Mirrorless DSLR..sorry but they are pretty crap

Started Oct 30, 2013 | Discussions
Promit
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Re: Mirrorless DSLR..sorry but they are pretty crap
In reply to Lance B, Oct 31, 2013

Lance B wrote:

Tommot1965 wrote:

:-)...Ill start the thread with a smile..but after trying a Oly EM1 today EVFs will have to be a quantum leap better before I go that way..VF blackout was terrible as was the colours that the VF displayed..Lag is also a problem..sorry and all but I fear Ill have to lug the D800 a while longer or look at the new Df or whatever its going to be called ....

if your serious about you hobby/profession then the Mirrorless is just a toy

im not prepared to lose that connection with the subject and the EVF does just that.. other than that it was not a bad camera

I must say I am not a fan of mirroless as it stands today. I have tried them and I find them a technical gimick at the moment. May be it will change, but they have a looong way to go, IMO.

What alarms me is that people who sell these mirrorless cameras are being urged to do so by sales staff in camera stores who have pressure put on them by those camera manufacturers and advise many unwary new to DSLR customers that they are the latest and greatest and "better than Optical VF's" simply because they are the "latest and supposedly greatest". These new to DSLR customers are probably unawares of the advantage that OVF's have over current technology mirrorless cameras and may be being duped into buying them when the technology isn't really there yet. Yes, they probably may suit the majority of their photography, but when itcomes to push and shove and to some critical action shots or whatever, they may fall down on the job.

One of the possibly unfortunate things about mirrorless cameras is that they are represented first and foremost by Olympus, and Olympus cameras tend to be very quirky out of the box. A lot of people don't seem to understand or appreciate that the Olympus cams work extremely well once you've set them up properly and gotten a feel for the layout and options. Similarly other manufacturers (*cough* NEX) have taken mirrorless as an opportunity to explore ... creative interface designs. So you end up with a lot of criticism of these cameras that are the result of poor or controversial design decisions rather than technical issues.

As for your comment, Lance -- I think it's just factually incorrect. Most stores have absolutely minimal stocks of mirrorless cameras and the sales people pretty consistently steer people away from them in favor of your standard Rebels and D5200s. The simple fact of the matter is that the people shooting mirrorless usually have to go out of their way to find and purchase these cameras.

Personally I refuse to buy any OVF cameras. They aren't suitable for the type of work I do. Think about that.

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Cetonid
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Pretty Crap.
In reply to dave gaines, Oct 31, 2013

Just for fun

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James Pilcher
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malevolence and Mark Twain
In reply to Tommot1965, Oct 31, 2013

Tommot1965 wrote:

:-)...Ill start the thread with a smile..but after trying a Oly EM1 today EVFs will have to be a quantum leap better before I go that way..VF blackout was terrible as was the colours that the VF displayed..Lag is also a problem..sorry and all but I fear Ill have to lug the D800 a while longer or look at the new Df or whatever its going to be called ....

if your serious about you hobby/profession then the Mirrorless is just a toy

im not prepared to lose that connection with the subject and the EVF does just that.. other than that it was not a bad camera

Your comments toward blackout, color, lag, and "toys" are so completely false that they must be intentionally malevolent. Mark Twain once said, "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt." That seems so relevant here when I read your remarks.

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MPA1
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Re: Mirrorless DSLR..sorry but they are pretty crap
In reply to Tommot1965, Oct 31, 2013

Tommot1965 wrote:

:-)...Ill start the thread with a smile..but after trying a Oly EM1 today EVFs will have to be a quantum leap better before I go that way..VF blackout was terrible as was the colours that the VF displayed..Lag is also a problem..sorry and all but I fear Ill have to lug the D800 a while longer or look at the new Df or whatever its going to be called ....

if your serious about you hobby/profession then the Mirrorless is just a toy

im not prepared to lose that connection with the subject and the EVF does just that.. other than that it was not a bad camera

I shall be sure to pass on your comments to the two Magnum photographers I know of who shoot EVF M43 cameras....

Of course, they would hardly be serious about their profession.

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inasir1971
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Re: Mirrorless DSLR..sorry but they are pretty crap
In reply to Tommot1965, Oct 31, 2013

Tommot1965 wrote:

:-)...Ill start the thread with a smile..but after trying a Oly EM1 today EVFs will have to be a quantum leap better before I go that way..VF blackout was terrible as was the colours that the VF displayed..Lag is also a problem..sorry and all but I fear Ill have to lug the D800 a while longer or look at the new Df or whatever its going to be called ....

if your serious about you hobby/profession then the Mirrorless is just a toy

im not prepared to lose that connection with the subject and the EVF does just that.. other than that it was not a bad camera

Woah, talk like that can get you stoned to death in some parts of the world! I was going to warn you about the M43 Defense League but I see they're already here

They're rather radicalized and militant of late - better lock your doors!

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Dennis
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Re: Something I will never understand on gear forums
In reply to pcm81, Oct 31, 2013

pcm81 wrote:

It is interesting to see how the opinions of EVFs are clearly split based on intended use of the camera:

I see no such clear split.

1. Amateurs and hobbyists love EVF, because it allows smaller form factor of the camera gear and simplifies the shooting, by letting them see exactly what they are getting.

And other amateurs and hobbyists prefer an OVF for various reasons.  Myself included, when I bought a Nikon D7000 after years of using Minolta-then-Sony gear and was ready to upgrade and didn't care for the EVF on the SLTs.

2. Pros find mirror-less "advantages" useless and mirror-less capabilities lacking. Who cares what white balance is set in the camera; as long as exposure is correct color checker passport will take care of the colors from raw conversion. But if you can't focus fast enough; that is a problem.

And other pros like an EVF, or failing that, LV on the LCD, for studio work, checking critical focus.

- Dennis

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Midwest
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To the contrary...
In reply to Tommot1965, Oct 31, 2013

I think the mirrorless DSLR is fantastic, right up there with the electric diesel engine and hot buttered popsicles.

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LTZ470
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Re: Mirrorless DSLR..sorry but they are pretty crap
In reply to Tommot1965, Oct 31, 2013

Tommot1965 wrote:

:-)...Ill start the thread with a smile..but after trying a Oly EM1 today EVFs will have to be a quantum leap better before I go that way..VF blackout was terrible as was the colours that the VF displayed..Lag is also a problem..sorry and all but I fear Ill have to lug the D800 a while longer or look at the new Df or whatever its going to be called ....

this usually happens to folks that are unaccustomed to EVF's and after a few months use it is easily adapted…I have plenty BIF and Blue Angel shots that will rival FF…with an EVF...

if your serious about you hobby/profession then the Mirrorless is just a toy

In your eyes…a D800 is a tank in my eyes that I would never own…I'll end with a smile

im not prepared to lose that connection with the subject and the EVF does just that.. other than that it was not a bad camera

Correct not a bad camera at all if you hike several miles or bike 10-20 miles of trails or float rapids in rafts or need a lightweight package…and birding with 100-300 is great due to compactness and weight….

Still use my RX1 for indoors and family dinners, which is VERY comparable to D800 easily...

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LTZ470
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Re: Pretty Crap.
In reply to Cetonid, Oct 31, 2013

Cetonid wrote:

Just for fun

And even more fun… ;-)…real dog poo on top...

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dgnelson
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Lag Test
In reply to Tommot1965, Oct 31, 2013

Tommot1965 wrote:

Lag is also a problem.

Make sure the viewfinder is set at its fastest frame rate.  Look through the viewfinder at someone talking, see if what you hear is in sync with their mouth moving.

Dan

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Lance B
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Re: Mirrorless DSLR..sorry but they are pretty crap
In reply to Promit, Oct 31, 2013

Promit wrote:

Lance B wrote:

Tommot1965 wrote:

:-)...Ill start the thread with a smile..but after trying a Oly EM1 today EVFs will have to be a quantum leap better before I go that way..VF blackout was terrible as was the colours that the VF displayed..Lag is also a problem..sorry and all but I fear Ill have to lug the D800 a while longer or look at the new Df or whatever its going to be called ....

if your serious about you hobby/profession then the Mirrorless is just a toy

im not prepared to lose that connection with the subject and the EVF does just that.. other than that it was not a bad camera

I must say I am not a fan of mirroless as it stands today. I have tried them and I find them a technical gimick at the moment. May be it will change, but they have a looong way to go, IMO.

What alarms me is that people who sell these mirrorless cameras are being urged to do so by sales staff in camera stores who have pressure put on them by those camera manufacturers and advise many unwary new to DSLR customers that they are the latest and greatest and "better than Optical VF's" simply because they are the "latest and supposedly greatest". These new to DSLR customers are probably unawares of the advantage that OVF's have over current technology mirrorless cameras and may be being duped into buying them when the technology isn't really there yet. Yes, they probably may suit the majority of their photography, but when itcomes to push and shove and to some critical action shots or whatever, they may fall down on the job.

One of the possibly unfortunate things about mirrorless cameras is that they are represented first and foremost by Olympus, and Olympus cameras tend to be very quirky out of the box. A lot of people don't seem to understand or appreciate that the Olympus cams work extremely well once you've set them up properly and gotten a feel for the layout and options. Similarly other manufacturers (*cough* NEX) have taken mirrorless as an opportunity to explore ... creative interface designs. So you end up with a lot of criticism of these cameras that are the result of poor or controversial design decisions rather than technical issues.

As for your comment, Lance -- I think it's just factually incorrect. Most stores have absolutely minimal stocks of mirrorless cameras and the sales people pretty consistently steer people away from them in favor of your standard Rebels and D5200s.

Well, I tend to disagree. Maybe in the town where you come from, but not what I have seen and been told.

The simple fact of the matter is that the people shooting mirrorless usually have to go out of their way to find and purchase these cameras.

Personally I refuse to buy any OVF cameras. They aren't suitable for the type of work I do. Think about that.

That's fine for you but I still believe that most are better served by OVF at this juncture. However, if the technology improves enough then maybe they will be a formative alternative.

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ageha
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Re: Mirrorless DSLR..sorry but they are pretty crap
In reply to Tommot1965, Oct 31, 2013

Tommot1965 wrote:

:-)...Ill start the thread with a smile..but after trying a Oly EM1 today EVFs will have to be a quantum leap better before I go that way..VF blackout was terrible as was the colours that the VF displayed..Lag is also a problem..sorry and all but I fear Ill have to lug the D800 a while longer or look at the new Df or whatever its going to be called ....

if your serious about you hobby/profession then the Mirrorless is just a toy

im not prepared to lose that connection with the subject and the EVF does just that.. other than that it was not a bad camera

What's a "mirrorless DSLR" supposed to be?

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Promit
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Re: Mirrorless DSLR..sorry but they are pretty crap
In reply to Lance B, Oct 31, 2013

Lance B wrote:

As for your comment, Lance -- I think it's just factually incorrect. Most stores have absolutely minimal stocks of mirrorless cameras and the sales people pretty consistently steer people away from them in favor of your standard Rebels and D5200s.

Well, I tend to disagree. Maybe in the town where you come from, but not what I have seen and been told.

I would bet that you're in the minority there but we're both just sharing anecdotes.

The simple fact of the matter is that the people shooting mirrorless usually have to go out of their way to find and purchase these cameras.

Personally I refuse to buy any OVF cameras. They aren't suitable for the type of work I do. Think about that.

That's fine for you but I still believe that most are better served by OVF at this juncture. However, if the technology improves enough then maybe they will be a formative alternative.

"Most" are better served by learning how to get out of auto, to compose shots, etc. That aside, I think the best compromise for your average consumer is going to be an EVF/LCD LV type camera with PDAF on board. A few years ago that didn't even exist. Now we're seeing a few options. The OVF fans tend to forget that the advantages aren't relevant to how most people shoot most photos, and that the OVFs really only come into their own from the prosumer DSLRs. Most DSLR buyers are buying pentamirror DSLRs, and a modern EVF is going to be vastly better and more useful tool.

I get the sense that a lot of people around here grew up shooting film, and have a lot of access to high end gear. You're using a D800E, for god's sake. Your viewfinder and camera bear zero relevance to what a typical consumer needs or benefits from, and new DSLR buyers nowadays have no problem with LCD and EVF shooting. They're mostly stepping up from smartphones these days, after all. Coming from a 4.5" screen to compose pictures, a pentamirror OVF is uncomfortable unpleasant garbage which serves mostly to irritate.

That said, good luck trying to find high quality EVFs at the price of a D3100.

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Tommot1965
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Re: Mirrorless DSLR..sorry but they are pretty crap
In reply to Martin.au, Oct 31, 2013

Err..so I went and gave the EM1 another try today..this time a oly shooter walked me through it..everything that you guys said here for the reasons behind the VF lag were correct...after setting up the camera for fast VF performance the camera worked really nice ...I must admit I was totally wrong and this little camera is very useful now I've had a chance to try it a 2nd time

many apologies for being a prat

Martin.au wrote:

Tommot1965 wrote:

Righto Martin I look at that too...sounds feasible...

cheers

Martin.au wrote:

Tommot, the VF blackout you're seeing is probably the 0.5s playback that's set by default. (like an autochimp). You need to turn that off too.

Errr, damn. Now I need to figure out where the various settings you need to set are.

Ok

Peaking has to be disabled, otherwise you don't get the high frame rate.

cog menu:

A -> MF assist -> Peaking off (has to be off under buttons too, but I think that's default).

B-> Button Function -> Peaking should be off in all these

D -> Live View Boost -> Off

D -> Frame Rate -> High (If it's greyed out it means that something (probably peaking) is conflicting with it.

J -> EVF Adjust (If you want to adjust colour or brightness of the EVF)

J -> EVF Adjust -> EVF Autoluminance -> Off (Maybe play with that option a bit. Not necessary to change it)

Spanner menu -> Rec View -> Off

Enjoy.

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Martin.au
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Re: Mirrorless DSLR..sorry but they are pretty crap
In reply to Tommot1965, Oct 31, 2013

Tommot1965 wrote:

Err..so I went and gave the EM1 another try today..this time a oly shooter walked me through it..everything that you guys said here for the reasons behind the VF lag were correct...after setting up the camera for fast VF performance the camera worked really nice ...I must admit I was totally wrong and this little camera is very useful now I've had a chance to try it a 2nd time

many apologies for being a prat

Martin.au wrote:

Tommot1965 wrote:

Righto Martin I look at that too...sounds feasible...

cheers

Martin.au wrote:

Tommot, the VF blackout you're seeing is probably the 0.5s playback that's set by default. (like an autochimp). You need to turn that off too.

Errr, damn. Now I need to figure out where the various settings you need to set are.

Ok

Peaking has to be disabled, otherwise you don't get the high frame rate.

cog menu:

A -> MF assist -> Peaking off (has to be off under buttons too, but I think that's default).

B-> Button Function -> Peaking should be off in all these

D -> Live View Boost -> Off

D -> Frame Rate -> High (If it's greyed out it means that something (probably peaking) is conflicting with it.

J -> EVF Adjust (If you want to adjust colour or brightness of the EVF)

J -> EVF Adjust -> EVF Autoluminance -> Off (Maybe play with that option a bit. Not necessary to change it)

Spanner menu -> Rec View -> Off

Enjoy.

Good to hear. Pretty intense menu system, isn't it?

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Tommot1965
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Re: Mirrorless DSLR..sorry but they are pretty crap
In reply to Martin.au, Oct 31, 2013

very much so..but as you said Martin it's very customizable ..I really quite enjoyed using it..now to see if the image quality is what I want..I may buy it and for now run it with the D800...I liked the specs of the Oly 12-40 lens..looks good..they are available in a kit I believe, but stock is low where I live ...

I like the connectivity via WIFI and it really felt great in my hand

martin.au wrote:

:

Good to hear. Pretty intense menu system, isn't it?

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Martin.au
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Re: Mirrorless DSLR..sorry but they are pretty crap
In reply to Tommot1965, Oct 31, 2013

Tommot1965 wrote:

very much so..but as you said Martin it's very customizable ..I really quite enjoyed using it..now to see if the image quality is what I want..I may buy it and for now run it with the D800...I liked the specs of the Oly 12-40 lens..looks good..they are available in a kit I believe, but stock is low where I live ...

I like the connectivity via WIFI and it really felt great in my hand

martin.au wrote:

:

Good to hear. Pretty intense menu system, isn't it?

Your D800 should be much better in IQ. However, I found when I went to the OM-D, that I now take it everywhere. I've got mine in a small shoulder bag (Lowepro Urban sling 150), with a 60mm macro (120mm in 35mm terms), the small FL300r Flash, 75mm f1.8, 75-300mm, 12-50mm (soon to be 12-40) and occasionally, a fisheye.

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thomo
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Re: Mirrorless DSLR..sorry but they are pretty crap
In reply to Tommot1965, Oct 31, 2013

That's what you get for looking at toy cameras in the Mickey Mouse (M4/3) formats.

You need to look at the real cameras like the Fuji X100/S, X-Pro1 and XE-2 with DX size sensors and quality lenses. They make a great compliment to your Nikon DSLRs (a tool for each trade).

Cheers, thomo

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mpgxsvcd
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Re: Mirrorless DSLR..sorry but they are pretty crap
In reply to Tommot1965, Oct 31, 2013

Tommot1965 wrote:

:-)...Ill start the thread with a smile..but after trying a Oly EM1 today EVFs will have to be a quantum leap better before I go that way..VF blackout was terrible as was the colours that the VF displayed..Lag is also a problem..sorry and all but I fear Ill have to lug the D800 a while longer or look at the new Df or whatever its going to be called ....

if your serious about you hobby/profession then the Mirrorless is just a toy

im not prepared to lose that connection with the subject and the EVF does just that.. other than that it was not a bad camera

Have you ever thought about using the LCD to frame the subject instead of the EVF?

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LTZ470
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Re: Mirrorless DSLR..sorry but they are pretty good...
In reply to thomo, Oct 31, 2013

thomo wrote:

That's what you get for looking at toy cameras in the Mickey Mouse (M4/3) formats.

You need to look at the real cameras like the Fuji X100/S, X-Pro1 and XE-2 with DX size sensors and quality lenses. They make a great compliment to your Nikon DSLRs (a tool for each trade).

Cheers, thomo

Exactly, don't play around with toys they could be contagious…lol…  …especially when they almost fit in your pocket and have excellent lens line up...

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