M-mount wide angle lenses THAT WORK on Sony A7 and A7R

Started Nov 1, 2013 | Discussions
Hacky3D New Member • Posts: 8
M-mount wide angle lenses THAT WORK on Sony A7 and A7R
2

The last weeks we saw quite a lot of articles and discussions complaining about unsatisfying results with Leica (and Zeiss, Voigtlander etc.) M-mount lenses on the A7 and A7R (color shift, edge smearing etc.).

From my point of view many of these judged already quite vague and global although we should take a more differentiated look to the lens construction. In my opinion, lenses with a more telecentric / retrofocal design should do a good job also on Sony A7 / A7R. In this discussion I would like to shed the light to lenses that deliver good results.

This example shows the result of a Leica wide angle Tri Elmar 16-18-21mm f/4.0 ASPH ("WATE") on the A7R:

WATE @ 16mm, f/8 on Sony A7R

...and here the view is zoom to 100% (actual pixels) into the upper left edge:

100% zoom (actual pixels) of upper left edge.

You find more examples and details in this article:

http://3d-kraft.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=148&catid=40&Itemid=2

I am quite sure, there are more lenses that produce good results on the A7 / A7R (e.g. some new samples were show with the CV Ultron 21/1.8 ASPH at Steve Huff's site).

I am curious to see your examples.

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Zenjitsuman Contributing Member • Posts: 793
Re: M-mount wide angle lenses THAT WORK on Sony A7 and A7R

I read this test and looked at the photos for some of the lenses listed taken in high def.

The pictures seem to match the findings

http://www.ronscheffler.com/techtalk/?p=224

On what basis do you not look at those photos and disagree.

I was looking at the photos and trying to decide if using PP software or just cropping the corners to a 1.2x crop would be the better way to go.  One thing is for sure using you RF lenses on these cameras is not a slam dunk success.  An A7 with offset sensors might have done the trick by providing larger sensor sites and angled sensor sights.

I have a Tokina 11-16mm and from 15mm up it cover FF even though its a DX lens.  We have the tiny CV 15mm but it may only be good using PP or cropping.

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Keit ll Veteran Member • Posts: 4,473
Re: M-mount wide angle lenses THAT WORK on Sony A7 and A7R

Anyone considering the recommended Leica lens should maybe look at the price ?

http://www.ebay.com/ctg/Leica-Tri-Elmar-M-Aspherical-16-21-mm-F-4-0-Aspherical-MF-Lens-/101705445

Tuloom Veteran Member • Posts: 3,145
Re: M-mount wide angle lenses THAT WORK on Sony A7 and A7R
1

Keit ll wrote:

Anyone considering the recommended Leica lens should maybe look at the price ?

http://www.ebay.com/ctg/Leica-Tri-Elmar-M-Aspherical-16-21-mm-F-4-0-Aspherical-MF-Lens-/101705445

Anyone considering the Leica already knows.

Keit ll Veteran Member • Posts: 4,473
Re: M-mount wide angle lenses THAT WORK on Sony A7 and A7R

Tuloom wrote:

Keit ll wrote:

Anyone considering the recommended Leica lens should maybe look at the price ?

http://www.ebay.com/ctg/Leica-Tri-Elmar-M-Aspherical-16-21-mm-F-4-0-Aspherical-MF-Lens-/101705445

Anyone considering the Leica already knows.

Yes but if they already knew why would they consider it in the first place ?

Zenjitsuman Contributing Member • Posts: 793
Re: M-mount wide angle lenses THAT WORK on Sony A7 and A7R

GAS and lots of money to spend.

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Lightshow
Lightshow Veteran Member • Posts: 6,966
Re: M-mount wide angle lenses THAT WORK on Sony A7 and A7R

Keit ll wrote:

Tuloom wrote:

Keit ll wrote:

Anyone considering the recommended Leica lens should maybe look at the price ?

http://www.ebay.com/ctg/Leica-Tri-Elmar-M-Aspherical-16-21-mm-F-4-0-Aspherical-MF-Lens-/101705445

Anyone considering the Leica already knows.

Yes but if they already knew why would they consider it in the first place ?

Do you know of a smaller WA zoom that cover FF?

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Erik Pronske Contributing Member • Posts: 701
Re: M-mount wide angle lenses THAT WORK on Sony A7 and A7R

I use the Voigtländer 12mm on the NEX 7 and I am getting great images with a couple fixes.  I use a Novaflex adapter.  There is a tremendous magenta cast that is an easy fix with Cornerfix and Capture One Pro.  I use Capture One Pro and the color cast correction is just a few clicks as part of the RAW processing workflow. There is also a nice slider in C1 Pro that increases sharpness in the corners, so my overall experience with this lens is nice. The lens has no distortion or other issues, so after correcting the color cast the image quality is extremely good.

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djp58 Regular Member • Posts: 351
Re: M-mount wide angle lenses THAT WORK on Sony A7 and A7R

Keit ll wrote:

Tuloom wrote:

Keit ll wrote:

Anyone considering the recommended Leica lens should maybe look at the price ?

http://www.ebay.com/ctg/Leica-Tri-Elmar-M-Aspherical-16-21-mm-F-4-0-Aspherical-MF-Lens-/101705445

Anyone considering the Leica already knows.

Yes but if they already knew why would they consider it in the first place ?

Agree - I thought briefly that I might be interested in adding this lens to cover several of my WA desires (interested in 18 & 21 mm.  Then I looked at price.  I have a severe case of GAS, but not bade nought to pay that amount (plus the wife would probably divorce me if she found out...). ;-/

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sroute Senior Member • Posts: 2,497
Re: M-mount wide angle lenses THAT WORK on Sony A7 and A7R
1

There will undoubtedly be a good wide - ultrawide angle native lens solution(s) from Sony/Zeiss in the next year that won't cost a marriage.

Carbon111
Carbon111 Contributing Member • Posts: 555
Re: M-mount wide angle lenses THAT WORK on Sony A7 and A7R

Based on its design, I still have hopes for the Leica 21mm Super-Elmar f/3.4 ASPH on the A7r, it's the only UW I currently own...everything else is 35mm and up...I'll know in a few weeks.

If it's not so great, there's always the Samyang 14mm and 24mm...

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Zenjitsuman Contributing Member • Posts: 793
Re: M-mount wide angle lenses THAT WORK on Sony A7 and A7R

This thread got hijacked talking about how expensive Leica lenses are. Zeiss lenses are also expensive, but Voigtlander lenses not so much.

The thread was supposed to be about how these lenses work on the new Sony A7/A7r cameras.

Many people must have Leica lenses from buying them years ago. So far this is the best source of

Photos I have seen with different lenses on the new cameras

The pictures seem to match the findings

http://www.ronscheffler.com/techtalk/?p=224

I was looking at the photos and trying to decide if using PP software or just cropping the corners to a 1.2x crop would be the better way to go. One thing is for sure using you RF lenses on these cameras is not a slam dunk success. An A7 with offset sensors might have done the trick by providing larger sensor sites and angled sensor sights.

I have a Tokina 11-16mm and from 15mm up it cover FF even though its a DX lens. We have the tiny CV 15mm but it may only be good using PP or cropping.

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blue_skies
blue_skies Forum Pro • Posts: 11,792
Re: M-mount wide angle lenses THAT WORK on Sony A7 and A7R

Zenjitsuman wrote:

This thread got hijacked talking about how expensive Leica lenses are. Zeiss lenses are also expensive, but Voigtlander lenses not so much.

The thread was supposed to be about how these lenses work on the new Sony A7/A7r cameras.

Many people must have Leica lenses from buying them years ago. (...) One thing is for sure using you RF lenses on these cameras is not a slam dunk success. (...) An A7 with offset sensors might have done the trick by providing larger sensor sites and angled sensor sights.

I think that an 18mm A7 sensor would work well, without the need for tricks, solving both corner smearing and vignetting/color shift issues.

Leica resorted to lens recognition (registration) and in-camera FW to reduce effects of corner smearing and vignetting in both their 18Mp M9 (CCD) and 24MP M240 (CMOS) camera bodies.

The layer topping on the A7 and A7r seems to be quite thin (Leica went down to 0.5mm), and identical in height for both sensors, probably to allow use of same lenses/FW/etc. The A7r has a straight "no AA" filter, and the A7 has a (mild) blur "AA" filter. Both also have a color filter (needed).

The vignetting is not that big of an issue, as you can use plugins in LR, or use CornerFix on the raw, but the corner smearing is something that is difficult to remedy, and, supposedly, something that the Leica cameras do in camera.

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Cheers,
Henry

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Carbon111
Carbon111 Contributing Member • Posts: 555
Re: M-mount wide angle lenses THAT WORK on Sony A7 and A7R

Zenjitsuman wrote:

So far this is the best source of

Photos I have seen with different lenses on the new cameras

The pictures seem to match the findings

http://www.ronscheffler.com/techtalk/?p=224

Unfortunately Ron's photos only show A7 performance not A7r. The A7 exhibits unacceptable corner smearing with many of these lenses.

The A7r is a completely different story. It has extreme magenta color cast with some of these but no smearing based on the few samples out there. I found it heartening that, as the original poster shows, the WATE has no color cast to speak of on the A7r.

The 21mm Summilux might have issues (as it does on Ron's A7 shots) but the Super-Elmar may not have these issues as it has a rather different design. I'll post my findings when the A7r arrives...fingers crossed.

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Carbon111
Carbon111 Contributing Member • Posts: 555
Re: M-mount wide angle lenses THAT WORK on Sony A7 and A7R

The vignetting is not that big of an issue, as you can use plugins in LR, or use CornerFix on the raw, but the corner smearing is something that is difficult to remedy, and, supposedly, something that the Leica cameras do in camera.

The Leica cameras only adjust for vignetting and color cast. There is no smearing. Even the CV15 gives me sharp, unsmeared corners on my M9...it's only the color cast that causes problems. I can still use the CV lenses as black and white lenses because of this...

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uhoh07 Senior Member • Posts: 1,580
Re: M-mount wide angle lenses THAT WORK on Sony A7 and A7R

Wake us when you have real samples.

So far the best bets RF WA on A7r:

zm18

cv 21/1.8

leica 24/2.8

leica 28/2.8 v3

cv 35/1.2

Based on reports from Brian Smith and Steve Huff, who actually have cards in their cameras.

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Carbon111
Carbon111 Contributing Member • Posts: 555
Re: M-mount wide angle lenses THAT WORK on Sony A7 and A7R
1

uhoh07 wrote:

Wake us when you have real samples.

So far the best bets RF WA on A7r:

zm18

cv 21/1.8

leica 24/2.8

leica 28/2.8 v3

cv 35/1.2

Based on reports from Brian Smith and Steve Huff, who actually have cards in their cameras.

LOL! Will do.

According to Steve Huff, those worked well on the A7, not so much on the A7r...as a matter of fact, he explicitly said the A7r was only good for "35mm and up" based on the RF lenses he tested. That's why I found the OP's WATE post so heartening.

And FWIW, Brian Smith said on his blog he did a lot of color edge correction when he used the 18mm Zeiss. Corners didn't look smeared so that's a plus.

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Best Regards, James
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uhoh07 Senior Member • Posts: 1,580
Re: M-mount wide angle lenses THAT WORK on Sony A7 and A7R

Carbon111 wrote:

uhoh07 wrote:

Wake us when you have real samples.

So far the best bets RF WA on A7r:

zm18

cv 21/1.8

leica 24/2.8

leica 28/2.8 v3

cv 35/1.2

Based on reports from Brian Smith and Steve Huff, who actually have cards in their cameras.

LOL! Will do.

According to Steve Huff, those worked well on the A7, not so much on the A7r...as a matter of fact, he explicitly said the A7r was only good for "35mm and up" based on the RF lenses he tested. That's why I found the OP's WATE post so heartening.

And FWIW, Brian Smith said on his blog he did a lot of color edge correction when he used the 18mm Zeiss. Corners didn't look smeared so that's a plus.

Edge color correction is moot. Smearing is the serious issue. Yes, huff said "35 and up", yet contradicted himself, by noting the excellence of the 21/1.8 on both cameras--check his samples.

Smith claims the 18 and 24 are "razor sharp to the edges" on A7r. He ought to know what that means, since he has won a Pulitzer.

The camera has color correction lens profiles on board, which again according to Smith, writes to Raw--may not be seen by all editors.

We won't know if anything is true until the bodies are in the hands of real RF users. But it looks to me as if a careful choice will work on the A7r from 18 up.

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Carbon111
Carbon111 Contributing Member • Posts: 555
Re: M-mount wide angle lenses THAT WORK on Sony A7 and A7R

uhoh07 wrote:

Edge color correction is moot. Smearing is the serious issue. Yes, huff said "35 and up", yet contradicted himself, by noting the excellence of the 21/1.8 on both cameras--check his samples.

We are in accord.

Smith claims the 18 and 24 are "razor sharp to the edges" on A7r. He ought to know what that means, since he has won a Pulitzer.

Indeed, I do know who Smith is.
In the comments on the A7r blog post he did outline his post-processing for the 18mm Zeiss image...he only had to correct vignetting and edge color.

The camera has color correction lens profiles on board, which again according to Smith, writes to Raw--may not be seen by all editors.

This is the first I've heard of this - unless you mean the in-camera lens correction app that will be available from Sony soon. This will allow distortion, vignetting and color correction for all non-native lenses. If you're talking about profiles for native lenses, well that's to be expected.

We won't know if anything is true until the bodies are in the hands of real RF users. But it looks to me as if a careful choice will work on the A7r from 18 up.

My feelings as well. Hopefully the 21mm Super-Elmar Asph is in the "sweet spot". This will be a very long couple of weeks.

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uhoh07 Senior Member • Posts: 1,580
Re: M-mount wide angle lenses THAT WORK on Sony A7 and A7R

Carbon111 wrote:

uhoh07 wrote:

Edge color correction is moot. Smearing is the serious issue. Yes, huff said "35 and up", yet contradicted himself, by noting the excellence of the 21/1.8 on both cameras--check his samples.

We are in accord.

Smith claims the 18 and 24 are "razor sharp to the edges" on A7r. He ought to know what that means, since he has won a Pulitzer.

Indeed, I do know who Smith is.
In the comments on the A7r blog post he did outline his post-processing for the 18mm Zeiss image...he only had to correct vignetting and edge color.

The camera has color correction lens profiles on board, which again according to Smith, writes to Raw--may not be seen by all editors.

This is the first I've heard of this - unless you mean the in-camera lens correction app that will be available from Sony soon. This will allow distortion, vignetting and color correction for all non-native lenses. If you're talking about profiles for native lenses, well that's to be expected.

We won't know if anything is true until the bodies are in the hands of real RF users. But it looks to me as if a careful choice will work on the A7r from 18 up.

My feelings as well. Hopefully the 21mm Super-Elmar Asph is in the "sweet spot". This will be a very long couple of weeks.

Hi James,

I wrote in un clear way regarding profiles, sorry.

It's the one, you likely are familiar with, which allows the user to create lens profiles, and set various parameters, distortion and color shift, only the latter being written to raw.

I'm hopin it will also write the lens given lens name to exif.

Thanks for your excellent posts,

Charlie

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