Mirrorless DSLR..sorry but they are pretty crap

Started 6 months ago | Discussions
Michael Perham
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Re: Mirrorless DSLR..sorry but they are pretty crap
In reply to Mahmoud Mousef, 5 months ago

Mahmoud Mousef wrote:

I don't think any current EVFs are quite like an optical viewfinder, but they too offer their own advantages an optical one can't. Like zooming in focus area with manual focusing. What about mirrorless models with silent shutters (when silence is needed). Or when fast bursts are needed without clankety-clank at rapid speed, in models that can do this.

Your right of course ...but you can have the best of both worlds. Just get a Fuji X100s.

Of course your DSLR can do that in live view I suppose ...just never used live view with my DSLR. However, plan to experiment with that once my new Pentax K3 arrives.

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Mellowmark
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Re: Mirrorless DSLR..sorry but they are pretty crap
In reply to Promit, 5 months ago

Promit wrote:

"Most" are better served by learning how to get out of auto, to compose shots, etc. That aside, I think the best compromise for your average consumer is going to be an EVF/LCD LV type camera with PDAF on board. A few years ago that didn't even exist. Now we're seeing a few options. The OVF fans tend to forget that the advantages aren't relevant to how most people shoot most photos, and that the OVFs really only come into their own from the prosumer DSLRs. Most DSLR buyers are buying pentamirror DSLRs, and a modern EVF is going to be vastly better and more useful tool.

I get the sense that a lot of people around here grew up shooting film, and have a lot of access to high end gear. You're using a D800E, for god's sake. Your viewfinder and camera bear zero relevance to what a typical consumer needs or benefits from, and new DSLR buyers nowadays have no problem with LCD and EVF shooting. They're mostly stepping up from smartphones these days, after all. Coming from a 4.5" screen to compose pictures, a pentamirror OVF is uncomfortable unpleasant garbage which serves mostly to irritate.

That said, good luck trying to find high quality EVFs at the price of a D3100.

I like evfs and ovfs - having used both I can see the advantages and disadvantages of each. I can also understand someone not liking an evf - it is different.  But when I say evfs I mean a decent current one and when I say ovfs I mean a large, 100% view pentaprism one - I agree that most entry level dslr buyers would probably be better off with /prefer a decent modern evf rather than the ovfs offered on entry level Canon and Nikon cameras.

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qianp2k
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Re: Mirrorless DSLR..sorry but they are pretty crap
In reply to Tommot1965, 5 months ago

I tried EM1 in the pdn PhotoPlus Expo in the past Saturday. Yes it shoots fast in initial burst but only God knows how many of them hitting target sharp if you're tracking a BIF, a fast flying jet or a racing car. Agreed I don't like EVF (I prefer EVF in Sony A7/A7r better) although it does give some useful info. When I attached 500L, 100-400L, 70-200L/2.8 IS II, ML smaller/lighter body not only becomes irrelevant but harmful in balance, handling and gripping. Having said that I do see a small FF ML such as A7/A7r is valuable to complement my FF DSLR - a) daily walk-around camera (I replaced S95 with EOS-M + 22/2.0 pancake that I really enjoy these days); b) A backup camera in trip so must still can use my EF or your FX lenses in case. I hope Canon and Nikon follow Sony's step to release their respective FF ML cameras with a native adapter to use EF or FX lenses.

My pdn PhotoPlus Expo snapshots are here

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RichRMA
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EVF's require some period of use before rendering a verdict
In reply to Tommot1965, 5 months ago

Initially, any OVF user might take a dislike to EVF. But after a while, especially if you do much low-light, long-lens or other work, the EVF begins to show its superiority. Even a lowly old Panasonic G1 will take sharper shots with a long lens than a large DSLR with less than really fast shutter speeds simply because of lack of mirror slap. I found that out using a Nikon D300 and the Panasonic.  Additionally, if you require really precise manual focusing, the magnification features of EVF's cannot be matched by an OVF for critical focusing.  Light "gain" afforded by an EVF is also another important feature, which allows better composing in dark situations (sometimes, despite grain) than an OVF. The principal benefit of an OVF is a minor and increasingly diminishing aesthetic one.  Even then, an OVF in a DSLR is really an image on a frosted screen, and not a true direct-view optical viewfinder.

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Mahmoud Mousef
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low light
In reply to RichRMA, 5 months ago

Very low light is actually far better without an EVF, in my opinion. There is a threshold beyond which all an EVF can display is black...while the optical gets the tiny nuances and allows you to see. I suppose it depends on what your definition of low-light is. In the darkness on the street with very little light, optical is so superior to me. Same in a dark room with hardly any light. EVFs don't even get any detail for them to gain-up. It's all a sea of black.

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Kali108
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Re: Mirrorless DSLR..sorry but they are pretty crap
In reply to Tommot1965, 5 months ago

Tommot1965 wrote:

:-)...Ill start the thread with a smile..but after trying a Oly EM1 today EVFs will have to be a quantum leap better before I go that way..VF blackout was terrible as was the colours that the VF displayed..Lag is also a problem..sorry and all but I fear Ill have to lug the D800 a while longer or look at the new Df or whatever its going to be called ....

if your serious about you hobby/profession then the Mirrorless is just a toy

im not prepared to lose that connection with the subject and the EVF does just that.. other than that it was not a bad camera

"if your serious about you hobby/profession then the Mirrorless is just a toy"...really?  Congrats, you moved to the #1 spot on my "Top 10 Most Moronic Statements EVER on dpreview".

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new boyz
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Re: low light
In reply to Mahmoud Mousef, 5 months ago

Mahmoud Mousef wrote:

Very low light is actually far better without an EVF, in my opinion. There is a threshold beyond which all an EVF can display is black...while the optical gets the tiny nuances and allows you to see. I suppose it depends on what your definition of low-light is. In the darkness on the street with very little light, optical is so superior to me. Same in a dark room with hardly any light. EVFs don't even get any detail for them to gain-up. It's all a sea of black.

Actually, no. EVF is better for low light (IMO, of course). True, there's a threshold, but OVF reaches that threshold first. OVF is somewhere 1 stop darker(because of the ground glass, unless you're using rangefinder OVF) while with EVF you can have 1 stop or more digital gain. Since you said very low light, in theory - I don't know if it's already exist, an EVF can display infrared image for framing, while with OVF your framing is limited to visible spectrum.

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shaolin95
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Re: Mirrorless DSLR..sorry but they are pretty crap
In reply to Tommot1965, 5 months ago

Tommot1965 wrote:

:-)...Ill start the thread with a smile..but after trying a Oly EM1 today EVFs will have to be a quantum leap better before I go that way..VF blackout was terrible as was the colours that the VF displayed..Lag is also a problem..sorry and all but I fear Ill have to lug the D800 a while longer or look at the new Df or whatever its going to be called ....

if your serious about you hobby/profession then the Mirrorless is just a toy

im not prepared to lose that connection with the subject and the EVF does just that.. other than that it was not a bad camera

The only crap I see here is your biased and totally clueless opinion.

Do you need to feel better about the gear you own by convinving yourself that the other options are crap? Maybe you can try growing up and acting like an adult..I think that is a healthier alternative....

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pluton
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Re: Mirrorless DSLR..sorry but they are pretty crap
In reply to Tommot1965, 5 months ago

Tommot1965 wrote:

:-)...Ill start the thread with a smile..but after trying a Oly EM1 today EVFs will have to be a quantum leap better before I go that way..VF blackout was terrible as was the colours that the VF displayed..Lag is also a problem..sorry and all but I fear Ill have to lug the D800 a while longer or look at the new Df or whatever its going to be called ....

if your serious about you hobby/profession then the Mirrorless is just a toy

im not prepared to lose that connection with the subject and the EVF does just that.. other than that it was not a bad camera

Agree.  But that Fuji X sensor has so much more highlight recoverability, at least in my use(Fuji XE1)--- I hope they put that type sensor in a real, pro-quality body someday.

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-KB-

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pluton
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Re: Mirrorless DSLR..sorry but they are pretty crap
In reply to pluton, 5 months ago

EVF is the best in the dark, because it's the only thing that works in the dark.

Other than 'in the dark', the current EVFs are awful.

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-KB-

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nzmacro
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Yeah I know what Dave means
In reply to LTZ470, 5 months ago

LTZ470 wrote:

Cetonid wrote:

Just for fun

And even more fun… ;-)…real dog poo on top...

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Mr Ichiro Kitao, I support the call to upgrade the FZ50.
I will not only buy one but two no questions asked...

Never mind

Ahhh yes, that's better

In fact shooting mirrorless makes me embarrassed

I really just want to throw up mate

Awww

Man mirrorless makes me sick !!

Did someone say Nikon FF

All the best LTZ, see you are around C

Danny.

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Martin.au
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Re: Yeah I know what Dave means
In reply to nzmacro, 5 months ago

Can't we all be friends?

More of this (One happy family)

Less of this.

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nzmacro
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Beautiful !!
In reply to Martin.au, 5 months ago

Martin.au wrote:

Can't we all be friends?

More of this (One happy family)

Less of this.

Well of course we are all friends mate Beauitful Lorries going on on there, love the colours.

I use Nikon and Canon lenses on the NEX anyway, I would have trouble being biased

All the best and fine shots with good action. Love it.

Danny.

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Allochka Emiliana
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Re: Mirrorless DSLR..sorry but they are pretty crap
In reply to rgolub, 5 months ago

rgolub wrote:

Where did you get that idea?

White balance? On a non corrected screen? Unless Nikon changes how it displays the image on the OVF (ie, not using a JPEG), you are at the mercy of trying to discern this by staring through a little display. You're better off (but still likely not correct) by looking at the back LCD (assuming the camera has one).

Dynamic Range? On a tiny little non corrected screen?

I rather doubt it. Even if you could somehow show a gamut like ProRGB on the EVF, the resolution of the display would be too small make decisions about it.

Nikon could show a histogram based off the RAW data, not the JPEG data. That would allow you to determine if the camera was utilize all of the sensor's range. But they could do with without an EVF.

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I guess you haven't tried to use an EVF especially on the Sony cameras…He was right to say you can see the  outcome of the photos when changing the settings without pressing the shutter.

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qianp2k
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Re: low light
In reply to new boyz, 5 months ago

new boyz wrote:

Mahmoud Mousef wrote:

Very low light is actually far better without an EVF, in my opinion. There is a threshold beyond which all an EVF can display is black...while the optical gets the tiny nuances and allows you to see. I suppose it depends on what your definition of low-light is. In the darkness on the street with very little light, optical is so superior to me. Same in a dark room with hardly any light. EVFs don't even get any detail for them to gain-up. It's all a sea of black.

Actually, no. EVF is better for low light (IMO, of course). True, there's a threshold, but OVF reaches that threshold first. OVF is somewhere 1 stop darker(because of the ground glass, unless you're using rangefinder OVF) while with EVF you can have 1 stop or more digital gain. Since you said very low light, in theory - I don't know if it's already exist, an EVF can display infrared image for framing, while with OVF your framing is limited to visible spectrum.

EVF is very noisy in low light, and CDAF is also not good in very dim light. On DSLRs you can use LV in dim light that at least Canon DSLRs support Liveview Exposure Simulation (or LvExSim). Human eyes thru OVF can see more DR than EVF. I hope Canon can continue improve that Dual-Pixel sensor-based PDAF (which is in infant stage) and Nikon or other companies also will design their own technologies. Eventually they will combine PDAF and CDAF to sensor-based. Maybe one day there is no need mirrorbox even in professional work but personally I still want OVF stays or at least having an option for both OVF and EVF.

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Dave Luttmann
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For some things, EVF is better.....
In reply to Tommot1965, 5 months ago

Well, with an EVF, when I open a lens to f1.4, f1.2 or f1.1 on my Fuji X-Pro1, I can see what the real DOF is, where the OVF on the D700 or D800 doesn't change below f2.5 or so.  This makes the EVF very useful for some portraiture for example.

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qianp2k
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Re: For some things, EVF is better.....
In reply to Dave Luttmann, 5 months ago

Dave Luttmann wrote:

Well, with an EVF, when I open a lens to f1.4, f1.2 or f1.1 on my Fuji X-Pro1, I can see what the real DOF is, where the OVF on the D700 or D800 doesn't change below f2.5 or so. This makes the EVF very useful for some portraiture for example.

Can you point us the native Fuji F/1.1 and F/1.2 lenses that still can AF/AE on Fuji cameras? Bear in mind that a F/1.4 lens on Fuji's 1.5x crop is only equivalent to FF F/2.1 in DOF. FF F/1.2 lenses such as 50L/1.2 and 85L/1.2 are equivalent to APS-C 33mm/F0.8 and 57mm/F0.8 lens respectively but these F/1.2 lenses are still native to FF bodies and still can AF/AE that something your Fuji simply unmatched and don't exist. You don't have to view true F/1.2 DOF thru OVF but you can pinpoint AF point with 50L or 85L for example on 1DX or 5DIII and still AF accurately as we have seen many real samples. The photos from these FF fast primes are stunning when view on computer or on print, not something your Fuji or 2.0x crop mFT can match.

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Dave Luttmann
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Re: For some things, EVF is better.....
In reply to qianp2k, 5 months ago

You missed the point.  I can see the actual DOF in the viewfinder.  OVFs on Canon and Nikin dont show the DOF any shallower than about f2.5

This has nothing to do with native lenses or not.  The EVF shows the actual DOF.....it isnt as limited in this regard as an OVF.

The next time you wish to argue with me, understand the actual topic at hand.

qianp2k wrote:

Dave Luttmann wrote:

Well, with an EVF, when I open a lens to f1.4, f1.2 or f1.1 on my Fuji X-Pro1, I can see what the real DOF is, where the OVF on the D700 or D800 doesn't change below f2.5 or so. This makes the EVF very useful for some portraiture for example.

Can you point us the native Fuji F/1.1 and F/1.2 lenses that still can AF/AE on Fuji cameras? Bear in mind that a F/1.4 lens on Fuji's 1.5x crop is only equivalent to FF F/2.1 in DOF. FF F/1.2 lenses such as 50L/1.2 and 85L/1.2 are equivalent to APS-C 33mm/F0.8 and 57mm/F0.8 lens respectively but these F/1.2 lenses are still native to FF bodies and still can AF/AE that something your Fuji simply unmatched. You don't have to view true F/1.2 DOF but you can pin-point AF points from 50L or 85L for example with 1DX and 5DIII and still AF accurately as we have seen many real samples. The photos from these FF fast primes are stunning when view on computer or on print.

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qianp2k
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Re: For some things, EVF is better.....
In reply to Dave Luttmann, 5 months ago

Dave Luttmann wrote:

You missed the point. I can see the actual DOF in the viewfinder. OVFs on Canon and Nikin dont show the DOF any shallower than about f2.5

I don't see what's problem? As long as pinpoint AF point on specific subject such as an eye, I know I'd get the result I wanted.

This has nothing to do with native lenses or not. The EVF shows the actual DOF.....it isnt as limited in this regard as an OVF.

As I said even your Fuji F/1.4 is only FF eq F/2.1 DOF

The next time you wish to argue with me, understand the actual topic at hand.

When you said F/1.1 or F/1.2 lenses on Fuji x-pro1, I have a curiosity. So I searched and unfound. It's your imagination (such as your long-claimed 'D800' as nobody ever saw a single D800 photo from you despite you claimed you "own" long long ago and suddenly from nowhere "sold" recently) or it's your actual hands-on experience

qianp2k wrote:

Dave Luttmann wrote:

Well, with an EVF, when I open a lens to f1.4, f1.2 or f1.1 on my Fuji X-Pro1, I can see what the real DOF is, where the OVF on the D700 or D800 doesn't change below f2.5 or so. This makes the EVF very useful for some portraiture for example.

Can you point us the native Fuji F/1.1 and F/1.2 lenses that still can AF/AE on Fuji cameras? Bear in mind that a F/1.4 lens on Fuji's 1.5x crop is only equivalent to FF F/2.1 in DOF. FF F/1.2 lenses such as 50L/1.2 and 85L/1.2 are equivalent to APS-C 33mm/F0.8 and 57mm/F0.8 lens respectively but these F/1.2 lenses are still native to FF bodies and still can AF/AE that something your Fuji simply unmatched. You don't have to view true F/1.2 DOF but you can pin-point AF points from 50L or 85L for example with 1DX and 5DIII and still AF accurately as we have seen many real samples. The photos from these FF fast primes are stunning when view on computer or on print.

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Dave Luttmann
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Re: For some things, EVF is better.....
In reply to qianp2k, 5 months ago

As I said...this has nothing to do with AF.  I can see the actual DOF in the viewfinder...you can't.  If you are shooting at f1.2 on your Canon, the DOF you see in the OVF is limited to about f2.5.

Your searching native lenses isnt the topic.  I can use Fuji, Voigtlander and Leica glass.  I can use the voigtlander 35 f1.2 and the 50 f1.1.  Or the Leica f1.  Or I can use the metabones adaptor on these and get an even shallower dof.

The issue I am discussing is what one sees in the evf.  And with an evf, one sees the actual dof...something you cant do with your ovf.

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