Part II: Nikon wasting time & resources on a BS retro camera

Started Oct 29, 2013 | Discussions
SteveCooper
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Re: My thoughts...
In reply to DezM, Oct 29, 2013

Dez,

Did you read where DP Review tested a Nikon mount version of the Sigma lens and it's AF is MUCH better as tested using a D7100?

This confirms that the lens and camera work as a system, and Nikon's AF is superior.

So, if I had a Canon, I'd wait, but since I have Nikon, I'm going to get one of these  

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JimPearce
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Yup...
In reply to SteveCooper, Oct 29, 2013

"Our initial impressions with the Nikon mount version are even more positive, with much greater focus accuracy than we've seen with any of the copies of the Canon-mount version we've used. We've shot a samples gallery, giving a taste of what this 27-53mm equivalent lens can do on the Nikon D7100." DPReview

Too bad, as I really don't need this lens! But I played with the Canon version on an EOS 70D and was blown away by the look & feel.

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Mikhail Bogdanov
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Re: Part II: Nikon wasting time & resources on a BS retro camera
In reply to DezM, Oct 29, 2013

Dez, just curious...

Your "evaluation" ("opinion" on Nikon resources, etc., any BS here) is quite valuable ...Comparisons of that BS retro canera with hypothetical D400 are based on what? Do we know anything about "D400" or that retro cam?

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DezM
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Re: Part II: Nikon wasting time & resources on a BS retro camera
In reply to Mikhail Bogdanov, Oct 29, 2013

Mikhail Bogdanov wrote:

Dez, just curious...

Your "evaluation" ("opinion" on Nikon resources, etc., any BS here) is quite valuable ...Comparisons of that BS retro canera with hypothetical D400 are based on what? Do we know anything about "D400" or that retro cam?

If you read my original thread, BS was referring to Nikon releasing the D3000, D3100, D3200, D5000, D5100, D5200, D5300 and now possibly a retro "DF" SLR body and no real update to the D300.

What I do know is the above and that I've been patiently waiting for an update to my D300 for a few years now and the latest rumor has pushed my wits.

DPR writes about it (sort of):

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2013/10/25/nikon-video-hints-at-long-desired-digital-fm?utm_campaign=internal-link&utm_source=news-list&utm_medium=text&ref=title_0_14

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new boyz
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Re: Part II: Nikon wasting time & resources on a BS retro camera
In reply to DezM, Oct 29, 2013

DezM wrote:

Nikon has given up on the semi-pro DX user & not release a "D400"

That's because Canon hasn't released 7D Mark 2 yet. My bet is they have already developed it, but saved for a proper announcement time(like answering competitor's new product).

Same story with DF, long developed.. suddenly announced days after Sony A7 series announcement.

But that is just speculation, of course.

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Mikhail Bogdanov
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Re: Part II: Nikon wasting time & resources on a BS retro camera
In reply to DezM, Oct 30, 2013

DezM wrote:

Mikhail Bogdanov wrote:

Dez, just curious...

Your "evaluation" ("opinion" on Nikon resources, etc., any BS here) is quite valuable ...Comparisons of that BS retro canera with hypothetical D400 are based on what? Do we know anything about "D400" or that retro cam?

If you read my original thread, BS was referring to Nikon releasing the D3000, D3100, D3200, D5000, D5100, D5200, D5300 and now possibly a retro "DF" SLR body and no real update to the D300.

Dez,

That's more than fair evaluation of Nikon's approach to answer DX users (fans?) question - where is that f...g D400  (sorry for the obscenity). Nevertheless, if that retro/hybrid body turns out to be true, it could be quite interesting.

Cheers

What I do know is the above and that I've been patiently waiting for an update to my D300 for a few years now and the latest rumor has pushed my wits.

DPR writes about it (sort of):

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2013/10/25/nikon-video-hints-at-long-desired-digital-fm?utm_campaign=internal-link&utm_source=news-list&utm_medium=text&ref=title_0_14

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Rockwallaby
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Re: Waiting to see???
In reply to n057, Oct 30, 2013

A successful business or product is built on listening to the voice of the customer, innovation and being first to market.

Watching what your opposition is offering and then following them is not a company that will excite the market.

Apple is a successful leading brand because they just get on with their business to get products to market.

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rhlpetrus
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In reply to DezM, Oct 30, 2013

I think the D610 is an awesome camera. I haven't tried it but tried the D600, the same. The only reason I haven't yet moved to FF was that the D600 had the much commented debris issue (many samples produced a lot of debris that looked like peeling from shutter). And the D800 is a bit on the expensive side and hard to justify for me.

Re questions on use of D610, I think you could pay a visit and ask that question in the FF forum, people will be able to help.

Re Iq, it's hard to beat, and the base ISO DR and color gradation, as well as the ability to recover detail/color in shadows is state of the art. If you get one, I'm looking forward to see your NY images, as always.

Best wishes, Renato.

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rhlpetrus
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Re: Your post illustrates the d400/et all problem very well.
In reply to Kerry Pierce, Oct 30, 2013

Kerry Pierce wrote:

msu79gt82 wrote:

DezM wrote:

*** Question to D610 / D600 owners: Does the 3 frame bracket limitation discourage you to use it or is the sensor that good that bracketing isn't required anymore? And what don't you like about that camera?

My first DSLR was Nikon's D300 (prior to that I used an OM-2n) bought in Nov '07; having no legacy lenses I jumped headfirst into Nikon's waters with no regrets (at the time). A year ago I got the D600 for the improved low light performance. I am not a pro so many features like the 3 bracket limitation are not important to me. Feature-wise I miss the dedicated ISO button the most. Since I was never impressed with Nikon's dedicated DX lens choices I invested mostly in FX glass anyway (I have the DX 35 and the 16-85), thus going from DX to FX was not a hardship lens-wise.

I have NOT been affected by the shutter oil spots, however I am not at all happy with the way Nikon left D600 owners hung-out-to-dry. Lens wise the D600 had me wanting the 16-35 and the new 80-400, but due to Nikon's customer service attitude re the D600/610 as well as the fact that current FX body + FX lens kits tend to be large and heavy (e.g. D600 + 80-400) I have chosen to hold off spending the $3450 and will consider a lightweight kit along the lines of the Olympus E-M1 (definitely eye catching to a 20 year OM-2n user).

I have no regrets buying the D600 (ignoring the D610 debacle) and recently used the D300 on an extending hiking excursion. However I will be very cautious investing in any more Nikon gear until I get a better sense of their future direction.

This is really the crux of the issue for me, and always has been. It's my loss of faith in Nikon's ability to do the "right thing" and be there for me in the future.

Too many people simply don't want to consider the fact that as a DSLR becomes less and less relevant in the future marketplace, the ONLY thing that Nikon really has going for it are the so-called "niche" markets, ie the markets where nothing else can really compete with what a DSLR will do. The d300 does things that only 1 other maker can compete with. I don't understand why Nikon doesn't pamper those users....

The service issues and other problems with the 600/d800 AF are just more things piling on to my loss of faith. An excellent d400 would go a long way to bolstering my faith and make me spend a lot more money on "new" Nikon gear.

Kerry

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Kerry, this is an issue with all makers. Oly users complain about the end of the OVF line, Sony the lack of NEX lenses, Pentax ... . Canon and Nikon, if you think about that, are more conservative and play along their old patterns. NIkon users may be guaranteed to have bodies that will work with very old lenses, a plus in the long run. OTOH, they have made two mistakes in my view: stopping the fast compact body lines (D300 and D700). And they were the "owners" of the segment. Why did they do it? Hard to tell. Will they ever come back with fast, well-built compact bodies again? Maybe, But the market is changing so fast that I bet they are wondering exactly where to go. The impending release of a retro-styled body should not be read in any way as some major shift, it's just Nikon paying homage to their tradition of making a body that will work with most lenses they have made.

Just like the D300 users complain about the lack of a successor, others complain that there is no APS-C ML. Or about some other missing species. I agree that the lack of a D400 is probably the biggest mistake Nikon have made since I began following them. Still trying to understand.

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rhlpetrus
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Re: Part II: Nikon wasting time & resources on a BS retro camera
In reply to ragspix, Oct 30, 2013

ragspix wrote:

Hey Dez... I too am waiting for a 300S replacement. For me the D610 is not it

But I shoot mostly with a D700; I can't use the DX mode because it's too small in the viewfinder which doesn't give you 100% view anyway. With the discretionary grip , the fps is fine

That said, if the new cam is FX (with DX) and has a evf that can blow up to the DX size, I can live with that.

Shooting sports - I want the in cam crop and I crop that too. From 16mp to 12mp DX is OK

If it has a silent electronic shutter that's great. You can shoot ballet without bothering people

Mag body would be good to hold long fast glass.

I'm looking forward to more info.

Rags

16MP in FF is more like 7MP in DX. And the new camera is looking more like a slow model, at most 5.5 fps is the rumor (unless there's a grip coming too). It's not the D700 with 16MP, not at all.

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meland
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Re: Part II: Nikon wasting time & resources on a BS retro camera
In reply to DezM, Oct 30, 2013

DezM wrote:

Hynek, long time

Yes, good times in that we have options. Just want Nikon to get their act together and give me what I want.
--
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"..........give me what I want."  Hmm, but even if Nikon did get their act together as you put it, perhaps that's still not a viable product for anyone other than you?

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DezM
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Re: Part II: Nikon wasting time & resources on a BS retro camera
In reply to meland, Oct 30, 2013

meland wrote:

DezM wrote:

Hynek, long time

Yes, good times in that we have options. Just want Nikon to get their act together and give me what I want.
--
Dez

"..........give me what I want." Hmm, but even if Nikon did get their act together as you put it, perhaps that's still not a viable product for anyone other than you?

Give me a break. There are many in this forum and outside Dpreview that want what I want. It's been said various times. You obviously haven't been paying attention.

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DezM
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Re: Your post illustrates the d400/et all problem very well.
In reply to rhlpetrus, Oct 30, 2013

rhlpetrus wrote:

Kerry Pierce wrote:

msu79gt82 wrote:

DezM wrote:

*** Question to D610 / D600 owners: Does the 3 frame bracket limitation discourage you to use it or is the sensor that good that bracketing isn't required anymore? And what don't you like about that camera?

My first DSLR was Nikon's D300 (prior to that I used an OM-2n) bought in Nov '07; having no legacy lenses I jumped headfirst into Nikon's waters with no regrets (at the time). A year ago I got the D600 for the improved low light performance. I am not a pro so many features like the 3 bracket limitation are not important to me. Feature-wise I miss the dedicated ISO button the most. Since I was never impressed with Nikon's dedicated DX lens choices I invested mostly in FX glass anyway (I have the DX 35 and the 16-85), thus going from DX to FX was not a hardship lens-wise.

I have NOT been affected by the shutter oil spots, however I am not at all happy with the way Nikon left D600 owners hung-out-to-dry. Lens wise the D600 had me wanting the 16-35 and the new 80-400, but due to Nikon's customer service attitude re the D600/610 as well as the fact that current FX body + FX lens kits tend to be large and heavy (e.g. D600 + 80-400) I have chosen to hold off spending the $3450 and will consider a lightweight kit along the lines of the Olympus E-M1 (definitely eye catching to a 20 year OM-2n user).

I have no regrets buying the D600 (ignoring the D610 debacle) and recently used the D300 on an extending hiking excursion. However I will be very cautious investing in any more Nikon gear until I get a better sense of their future direction.

This is really the crux of the issue for me, and always has been. It's my loss of faith in Nikon's ability to do the "right thing" and be there for me in the future.

Too many people simply don't want to consider the fact that as a DSLR becomes less and less relevant in the future marketplace, the ONLY thing that Nikon really has going for it are the so-called "niche" markets, ie the markets where nothing else can really compete with what a DSLR will do. The d300 does things that only 1 other maker can compete with. I don't understand why Nikon doesn't pamper those users....

The service issues and other problems with the 600/d800 AF are just more things piling on to my loss of faith. An excellent d400 would go a long way to bolstering my faith and make me spend a lot more money on "new" Nikon gear.

Kerry

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http://www.pbase.com/kerrypierce/root

Kerry, this is an issue with all makers. Oly users complain about the end of the OVF line, Sony the lack of NEX lenses, Pentax ... . Canon and Nikon, if you think about that, are more conservative and play along their old patterns. NIkon users may be guaranteed to have bodies that will work with very old lenses, a plus in the long run. OTOH, they have made two mistakes in my view: stopping the fast compact body lines (D300 and D700). And they were the "owners" of the segment. Why did they do it? Hard to tell. Will they ever come back with fast, well-built compact bodies again? Maybe, But the market is changing so fast that I bet they are wondering exactly where to go. The impending release of a retro-styled body should not be read in any way as some major shift, it's just Nikon paying homage to their tradition of making a body that will work with most lenses they have made.

Just like the D300 users complain about the lack of a successor, others complain that there is no APS-C ML. Or about some other missing species. I agree that the lack of a D400 is probably the biggest mistake Nikon have made since I began following them. Still trying to understand.

Still trying to understand too. And than you have those that bow down to Nikon and praise every move they make.

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meland
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Re: Part II: Nikon wasting time & resources on a BS retro camera
In reply to DezM, Oct 30, 2013

DezM wrote:

meland wrote:

DezM wrote:

Hynek, long time

Yes, good times in that we have options. Just want Nikon to get their act together and give me what I want.
--
Dez

"..........give me what I want." Hmm, but even if Nikon did get their act together as you put it, perhaps that's still not a viable product for anyone other than you?

Give me a break. There are many in this forum and outside Dpreview that want what I want. It's been said various times. You obviously haven't been paying attention.

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Really?

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Stacey_K
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Seems clear to me.
In reply to DezM, Oct 30, 2013

DezM wrote:

If a D610 works for you, I wonder why the D7100 does not, which is way closer to a theoretical D400 than the D610. (AF, DX sensor)

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hobby aviation photographer

I don't know if a D610 works for me. I'm saying that after trying it, I could get the hang of it and IF Nikon is getting away from DX at least I'm going in the same direction as well. Just wish Nikon would announce their plans so that I know what to do with my $.

I'm not clueless about what I want, I'm clueless as to Nikon's direction.
--
Dez

It seems pretty clear to me. They have only released consumer type slow zooms for DX. All the high end fast glass both zoom and prime have been for FX. That right there is better than a road map for me pointing which direction they are headed.

Also makes the release of a D400 even less likely. They would have to engineer and design several new lenses to make it worth owning for a pro. The FX glass is already being made.

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Stacey

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Stacey_K
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Re: Your post illustrates the d400/et all problem very well.
In reply to Kerry Pierce, Oct 30, 2013

Kerry Pierce wrote:

 An excellent d400 would go a long way to bolstering my faith and make me spend a lot more money on "new" Nikon gear.

The problem with this statement is what new DX glass does Nikon have to sell a pro user? The only really pro level lens in the DX lineup is the 17-55 and it's how old now? If they released a D400, they'd also have to design and release a bunch of glass to make this a pro system.

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DezM
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Re: D610
In reply to rhlpetrus, Oct 30, 2013

I think the D610 is an awesome camera. I haven't tried it but tried the D600, the same. The only reason I haven't yet moved to FF was that the D600 had the much commented debris issue (many samples produced a lot of debris that looked like peeling from shutter). And the D800 is a bit on the expensive side and hard to justify for me.

Re questions on use of D610, I think you could pay a visit and ask that question in the FF forum, people will be able to help.

Re Iq, it's hard to beat, and the base ISO DR and color gradation, as well as the ability to recover detail/color in shadows is state of the art. If you get one, I'm looking forward to see your NY images, as always.

Best wishes, Renato.

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Renato.
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Exactly my thoughts Renato. Quality control on both FF models was questionable. Hopefully, Nikon has learned it's lesson and is taking it's time with the D300 successor to make sure it gets it right with minimal issues.
--
Dez

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DezM
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Re: Seems clear to me.
In reply to Stacey_K, Oct 30, 2013

DezM wrote:

If a D610 works for you, I wonder why the D7100 does not, which is way closer to a theoretical D400 than the D610. (AF, DX sensor)

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hobby aviation photographer

I don't know if a D610 works for me. I'm saying that after trying it, I could get the hang of it and IF Nikon is getting away from DX at least I'm going in the same direction as well. Just wish Nikon would announce their plans so that I know what to do with my $.

I'm not clueless about what I want, I'm clueless as to Nikon's direction.
--
Dez

It seems pretty clear to me. They have only released consumer type slow zooms for DX. All the high end fast glass both zoom and prime have been for FX. That right there is better than a road map for me pointing which direction they are headed.

Also makes the release of a D400 even less likely. They would have to engineer and design several new lenses to make it worth owning for a pro. The FX glass is already being made.

-- hide signature --

Stacey

Glad it's clear to you. There's a large $ gap between the D7100 & D610. We know a Pro DX fits nicely there.

I have Nikon FF glass and it works perfectly on my D300.
--
Dez

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Shaun_Nyc
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Re: D610
In reply to DezM, Oct 30, 2013

DezM wrote:

I think the D610 is an awesome camera. I haven't tried it but tried the D600, the same. The only reason I haven't yet moved to FF was that the D600 had the much commented debris issue (many samples produced a lot of debris that looked like peeling from shutter). And the D800 is a bit on the expensive side and hard to justify for me.

Re questions on use of D610, I think you could pay a visit and ask that question in the FF forum, people will be able to help.

Re Iq, it's hard to beat, and the base ISO DR and color gradation, as well as the ability to recover detail/color in shadows is state of the art. If you get one, I'm looking forward to see your NY images, as always.

Best wishes, Renato.

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Exactly my thoughts Renato. Quality control on both FF models was questionable. Hopefully, Nikon has learned it's lesson and is taking it's time with the D300 successor to make sure it gets it right with minimal issues.
--
Dez

Only thing I can think of is Nikon doesn’t have (yet) the desired spec aps-c sensor to offer for a D400. It has to outperform the 24mp in the 7100. And who is going fab it , toshiba sony ? It doesn’t take this long to design the body.

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n057
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Re: Part II: Nikon wasting time & resources on a BS retro camera
In reply to DezM, Oct 30, 2013

DezM wrote:

Give me a break. There are many in this forum and outside Dpreview that want what I want. It's been said various times. You obviously haven't been paying attention.

There is an interesting piece from Thom Hogan questioning the "need" for FX. Read on .

JC
Some cameras, some lenses, some computers

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