the K3 is perfectly tiimed to hit C and N where they hurt

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paulkienitz
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the K3 is perfectly tiimed to hit C and N where they hurt
8 months ago

I've been looking at some threads of Nikonians hurting over the lack of a D400, and something somebody said there crystallized exactly why they're in pain, and why the situation is no better in Canonland.  It is this: for the last few years, neither of those companies has offered a new high-speed action oriented body outside of the top end pro photojournalist tier!  Many users of both brands are desperate for an affordable camera that is fast, regardless of whether it's FF or crop.  And this means that the K-3 is not just looking good because it's new and is briefly ahead of competing offerings... it is, for the moment, offering something that the big two refuse to sell you unless you pay three or four times the price!  It's looking like a very good time for a C or N user, if they're at all interested in action, to switch to Pentax.  (Or to Oly.)  I think we'll pick up more converts than we are used to getting on a normal new release.

Of course, those wanting a fast camera may be rather disappointed with SDM, so if (as faintly rumored) they are working on updates of the star lenses with new motors, they'd better be quick about it, before the D7200 and 80D come out with major speed upgrades.

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Nosoupforyou
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Re: the K3 is perfectly tiimed to hit C and N where they hurt
In reply to paulkienitz, 8 months ago

Yes, they are flocking by the tens.

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MightyMike
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Re: the K3 is perfectly tiimed to hit C and N where they hurt
In reply to paulkienitz, 8 months ago

I like the enthusiasm, I give it no more than 6 months and C & N will have their 7DII and D400 and i'm sure they'll give the K-3 a significant run for its money... its only logical, now there is always the chance they don't have anything significant up their sleeves and will falter further but that would be unlikely.

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paulkienitz
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Re: the K3 is perfectly tiimed to hit C and N where they hurt
In reply to MightyMike, 8 months ago

MightyMike wrote:

I like the enthusiasm, I give it no more than 6 months and C & N will have their 7DII and D400 and i'm sure they'll give the K-3 a significant run for its money... its only logical, now there is always the chance they don't have anything significant up their sleeves and will falter further but that would be unlikely.

I don't think it'll happen that way.  C and N are committed to pushing people toward full frame, and one of the threads I was reading was about a Nikon employee saying categorically that there is absolutely no intention of ever making a D400.  I think Canon has reached a similar policy decision.  Besides, an 8D or D400 would be substantially more expensive than a K-3.  This means that C and N would have to compete by upgrading their top consumer camera, not by refreshing their crop pro camera.  So we'll have to expect a D7200 to be substantially faster than a D7100, but probably still cheaper and plasticier than a K-3, and the 80D likewise, and that will take a while because the 70D is still new.  I think that six months from now the K-3 will still be ahead, unless Nikon makes an egregious jump in megapixels for the sake of bragging rights, which will tend to penalize them in speed.

Their longer term answer will probably include making a 5D4 or D900 which is fast.  But then we still come out looking good because those will cost so much.

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GossCTP
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Re: the K3 is perfectly tiimed to hit C and N where they hurt
In reply to MightyMike, 8 months ago

MightyMike wrote:

I like the enthusiasm, I give it no more than 6 months and C & N will have their 7DII and D400 and i'm sure they'll give the K-3 a significant run for its money... its only logical, now there is always the chance they don't have anything significant up their sleeves and will falter further but that would be unlikely.

I agree, but I also find it startling that Canon does not appear in the "Cameras receiving the most clicks in reviews and specs in the last five days." at all. I don't think I have ever seen that the whole time I've been a member of the site. Perhaps something is out of whack with the site, but the latest camera reviewed is a Canon SLR, was from several days ago, and doesn't even appear in the list. Either something is amiss, or times they are a changin....

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viking79
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Re: the K3 is perfectly tiimed to hit C and N where they hurt
In reply to paulkienitz, 8 months ago

I see it as the K-3 being about equivalent to a 7d (4 year old body), with a better sensor of course and they still lack the lens support that the 7d has (the more important aspect).

However, I do think it would appeal to people looking for a D400, but it really speaks volumes about how advanced the D300 was at the time (6+ years ago).  Even the D300s was about 4 years ago and was just a video upgrade and maybe a couple other small features.

It definitely shows Pentax is now competitive in an area of the market that peaked about 4 years ago.  However, I think there is still a niche for such a market and the K-3 really has an advantage on Nikon/Canon for those that want compact size.

Honestly, if I were looking at an APS-C DSLR I would buy the K-3 in a heartbeat.

Eric

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Zvonimir Tosic
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Don't bet on it ... Nikon may materialise D400 out of thin air.
In reply to paulkienitz, 8 months ago

paulkienitz wrote:

Of course, those wanting a fast camera may be rather disappointed with SDM, so if (as faintly rumored) they are working on updates of the star lenses with new motors, they'd better be quick about it, before the D7200 and 80D come out with major speed upgrades.

K-3 is a very fine camera, but Pentax is merely catching up with it with the rest of the more advanced world. And yes, they have finally caught with it, but there is nothing at this moment that either C or N users can truly benefit by going to Pentax alone. (Unless they want to change the flavour of their photography completely.)

They will most likely demand same levels of motorised lens performance, which SDM lenses unfortunately cannot provide.

It's not the camera alone, it's a complex system. Pentax has never had any aspirations to strive to please the professionals, and therefore to have an excuse for continuous investment in advanced technologies. Therefore, it has fallen prey to its own mediocrity.

K-3 is only a first baby step forward — let's not get too enthusiastic about it. We still have no idea what will happen to flagship DA* zoom lenses and primes for example — and with that level of obscurity, even I as a Pentaxian cannot use to persuade anyone to switch for good.

In regards to K-3, neither C or N give a damn about Pentax. They only observe each other's moves. If there is a slight chance C may introduce a 7DII, Nikon will materialise D400 out of thin air. And vice versa.

But what they are doing now, is playing a dangerous chess game, trying to persuade all the users that it's the FF they really want, and forgetting that in the last 12 years it was APS-C that made their names worthwhile in the world of digital photography.

Judging by sales figures and overall rant, they indeed are asking too much from people; because they have created people's buying habits, taught them and demonstrated with excellent APS-C designs such are 7D, D300, D7000, etc. that there is actually nothing wrong with the APS-C DSLR at all.
They have made us smarter, and now they want to make us all dumber ... it doesn't work.

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Felixography
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Re: the K3 is perfectly tiimed to hit C and N where they hurt
In reply to paulkienitz, 8 months ago

You need to get a comparison of the K3 to the D7100 and/or the 70D done by DigitalRev TV on youtube like they did for K5II and the D7100 here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJ9MsmECULw

Just a thought.

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garyknrd
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Re: the K3 is perfectly tiimed to hit C and N where they hurt
In reply to Felixography, 8 months ago

I'm excited about the possibilities with Sigma lenses. But will wait until the testing is done. As far as a Canon replacement. Not in my lifetime. ( lens )

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I don't see the argument here ...
In reply to paulkienitz, 8 months ago

.. The K3 is, if anything, only marginally ahead of the D7100 in specs. Slighly faster frame rate, slightly better buffer. But remember these are only the specs.

In real life shooting, of a user base of many thousands (of any brand camera), how many want to fill a buffer with RAW shots in a single burst? 1% ? 0.5% ? How about 0.05% ? I'm sure it wouldn't be many more than that. So, are these things really that big a deal? I don't think Pentaxians should get carried away with how great the K3 is. I suspect in AF capability and flash capability (the important stuff after sensor capacity and IQ) of the 4 year old D300s is STILL superior to the K3. Unless the K3 has really advanced exponentially over the K5.

And remember, Pentax lenses might be very capable of producing great images, but speed demons they are not. Nor are the zooms in the same league as some of the nikon glass that I've tried and some that I own. Let's not get carried away.

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Jim in Hudson
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Re: I don't see the argument here ...
In reply to emem, 8 months ago

emem wrote:

.. The K3 is, if anything, only marginally ahead of the D7100 in specs. Slighly faster frame rate, slightly better buffer. But remember these are only the specs.

In real life shooting, of a user base of many thousands (of any brand camera), how many want to fill a buffer with RAW shots in a single burst? 1% ? 0.5% ? How about 0.05% ? I'm sure it wouldn't be many more than that. So, are these things really that big a deal? I don't think Pentaxians should get carried away with how great the K3 is. I suspect in AF capability and flash capability (the important stuff after sensor capacity and IQ) of the 4 year old D300s is STILL superior to the K3. Unless the K3 has really advanced exponentially over the K5.

And remember, Pentax lenses might be very capable of producing great images, but speed demons they are not. Nor are the zooms in the same league as some of the nikon glass that I've tried and some that I own. Let's not get carried away.

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A difference of 33 uncompressed RAW images vs 6 is not a "slightly better buffer". And it matters a lot to wildlife shooters. A guy I know is an enthusiast wildlife photographer and he uses a D4 precisely because it has both a very big buffer and high frame rate. He said those are critical to capturing the very best animal images.

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paulkienitz
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Re: the K3 is perfectly tiimed to hit C and N where they hurt
In reply to viking79, 8 months ago

viking79 wrote:

It definitely shows Pentax is now competitive in an area of the market that peaked about 4 years ago.

"An area of the market that peaked about 4 years ago", my pancreas.  People still want fast cameras now for the same reasons they did then.  "The market" didn't move away from providing that; two particular companies did, and they left a lot of angry and disappointed customers behind by doing so.

I assume your rationale for saying this is that the K-3 is a crop camera in a world moving toward full frame.  But it has nothing to do with sensor size: when it comes to quickness, the current full frame offerings from the big two are no less lacking than their crop offerings, even at twice the price of the K-3... which is positioned directly at the level where the big two do actively sell lots of crop bodies.

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paulkienitz
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Re: I don't see the argument here ...
In reply to emem, 8 months ago

emem wrote:

In real life shooting, of a user base of many thousands (of any brand camera), how many want to fill a buffer with RAW shots in a single burst? 1% ? 0.5% ? How about 0.05%

What the number is, you and I can't guess, but what we do know is that whoever that group is, C and N have been ignoring them for years, and they've created plenty of grumpy threads about it.

And that number does include me, by the way, and I'm someone who wouldn't have even thought of himself as in such a category even one year ago.

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MightyMike
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Re: I don't see the argument here ...
In reply to emem, 8 months ago

emem wrote:

.. The K3 is, if anything, only marginally ahead of the D7100 in specs. Slighly faster frame rate, slightly better buffer. But remember these are only the specs.

5 shots raw on the D7100... that is easy for even the average shooter to fill, 28 shots RAW is rather hard to fill IMO

In real life shooting, of a user base of many thousands (of any brand camera), how many want to fill a buffer with RAW shots in a single burst? 1% ? 0.5% ? How about 0.05% ? I'm sure it wouldn't be many more than that. So, are these things really that big a deal?

Again 5 shots, easy to fill for 99% of people even the novice photogs, 28 shots, well then you're right at 0.05% of photogs.

I don't think Pentaxians should get carried away with how great the K3 is. I suspect in AF capability and flash capability (the important stuff after sensor capacity and IQ) of the 4 year old D300s is STILL superior to the K3. Unless the K3 has really advanced exponentially over the K5.

Over the K-5 yes, over the K-5IIs less so but still improved. compared with the D300s probably no real difference except for low light focus going to the Pentax now (since the K-5IIs).

And remember, Pentax lenses might be very capable of producing great images, but speed demons they are not. Nor are the zooms in the same league as some of the nikon glass that I've tried and some that I own. Let's not get carried away.

True, I keep telling people that a lot of the AF speed is lens dependent and not camera dependent, my F70-210mm F4-5.6 and F35-70mm F3.5-4.5 are lightning fast and I'd put them against the fastest in any brand but many Pentax lenses aren't quite so fast.

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viking79
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Re: the K3 is perfectly tiimed to hit C and N where they hurt
In reply to paulkienitz, 8 months ago

paulkienitz wrote:

viking79 wrote:

It definitely shows Pentax is now competitive in an area of the market that peaked about 4 years ago.

"An area of the market that peaked about 4 years ago", my pancreas. People still want fast cameras now for the same reasons they did then. "The market" didn't move away from providing that; two particular companies did, and they left a lot of angry and disappointed customers behind by doing so.

Sorry, I know it is an area that is still popular, my point is that the emphasis is no longer in that spot of the market (4 years ago the 7d and D300 were the cameras).  I really like what Pentax did, and I do think it fills that niche well.  However, I still think they are very late to the market.

I think the K-7 and K-5 were both not quite enough to gain any market traction other than with current Pentax users.  This was at the point where Hoya was trying to kill Pentax I think   K-7 was perfectly fine from my perspective for what I wanted, but if I was looking for a fast action camera it wouldn't have been the K-7.

Eric

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In reply to paulkienitz, 8 months ago

Ricoh needs more lenses and accessories to draw users from the Big 2. And yes, Pentax has been moribund for such a long time that I'm more than happy to call them (and buy from) Ricoh.

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Re: I don't see the argument here ...
In reply to emem, 8 months ago

emem wrote:

In real life shooting, of a user base of many thousands (of any brand camera), how many want to fill a buffer with RAW shots in a single burst?

Actually, a RAW depth of 6 is very problematic for any sort shooting, even portraiture.  I like to shoot back to back shots and if a 6 shot buffer fills up it means missed shots.  Say you are posing a model and do quick 10 pose shots back to back, annoying to say, "hold up a second, my camera is processing."

I love my Samsung NX300 but never consider using it for a professional shoot because even though it shoots 8 fps, it only has a 5 frame RAW buffer.  This fills up in about half a second at max speed, or even if I am shooting 1 shot every second or so it fills up in less than 10 shots.

The Nikon is at least more responsive shot to shot than my NX300, but still a pathetically small buffer.

Eric

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tcom
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Re: the K3 is perfectly tiimed to hit C and N where they hurt
In reply to paulkienitz, 8 months ago

paulkienitz wrote:

I've been looking at some threads of Nikonians hurting over the lack of a D400, and something somebody said there crystallized exactly why they're in pain, and why the situation is no better in Canonland. It is this: for the last few years, neither of those companies has offered a new high-speed action oriented body outside of the top end pro photojournalist tier! Many users of both brands are desperate for an affordable camera that is fast, regardless of whether it's FF or crop. And this means that the K-3 is not just looking good because it's new and is briefly ahead of competing offerings... it is, for the moment, offering something that the big two refuse to sell you unless you pay three or four times the price! It's looking like a very good time for a C or N user, if they're at all interested in action, to switch to Pentax. (Or to Oly.) I think we'll pick up more converts than we are used to getting on a normal new release.

Of course, those wanting a fast camera may be rather disappointed with SDM, so if (as faintly rumored) they are working on updates of the star lenses with new motors, they'd better be quick about it, before the D7200 and 80D come out with major speed upgrades.

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Well, the sad part is that should a photojournalist take the K3 for events photography and use it with the lens with the equivalent 70-200 range, the DA*50-135/2.8, will notice that the fast action packed camera is useless for what he intends to do since Pentax features almost the slowest AF on this lens in the whole lens offering (with the exception of the DA*55 which is even slower). When asking Pentax, he will receive the same reply as I have gotten, we are not the target audience of Pentax... That's why I added nikon a few years ago. Still today, Pentax seems to make no effort in redesigning a 50-135 with an AF fast enough for concerts or sport events... The fastest camera is useless when the brand can only offer slow focusing lenses.

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paulkienitz
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Re: the K3 is perfectly tiimed to hit C and N where they hurt
In reply to viking79, 8 months ago

paulkienitz wrote:

viking79 wrote:

It definitely shows Pentax is now competitive in an area of the market that peaked about 4 years ago.

"An area of the market that peaked about 4 years ago", my pancreas. People still want fast cameras now for the same reasons they did then. "The market" didn't move away from providing that; two particular companies did, and they left a lot of angry and disappointed customers behind by doing so.

Sorry, I know it is an area that is still popular, my point is that the emphasis is no longer in that spot of the market (4 years ago the 7d and D300 were the cameras).  I really like what Pentax did, and I do think it fills that niche well.  However, I still think they are very late to the market.

I think the K-7 and K-5 were both not quite enough to gain any market traction other than with current Pentax users.  This was at the point where Hoya was trying to kill Pentax I think   K-7 was perfectly fine from my perspective for what I wanted, but if I was looking for a fast action camera it wouldn't have been the K-7.

Eric

This talk of "emphasis" in the market means nothing but the neglect shown by C and N. You keep talking as if those qualities faded away because they were outdated or unwanted, but they are not. Nothing has changed in photography to make performance any less desirable.

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awaldram
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Re: the K3 is perfectly tiimed to hit C and N where they hurt
In reply to tcom, 8 months ago

tcom wrote:

paulkienitz wrote:

I've been looking at some threads of Nikonians hurting over the lack of a D400, and something somebody said there crystallized exactly why they're in pain, and why the situation is no better in Canonland. It is this: for the last few years, neither of those companies has offered a new high-speed action oriented body outside of the top end pro photojournalist tier! Many users of both brands are desperate for an affordable camera that is fast, regardless of whether it's FF or crop. And this means that the K-3 is not just looking good because it's new and is briefly ahead of competing offerings... it is, for the moment, offering something that the big two refuse to sell you unless you pay three or four times the price! It's looking like a very good time for a C or N user, if they're at all interested in action, to switch to Pentax. (Or to Oly.) I think we'll pick up more converts than we are used to getting on a normal new release.

Of course, those wanting a fast camera may be rather disappointed with SDM, so if (as faintly rumored) they are working on updates of the star lenses with new motors, they'd better be quick about it, before the D7200 and 80D come out with major speed upgrades.

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"A good photograph is knowing where to stand." -- Ansel

Well, the sad part is that should a photojournalist take the K3 for events photography and use it with the lens with the equivalent 70-200 range, the DA*50-135/2.8, will notice that the fast action packed camera is useless for what he intends to do since Pentax features almost the slowest AF on this lens in the whole lens offering (with the exception of the DA*55 which is even slower). When asking Pentax, he will receive the same reply as I have gotten, we are not the target audience of Pentax... That's why I added nikon a few years ago. Still today, Pentax seems to make no effort in redesigning a 50-135 with an AF fast enough for concerts or sport events... The fastest camera is useless when the brand can only offer slow focusing lenses.

Strange speaking to the Pentax rep Saturday and he was telling me the 50-135 is the fastest focusing SDM lens.

Personally I'd give the edge to the da*300 but the 50-135 is not out the running at least my copy.

I often wonder given the 50-135 reputation if there's a lot of 'tight' 50-135's out there not focusing properly .

Maybe the reason Pentax has no intention of re-designing the lens is they feel it's competitive as it is ?

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