is not at all relevant in a discussion about the best high end camera of 2013.

As I said 98% of camera buyers do not need or use anything above 11x14 prints. If we only cared about the other 2%, then we would be discussing medium format cameras and such.

Again, we are not concerned with 98% of camera and smartphone users and neither is Steve Huff or DPR. Last time I checked this was Sony NEX forum and we were talking about a FF NEX camera and a high end m43 camera. How on earth are the imaging needs of regular non-photographers most of who use smartphones and compacts relevant AT ALL?

For crying out loud, I feel like I'm running in quicksand whenever people sidetrack enthusiast and prosumer camera discussions by talking about the snapshot needs of Grandma, Junior, Facebook and Instagram users.

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Dennis
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Re: It doesn't work that way...
In reply to marike6, Nov 8, 2013

marike6 wrote:

Last year, there was no doubt in my mind that the D800E was "camera of the year". It raised the bar for ALL cameras, and it brought MF type resolution to DSLRs for the first time.

Sure, makes sense to me.  So this year, why award it to a camera with the same sensor that's otherwise a lesser camera than last years camera of the year ?

- Dennis

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marike6
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Revolutionary vs Evolutionary
In reply to Dennis, Nov 8, 2013

Dennis wrote:

marike6 wrote:

Last year, there was no doubt in my mind that the D800E was "camera of the year". It raised the bar for ALL cameras, and it brought MF type resolution to DSLRs for the first time.

Sure, makes sense to me. So this year, why award it to a camera with the same sensor that's otherwise a lesser camera than last years camera of the year ?

Because Sony managed to shrink the form factor of the casing and shave off some 300 g, something that a number of enthusiast photographers seem to want.  D800 IQ in a small, agile camera, as appropriate in the studio or shooting landscapes as it is for street photography or any other application where small size is a plus.

The EM-1 on the other hand is iterative, basically an EM-5 in a DSLR style casing with a deeper grip and a weightier body that balances better with larger zooms (but also contradicts the concept of m43 and small, lightweight bodies).

Revolutionary for the A7 versus evolutionary for the EM-1.  I'm not saying the EM-1 is a bad camera, it's just that other than a slightly more robust AF module, it doesn't really bring anything new to the table.

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tn1krr
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Re: I look at it this way....
In reply to DT200, Nov 8, 2013

DT200 wrote:

Dennis wrote:

Clayton1985 wrote:

Sure most people get that... The problem is that you're trying to determine what that threshold is and most people don't agree with you.... unless you're suggesting that more people buy m4/3 vs APS-C and full frame.

Not suggesting anything of the sort. I'm saying that you can evaluate the EM1 as a 4/3 camera and the A7r as a FF camera. And to me, the EM1 is a better m43 camera than the A7r is a FF camera. Camera of the year doesn't mean "you should buy this camera". It can't, even if you wanted it to.

- Dennis

-- hide signature --

You make a great point above.

I look at it this way. If I buy a FF camera, what do I want it for? Sports? Nature? Birding? Kids? macros?

What can the A7 or A7r do better than any other FF camera? The ONLY thing I can think of is use legacy lenses, but even Nikon has been doing that for a long while.

You cannot think too much then. A7 and A7R blast every other FF camera when it comes to manual focus. Real Live View with peaking/magnification through EVF is not available in any other FF so A7R is is actually best digital back there is for Zeiss ZE/ZF.2 glass including the Otus (we do not consider this legacy glass, right?), with Metabones adapter the A7R is *the* digital for Canon TS-E lenses as it beats Canon offering significantly in DR, Resolution and manual focus usability. There are a few specifal applications where OVF still rules (star photography), but other than that the EVF beats OVF handly when manually focusing fast glass to pinpoint accuracy. High resolution sensor + fast glass used wide open puts more emphasis on MF than ever, the mirror PDAF is fast but accuracy is not enuff in this scenario.

Now what does it not do as well as other FF cameras? The grip is not as good. Some say an EVF can't match an OVF. There are almost no native lenses, and even those have smaller apertures than what is available for other systems, the focus is is not as good. The specs like FPS are slower.

I've used A7R and IMO the grip is excellent for camera of that size and I have large hands, EVF beats OVF handily for most MF applications and lens adaptability is superb. I tested Canon 100/2.8L IS on the A7R + Metabones MArk III and with the new EVF is even more nice than it is on my Nex-7.

A7(R) is not the best sports camera (though it can be an ok one with LA-EA4 and Alpha glass), but it does beat every other FF there is in several fronts.

 tn1krr's gear list:tn1krr's gear list
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX100 III Sony Alpha 7R Sony a6000 Canon EF 100mm f/2.8L Macro IS USM Kenko Teleplus Pro 300 AF 1.4x +11 more
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