2013 Camera of the year ... ? (Per SteveH)

Started 5 months ago | Polls
Todd3608
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Re: 2013 Camera of the year ... ? (Per SteveH)
In reply to jasby, 5 months ago

They should be ahead in IQ.  They are alot more expensive.  Way too expensive considering the lens prices...

jasby wrote:

Ridiculous, comparing FF to MFT. !!!!!!!!

a7/a7R miles ahead in IQ.

John

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Chez Wimpy
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file size pretty good actually
In reply to sean lancaster, 5 months ago

sean lancaster wrote:

I prefer the A7 over the A7R (but this is ignorant in that I have yet to see the AF differences personally). I also am happy with the file sizes of my RAW images on my Canon 6D and the A7 is 24, so that bump should be okay. The A7R is 36 . . . ouch for my needs.

Actually, the file sizes of the A7R are not much larger than my 5D2 (actually smaller in some cases) and the A7 files are about 25% smaller.  Typically I am at 30mb for base-ISO landscapes while these A7r samples are in the 37mb range.  If I go higher ISO on my 5D2, it is well past 40mb, but the A7r seems to stay the same regardless of ISO setting.  Canon is just not very efficient.  I notice this with my m43 cameras as well, with my 16MP GH2 typically 18mb at base ISO (and rising) with my 16MP EM5 at 14mb (to about 16mb at ISO3200).  Sony sensors get clean results which compress well.

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fcimbar
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Nikon Df
In reply to blue_skies, 5 months ago

How will you explain if the camera of the year 2013 is not this one !

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Atlasman
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Re: 2013 Camera of the year ... ? (Per SteveH)
In reply to blue_skies, 5 months ago

I chose the A7 over the E-M1. But I'm not a supporter that it has to be one or the other. I own the E-M5 and I can tell you, it has served me beyond my expectations. But to me full-frame is an essential in remaining competitive. And then there is that intangible: artistic expression. In my world, the m4/3 and full-frame systems are brothers, not enemies.

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Leandros S
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Pentax K-3 is missing from the list...
In reply to blue_skies, 5 months ago

...as is the GX7, I suppose. In any case, it's a bit questionable to already conclude that the year is over, or to ignore that there are non-system cameras worthy of consideration. Also, why is this being posted on the NEX forum? Hmm...

Steve Huff? Meh.

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marike6
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Like trying to convince a Fiat is better than a Ferrari.
In reply to blue_skies, 5 months ago

In my view, the Sony A7 and A7r trounce the EM-1 in pretty much every conceivable way, to the extent that the EM-1 is not really even in the running.

The EM-1 is expensive relative to the A7 and 5-axis IBIS is one of the most talked about least important features as it is only relevant for static subjects (won't even get into shutter shock).

And the IQ of both A7 cameras is on such a different level that nobody could ever take seriously a claim for the EM-1 as best new camera. Looking at files side-by-side tells you all you need to know.

The few m43 users that I know are now totally rethinking their investment in m43 gear.  And the reason is the Sony A7.

IMHO, by far the best and most exciting new cameras of the year by a huge margin are the Sony A7 and the Nikon Df.

The EM-1 is really just a larger, heavier EM5 with a tacked on grip and with few IQ gains (in fact it loses some high ISO performance vs the EM5).  Frankly the EM-1 is not as good as the Nikon D7100 or Pentax K-3, both released in 2013.  It just doesn't have as good IQ, tracking ability or DOF control compared to the D7100 or K3 AND it's more expensive.

But Huff is primarily interested in smooth relationships with his mostly mirrorless fan readership when he creates these kinds of "best of" lists. So it's not rare to see puzzling choices like this one.

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marike6
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Re: Nikon Df
In reply to fcimbar, 5 months ago

fcimbar wrote:

How will you explain if the camera of the year 2013 is not this one !

The two best and most exciting cameras of the year are the Sony A7 and Nikon Df.  The EM-1 is not even up past the D7100 or K-3, IMHO.

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johnlegrand
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Re: 2013 Camera of the year ... ? (Per SteveH)
In reply to blue_skies, 5 months ago

Apart from image quality. The EM1 is without any doubt the better camera.

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marike6
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It doesn't work that way...
In reply to johnlegrand, 5 months ago

johnlegrand wrote:

Apart from image quality. The EM1 is without any doubt the better camera.

Removing IQ from a camera comparison is like testing the speed of two cars without any tires.

The Sony A7 and A7r are simply in another league of camera in a large part because of its near class leading IQ. The EM-1 provides essentially the same IQ as something like a Panasonic GX7, which is to say that it's really not competitive with FF or even the better APS-C cameras.

If the EM-1 has fractionally faster AF than the A7, it's not of any real consequence considering the A7 doesn't exactly have slow AF.  And for most subjects the two cameras seem to be more or less on par in terms of speed of operation, responsiveness AF system robustness. All the Sony A7 AF test videos I've seen on YouTube indicate that its AF system is quite capable so to describe it as "sluggish" is not only an exaggeration, but is simply untrue.

And when you consider the A7's high end video features, huge professional level frame rate choices, video IQ performance vs the tacked on, rather pedestrian 30p of the EM-1, the comparison becomes even more lopsided in favor of the A7/A7r.

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Mellowmark
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Re: 2013 Camera of the year ... ? (Per SteveH)
In reply to blue_skies, 5 months ago

Who cares what Steve 'Huff and Puff' says, he reviews every camera with lots of hyperbole and exclamation marks and words like 'awesome'. Just another self-appointed 'camera reviewer' like many others online.  

I am far more interested in what 'ordinary people' think of a camera - ones who buy it with their own money and use it regularly over a period of time. And who are not worried about not getting any more cameras to review or not getting invited on any more freebie trips or not making enough affiliate commissions because they say something negative (but honest) about a camera.

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Dennis
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Re: 2013 Camera of the year ... ? (Per SteveH)
In reply to blue_skies, 5 months ago

I won't side with Steve on a camera of the year choice, but I can certainly respect his decision and his rationale.

What do the A7/A7r offer ?  FF sensors found in DSLR bodies last year crammed into NEX bodies with all the compromises of mirrorless (plus loud shutters and slower AF than most mirrorless) that have 4 native lenses available (5th on the way and the ubiquitous promise of more to come).

Nice enough.  If IQ is your thing, these sensors exist in other cameras.  If insane IQ and compactness is critical, then this promises to be your system provided you can live with its compromises.

It definitely has a lot of peoples attention.  And should sell well.

The EM1 is a polished product; the pinnacle of a system that's been under continuous development for several years, and it shows.  The IQ pretty well matches 16MP APS-C at this point, good enough for a lot of pro and amateur uses.  AF is very fast with the 12-40/2.8 - if as fast with the upcoming 40-150, then it could be a viable alternative to APS-C with f/2.8 zooms (DOF not quite as shallow, which is good or bad depending on the shot).  And after a couple years of playing around, duplicating Panasonics lenses and reiterating kit zooms, the lens lineup is looking really good for an awful lot of uses.  And on top of all that, it gives 4/3 users a nice upgrade path (cleaner than the SLT approach IMO).

While a handful of people will look at the prices and the sizes of the body and consider both, I think that most people are in the market exclusively for one or the other ... if you're looking at 4/3 as a viable option, then your IQ demands are such that Fuji 'X' and Sony E mount (not FE) should be on your radar; not FF.  And so it's kind of weird picking between the two.

Leica would need to do something disruptive to be considered camera of the year; their periodic iterations just aren't that interesting outside of the small world of Leica owners.

And the Nikon DF is too much of a niche product.

- Dennis

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marike6
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Re: 2013 Camera of the year ... ? (Per SteveH)
In reply to Dennis, 5 months ago

Dennis wrote:

I won't side with Steve on a camera of the year choice, but I can certainly respect his decision and his rationale.

What do the A7/A7r offer ? FF sensors found in DSLR bodies last year crammed into NEX bodies with all the compromises of mirrorless (plus loud shutters and slower AF than most mirrorless) that have 4 native lenses available (5th on the way and the ubiquitous promise of more to come).

The less lenses argument isn't really relevant in a "camera of the year" discussion, in my view. The Sony A7 has enough lenses so far for most uses. And telephotos will be soon coming. It's not like m43 has any decent telephoto lenses anyway, just a bunch of variable aperture consumer 55-200 type zooms.

Nice enough. If IQ is your thing, these sensors exist in other cameras. If insane IQ and compactness is critical, then this promises to be your system provided you can live with its compromises.

It definitely has a lot of peoples attention. And should sell well.

The EM1 is a polished product; the pinnacle of a system that's been under continuous development for several years, and it shows. The IQ pretty well matches 16MP APS-C at this point, good enough for a lot of pro and amateur uses. AF is very fast with the 12-40/2.8 - if as fast with the upcoming 40-150, then it could be a viable alternative to APS-C with f/2.8 zooms (DOF not quite as shallow, which is good or bad depending on the shot). And after a couple years of playing around, duplicating Panasonics lenses and reiterating kit zooms, the lens lineup is looking really good for an awful lot of uses. And on top of all that, it gives 4/3 users a nice upgrade path (cleaner than the SLT approach IMO).

IQ is actually not quite up to APS-C levels either in high ISO, DR or resolution. Factor in the more shallow DOF of APS-C providing an overall more pleasing, professional looking image in many cases. Your 12-40 f/2.8 that mentioned above is a heck of a lot less interesting on m43 than on APS-C or FF. With the relatively deep DOF as a result of the m43 sensor, images can look more flat with worse subject isolation. So to say that m43 IQ matches APS-C is not entirely accurate.

While a handful of people will look at the prices and the sizes of the body and consider both, I think that most people are in the market exclusively for one or the other ... if you're looking at 4/3 as a viable option, then your IQ demands are such that Fuji 'X' and Sony E mount (not FE) should be on your radar; not FF. And so it's kind of weird picking between the two.

If small size with great IQ is a priority then Fujifilm or Sony E mount or FF are ALL perfectly valid choices. I cannot imagine why FF would not be on someone's radar. Notice all the dumping my m43 gear for the A7 threads on m43 forums.

Leica would need to do something disruptive to be considered camera of the year; their periodic iterations just aren't that interesting outside of the small world of Leica owners.

Steve Huff is a Leica shooter and fan often showcasing some really nice, large aperture Leica lenses. The only reason Leica gear is not interesting to ALL photographers is high price. Images on Huff's website from his Leica cameras look miles ahead of any of his Olympus EM5 or EM-1 images. There really is no comparison. There is no reason why the Leica M couldn't be camera of the year. None. If I could afford a Leica M with 50 f/1.4 Summilux I would take it over ANY crop sensor camera period.

And the Nikon DF is too much of a niche product.

A niche product? Not at all, in fact it will likely sell far more units than the EM-1 and possibly more than the Sony A7r. D4 sensor in a beautiful magnesium alloy body with a large, bright OVF. There is zero "niche" about such a camera. The excitement its announcement has generated online is higher than any other camera in recent memory and interest in the Nikon Df is extremely high.

An example of a "niche" camera is the Sigma DP or Ricoh GR, it is not a FF Nikon DSLR.

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Dennis
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Re: 2013 Camera of the year ... ? (Per SteveH)
In reply to marike6, 5 months ago

marike6 wrote:

The less lenses argument isn't really relevant in a "camera of the year" discussion, in my view.

We'll have to disagree there.  A camera without lenses is pretty useless.

As for the A7 having enough lenses, that's only if you adapt them to Alpha via the bulky SLT adapter, giving you a big, heavy, bulky equivalent of an Alpha system that the market has largely rejected already.  So if all you're getting is an Alpha kit by the time you adapt lenses, what makes it a candidate for camera of the year ?

IQ is actually not quite up to APS-C levels either in high ISO, DR or resolution. Factor in the more shallow DOF of APS-C providing an overall more pleasing, professional looking image in many cases. Your 12-40 f/2.8 that mentioned above is a heck of a lot less interesting on m43 than on APS-C or FF. With the relatively deep DOF as a result of the m43 sensor, images can look more flat with worse subject isolation. So to say that m43 IQ matches APS-C is not entirely accurate.

Not quite, but close enough to be able to disregard differences for a more compact system.

More shallow DOF is only an issue if you need more shallow DOF.  The f/1.8 primes on m43 would be sufficient for me.  And the f/2.8 zooms would be a mixed bag.  There are times I wish for more DOF but don't want to have to raise ISO.

As for the 12-40/2.8, first off, it isn't "mine" ... I don't own any m43 stuff (RX100, NEX-5 and a D7000).  As for how interesting it is, it's small, it focuses really fast, it provides nice range (very slightly beating 16-50 or 24-70 alternatives) and is fast enough for a lot of uses.  Sure, 24-70 on FF (whether f/2.8 or f/4) wins on speed, but if you need that, then you're comparing apples to oranges anyway.  If you could mold it, you could probably fit the EM1 and the 12-40 inside a 24-70/2.8.

A "camera of the year" award isn't intended to say this camera is better than that.  There's no right answer to that.  It's someone's take on which camera is more ... significant ... in some way.  Which one shakes up the market or innovates or raises some bar or achieves some zen-like perfection.  There's an argument to be made for the A7r as well as the DF.  And I think there's an argument to be made for the EM1 as well.  Like I said, I won't side with Steve's award, but I'll certainly acknowledge that his arguments have merit.  (Personally, I would not be able to pick any of them ... either to award or to buy ... I like and dislike things about all three in equal measure).

- Dennis

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Clayton1985
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Re: 2013 Camera of the year ... ? (Per SteveH)
In reply to johnlegrand, 5 months ago

Apart from image quality. The EM1 is without any doubt the better camera.

This is probably funnier than you meant for it to be.

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Dennis
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Re: It doesn't work that way...
In reply to marike6, 5 months ago

marike6 wrote:

johnlegrand wrote:

Apart from image quality. The EM1 is without any doubt the better camera.

Removing IQ from a camera comparison is like testing the speed of two cars without any tires.

That's like saying the car of the year will always be the one with the most horsepower.

It absolutely does work that way, because cameras are bought by people with varying needs.  People don't blindly buy the camera with the best IQ; they buy the one that's best for their needs.

Further, best IQ is basically best sensor.  And in this case, the same sensor Sony sold to Nikon last year.

If you want to give out a camera of the year award to the camera with the best IQ, knock yourself out.  Meanwhile, others have their own criteria.  (You might not want to stop at the A7r, though ... if IQ is all that matters, check out Phase One).

- Dennis

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Dennis
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Re: 2013 Camera of the year ... ? (Per SteveH)
In reply to Clayton1985, 5 months ago

Clayton1985 wrote:

Apart from image quality. The EM1 is without any doubt the better camera.

This is probably funnier than you meant for it to be.

Why ?  Most people get that IQ beyond a certain threshhold isn't worth paying for or sacrificing other features for.

- Dennis

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Clayton1985
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Re: 2013 Camera of the year ... ? (Per SteveH)
In reply to Dennis, 5 months ago

Dennis wrote:

Clayton1985 wrote:

Apart from image quality. The EM1 is without any doubt the better camera.

This is probably funnier than you meant for it to be.

Why ? Most people get that IQ beyond a certain threshhold isn't worth paying for or sacrificing other features for.

Sure most people get that...    The problem is that you're trying to determine what that threshold is and most people don't agree with you....  unless you're suggesting that more people buy m4/3 vs APS-C and full frame.

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DT200
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Re: 2013 Camera of the year ... ? (Per SteveH)
In reply to Clayton1985, 5 months ago

Clayton1985 wrote:

Dennis wrote:

Clayton1985 wrote:

Apart from image quality. The EM1 is without any doubt the better camera.

This is probably funnier than you meant for it to be.

Why ? Most people get that IQ beyond a certain threshhold isn't worth paying for or sacrificing other features for.

Sure most people get that...    The problem is that you're trying to determine what that threshold is...

I have to agree with Dennis.  Most people aren't willing to admit it, but their "threshold" is looking good on Facebook, a smartphone or tablet.  Others bump that up to 8x10 or 11x14 prints.  Between those 2 groups you have about 98% of camera users covered.

It all reminds me of the 1970s when people would buy cars with v8 engines and speedometers that went up to 180MPH.  Did everyone try to drive that fast in those cars?  No.

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Dennis
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Re: 2013 Camera of the year ... ? (Per SteveH)
In reply to Clayton1985, 5 months ago

Clayton1985 wrote:

Sure most people get that... The problem is that you're trying to determine what that threshold is and most people don't agree with you.... unless you're suggesting that more people buy m4/3 vs APS-C and full frame.

Not suggesting anything of the sort.  I'm saying that you can evaluate the EM1 as a 4/3 camera and the A7r as a FF camera.  And to me, the EM1 is a better m43 camera than the A7r is a FF camera.  Camera of the year doesn't mean "you should buy this camera".  It can't, even if you wanted it to.

- Dennis

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marike6
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Re: It doesn't work that way...
In reply to Dennis, 5 months ago

Dennis wrote:

marike6 wrote:

johnlegrand wrote:

Apart from image quality. The EM1 is without any doubt the better camera.

Removing IQ from a camera comparison is like testing the speed of two cars without any tires.

That's like saying the car of the year will always be the one with the most horsepower.

It absolutely does work that way, because cameras are bought by people with varying needs. People don't blindly buy the camera with the best IQ; they buy the one that's best for their needs.

No but we are not talking about every day consumers shopping for cameras, we are talking about enthusiast, serious amateur photography students and professionals.  Assuming that most modern cameras are fast enough, with robust enough AF systems for a most subject, it makes little sense to start from a place of disadvantage regarding IQ.  For this reason, the majority of professional photographers will shoot FF or even MF to remain competitive.  A camera of the year must at the very least have IQ equivalent to the best of the rest of the market.

Further, best IQ is basically best sensor. And in this case, the same sensor Sony sold to Nikon last year.

If you want to give out a camera of the year award to the camera with the best IQ, knock yourself out. Meanwhile, others have their own criteria. (You might not want to stop at the A7r, though ... if IQ is all that matters, check out Phase One).

Last year, there was no doubt in my mind that the D800E was "camera of the year".  It raised the bar for ALL cameras, and it brought MF type resolution to DSLRs for the first time.

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