Part II: Nikon wasting time & resources on a BS retro camera

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DezM
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Part II: Nikon wasting time & resources on a BS retro camera
9 months ago

Ok. Judging by the old thread that maxed out, it seems like many of you welcome this new retro "DF" by Nikon and many others want no part of it.

I posted that thread because I have been patiently waiting for Nikon to release a true update to my D300, which I still use and like......BUT with constant releases of Dxxxx cameras and various DX lenses, I thought this rumored release of a "DF" was a step in the wrong direction and a waste of time & resources. Although, if this camera turns out to be the D300 update (just a guess) and it has new tech and has all of the bells & whistles, I wouldn't care what they call it. It is a rumor, but Nikon has released several "Pure Photography" videos of an unknown SLR body so we know something is coming soon.

As for the FF vs. DX talk in that thread & that I should be shooting FF because of my photography style, I have been shooting with a D300 for years. It has worked for me, so that DX body hasn't been hampering my style. I just want to bracket less and have better ISO performance with an increased dynamic range sensor and use both my Nikon DX and FF lenses I currently own without impacting too much of my wallet.

I will say that I tried a D610 for about 45 minutes at Best Buy yesterday. I can like that camera. The size & weight are about the same as the D300. The IQ is outstanding and the controls are a bit different. I can get used to it. So if some of you are correct in that Nikon has given up on the semi-pro DX user & not release a "D400", than the D610 is my alternative choice. I always said it would in my mind but now after trying it, I can shoot with that body.

*** Question to D610 / D600 owners: Does the 3 frame bracket limitation discourage you to use it or is the sensor that good that bracketing isn't required anymore? And what don't you like about that camera?

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seahawk
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Re: Part II: Nikon wasting time & resources on a BS retro camera
In reply to DezM, 9 months ago

If a D610 works for you, I wonder why the D7100 does not, which is way closer to a theoretical D400 than the D610. (AF, DX sensor)

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DezM
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Re: Part II: Nikon wasting time & resources on a BS retro camera
In reply to seahawk, 9 months ago

If a D610 works for you, I wonder why the D7100 does not, which is way closer to a theoretical D400 than the D610. (AF, DX sensor)

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I don't know if a D610 works for me. I'm saying that after trying it, I could get the hang of it and IF Nikon is getting away from DX at least I'm going in the same direction as well. Just wish Nikon would announce their plans so that I know what to do with my $.

I'm not clueless about what I want, I'm clueless as to Nikon's direction.
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HSway
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Re: Part II: Nikon wasting time & resources on a BS retro camera
In reply to DezM, 9 months ago

Hey Dez, I see you dilemma. and know that you are looking at the current development long time. As someone who knows the value of the raw-to-output file processing you are likely to be impressed, if not very impressed, by the quality of d610 files and by what it can take.

I am sure you know about d300 – d7000 (nex6) difference here. I would say that it is a big difference for those who appreciate/make use of the improvements.

Imagine, say, twice as a big difference thinking d7000 and d600 difference on the top of that difference between d300 and the nex6 (d7000). Much less noise at base iso, much cleaner files or parts that are under the adjustment stress, significant jump in resolution. You can use average or slightly above average glass and get better results than with a high quality lens on dx. That relates to overall quality of the larger format file and very similar about the DR. Quality of the file is a big factor also in practical use of DR capability which is great on its own with cameras like d600/d800 (I personally don’t need bracketing and still have no real need for grads for my 14-24, I go for another long trip without them. I would sure find the exposure merging much more practical with d90/d300.) It’s also the benefit of 24mp that helps in this respect. These are very high quality pixels giving great resolution – which again is part of the file quality in relation to processing I am mentioning. 16mp in fx package is a thing of beauty as well. There is some, perhaps surprisingly perceivable, difference between 12 and 16mp on both the dx and fx format to me.

A lot has changed in past years. Nikon is supporting strongly fx line and delivered lenses like 16-35G, 28/1.8G, 85/1.8G, 50/1.8G, (70-200/4 VR and 80-400 VR) that are great value and performance (compared in absolute terms to dx also). Also the 24-85 VR. My 24-120/4 VR (arguably a bit worse value on fx) gave me what I’d rate as some two class difference on d600 compared to 16-85 VR on d7000 as far the resolution and the file-quality goes on base iso.

As for the dx being dead, well every week something is dead in the forums. It’s a popular folklore and of course we enjoy fun here as well. Gradual changes on the market and in approach of manufactures are natural and very much expected. DX is and will remain an extremely important format although is likely to be undergoing some restructuring and cameras an appropriate reconfiguring. Nikon, for example, should have a strong dx mirrorless system here by now. I suspect even US sales would look quite different regarding the mirrorless.

The new DF - we have quite limited info about it. It doesn’t border me whether it is a camera positioned above or below d600 but rather what it is. It can be something very different and very good in more respects including a long term success on the market as a product (and including the US.)

Whatever it is, what bothers me is the shutter that proudly, as you expect, clacks in those teasers. Whether it has Q mode or other means of keeping mirror slap/shutter vibrations down in its smaller body. I will take old lenses rendering but no blur from the slap.

Good luck, we live in good times, you love photography, plenty of great options and fantastic technology most for everyone so I reckon you will be happy whatever kit you pick up eventually.

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TacticDesigns
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Re: Part II: Nikon wasting time & resources on a BS retro camera
In reply to DezM, 9 months ago

DezM wrote:

Ok. Judging by the old thread that maxed out, it seems like many of you welcome this new retro "DF" by Nikon and many others want no part of it.

LOL.

What about those that want both?

Want a fast frame rate lower priced camera & want a fun camera?

To answer the two questions you put forward . . . as for if this is a waste of resources . . . its hard to say until we get to see the camera . . . but I'm keenly following it, because it sounds an awful lot like a camera that I've been wanting for a while . . .we'll see.

And for the D610 . . . it only does 5.5fps or something like that . . .

My wife and I volunteer taking pictures at my daughters gymnastics club. No flash allowed. Poor lighting. Shooting settings are pretty much locked in at iso3200, f2.8, 1/250sec. And my D5100 does 4fps, which for the most part is fine . . . but ideas have been tossed around about doing another composite shot . . . so it got my mind thinking of all sorts of composite / series shots I could attempt to do if I had faster frame rate than I currently have.

That's partly why I'm looking at whats available right now.

So for me . . . I want the fast FPS for shooting for my daughter's gymnastics club . . .

but when I want to go take pictures for fun . . . I don't necessarily take the same camera with me . . .

?

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seahawk
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Re: Part II: Nikon wasting time & resources on a BS retro camera
In reply to DezM, 9 months ago

But there is always a new camera in the rumour mill. And I guess you do not have to sell the D300 to get a new camera, so maybe you should do as I did and ask yourself which available Nikon camera adds something to your camera bag. Which gives you new options and capabilities.

So for me it went like:

Must have:

- best AF

- not a large body like the D4

should have:

- better high ISO than D300

- at least 6 FPS

- best metering systme Nikon has

could have:

- more resolution

So I ended up with a D800 and I do not regret it. In the end it probably added more to my possibilities than a D400 ever would. And if the D400 comes out, I still can grab it to go along the D800.

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hydrospanner
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Re: Part II: Nikon wasting time & resources on a BS retro camera
In reply to seahawk, 9 months ago

if this camera turns out to be the D300 update (just a guess) and it has new tech and has all of the bells & whistles

I think the two are rather mutually exclusive.  The D300 sets itself apart with loads of bells, whistles, external controls, advanced settings, etc. while, at least from what we've been led to believe thus far, the DF will set itself apart by specifically eschewing all of that.

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ClickBoom
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Re: Part II: Sod's law
In reply to DezM, 9 months ago
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DezM
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Re: Part II: Nikon wasting time & resources on a BS retro camera
In reply to seahawk, 9 months ago

But there is always a new camera in the rumour mill. And I guess you do not have to sell the D300 to get a new camera, so maybe you should do as I did and ask yourself which available Nikon camera adds something to your camera bag. Which gives you new options and capabilities.

So for me it went like:

Must have:

- best AF

- not a large body like the D4

should have:

- better high ISO than D300

- at least 6 FPS

- best metering systme Nikon has

could have:

- more resolution

So I ended up with a D800 and I do not regret it. In the end it probably added more to my possibilities than a D400 ever would. And if the D400 comes out, I still can grab it to go along the D800.

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hobby aviation photographer

The retro camera isn't a rumor (the retro part might be). Something is coming since Nikon has released teaser videos.

As for what available, I have been doing that for the past couple of years. The D800 left AF issue and the D600 oily sensor issues were a turn off. I was observing those reports from a distance. I didn't pull. the trigger, I already own a SLR and am somewhat confident a Pro DX will come. Again, the D610 looked attractive when I tried it.
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DezM
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Re: Part II: Nikon wasting time & resources on a BS retro camera
In reply to HSway, 9 months ago

Hynek, long time

Yes, good times in that we have options. Just want Nikon to get their act together and give me what I want.
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DezM
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Re: Part II: Nikon wasting time & resources on a BS retro camera
In reply to TacticDesigns, 9 months ago

DezM wrote:

Ok. Judging by the old thread that maxed out, it seems like many of you welcome this new retro "DF" by Nikon and many others want no part of it.

LOL.

What about those that want both?

Want a fast frame rate lower priced camera & want a fun camera?

To answer the two questions you put forward . . . as for if this is a waste of resources . . . its hard to say until we get to see the camera . . . but I'm keenly following it, because it sounds an awful lot like a camera that I've been wanting for a while . . .we'll see.

And for the D610 . . . it only does 5.5fps or something like that . . .

My wife and I volunteer taking pictures at my daughters gymnastics club. No flash allowed. Poor lighting. Shooting settings are pretty much locked in at iso3200, f2.8, 1/250sec. And my D5100 does 4fps, which for the most part is fine . . . but ideas have been tossed around about doing another composite shot . . . so it got my mind thinking of all sorts of composite / series shots I could attempt to do if I had faster frame rate than I currently have.

That's partly why I'm looking at whats available right now.

So for me . . . I want the fast FPS for shooting for my daughter's gymnastics club . . .

but when I want to go take pictures for fun . . . I don't necessarily take the same camera with me . . .

?

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Well, you could want both but I do not. I just see a lot of new bodies, both FF and DX, that have been released that haven't swayed me to purchase.

The retro camera just put me over the edge with my patience.

Thanks for you summary about what you dislike
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TacticDesigns
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Re: Part II: Nikon wasting time & resources on a BS retro camera
In reply to DezM, 9 months ago

DezM wrote:

Well, you could want both but I do not. I just see a lot of new bodies, both FF and DX, that have been released that haven't swayed me to purchase.

Well, if there was an FF that did both and was within my budget . . . then I'd go for that camera.

But since there is not . . . I'd still be happy with getting both a DX and FF . . .

The retro camera just put me over the edge with my patience.

I'm the opposite . . . I've been hoping that Pentax would release a simple retro camera since before the Olympus OM-D E-M5 . . . something like my dad's Pentax SV . . . so this Nikon DF is very intriguing to me.

Thanks for you summary about what you dislike

Who said anything about dislike?

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seahawk
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Re: Part II: Nikon wasting time & resources on a BS retro camera
In reply to DezM, 9 months ago

The D800 AF issues are gone, the D610 fixes the oily problem and the DF might turn out to be a great camera for street photography or portraits. As I want a fast action orientated DX camera next, the DF does not interest me at all, but it seems many people like it. So I would not say they wasted their resources, at least they have something new and not just some lukewarm new release like D610 or D5300.

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DezM
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Re: Part II: Nikon wasting time & resources on a BS retro camera
In reply to TacticDesigns, 9 months ago

I'm on a mobile so quoting screws up the replies & hard to follow. I mentioned dislike because I assumed the fps were what you dislike.
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DezM
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Re: Part II: Nikon wasting time & resources on a BS retro camera
In reply to seahawk, 9 months ago

The D800 AF issues are gone, the D610 fixes the oily problem and the DF might turn out to be a great camera for street photography or portraits. As I want a fast action orientated DX camera next, the DF does not interest me at all, but it seems many people like it. So I would not say they wasted their resources, at least they have something new and not just some lukewarm new release like D610 or D5300.

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Wasted resources. Meaning development, test and release of: D3000, D5000, D5100, D5300, DF, etc or any other DX model # I left out.
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TacticDesigns
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Re: Part II: Nikon wasting time & resources on a BS retro camera
In reply to DezM, 9 months ago

DezM wrote:

I'm on a mobile so quoting screws up the replies & hard to follow. I mentioned dislike because I assumed the fps were what you dislike.
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Dez

I just look at that as a spec. A camera either has the specs you're looking for or it doesn't. Doesn't mean I like or dislike . . .  

Actually . . . I put the D610 on my want list as soon as it came out . . .

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msu79gt82
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Food for thought
In reply to DezM, 9 months ago

Michael Reichmann commenting on Andrew Reid's ConsumerDSLRs “dead in 5 years” wrote:

"Are we observing the end-game of the photographic industry as we know it? Maybe, maybe not. But a look at how quickly the music industry transitioned from LPs, to audio cassettes and CDs, and then to downloads, and the video entertainment industry from VHS, to DVD, to online streaming, is a saluatory lesson in how industries can change almost overnight.

Tablets are now a daily part of our lives. They didn't even exist three years ago. Netflicks and streaming video? They only sold DVDs two years ago.

I hate to say it, but the marketplace for high-end cameras is shrinking faster than Greenland glaciers. Remember Hi-Fi and high-end stereo stores? Almost all gone now. Visit a big box electronics store and what do you see – a wall with 50 giant flat screen TVs and nary a stereo system in sight.

DVD players? Blu-Ray players? Back shelf. 3D TVs? Almost being remaindered. Video rental stores? Are there any still left in your town?

The rate of change in consumer electronics is moving faster than anyone could ever have foreseen, and the photographic industry is now the consumer electronics industry.

The classic DSLR is heading toward the singularity. Nikon's imminent announcement of the retro DF camera is a telling sign-post. When companies start appealing to past glories you know that there's a fork in the road coming.

No – DSLRs won't completely die out. You can still buy high-end stereo gear after all – if you search for them. But I agree with Andrew and other industry observers. DSLRs will diminish in market share and likely will become a niche product for wealthy enthusiasts. Mainstream enthusiasts will move to so-called mirrorless system cameras and the mass market will happily take pictures with their smartphones while uploading them in real-time to Facebook.

Sony has seen the writing on the wall better than most. So have Olympus, Fuji and Panasonic. Nikon and Canon have had an ostrich-like mentality and are therefore about to be side-swiped by a market shift of tsunami proportions. Unless their market planners grow the cojones needed to adapt to the changing marketplace, in a few short years there'll be a lot of executives in Japan staring out the window at a train that has swiftly left the station.

Don't misunderstand. The photographic industry will remain vibrant. It just is going to require the photo industry counterparts of General Motors to be aware of the shifting ground beneath their feet before it topples them.

You and I will likely continue to do our photography with some terrific new camera gear in the years ahead. It just may not be from the same companies that we've been buying from in the past."

Many (Michael Reichmann included) seriously doubt that any company (Nikon included) will be able to support/offer a complete line of DSLRs in the future.  One really has to question if Nikon can offer a full line of DX Consumer, DX Pro, FX Consumer, FX Pro, FX retro/niche, etc in the future.  I doubt it.

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Re: Part II: Nikon wasting time Spanner in the works......
In reply to DezM, 9 months ago

Canon Runours now coming strong on a 7dII (again      ) .  Looking like March.

If Canon does, as usual, Nikon D400 wont be far behind....

That'll confuse the issue... sorry.

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msu79gt82
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Re: D600
In reply to DezM, 9 months ago

DezM wrote:

*** Question to D610 / D600 owners: Does the 3 frame bracket limitation discourage you to use it or is the sensor that good that bracketing isn't required anymore? And what don't you like about that camera?

My first DSLR was Nikon's D300 (prior to that I used an OM-2n) bought in Nov '07; having no legacy lenses I jumped headfirst into Nikon's waters with no regrets (at the time). A year ago I got the D600 for the improved low light performance. I am not a pro so many features like the 3 bracket limitation are not important to me. Feature-wise I miss the dedicated ISO button the most. Since I was never impressed with Nikon's dedicated DX lens choices I invested mostly in FX glass anyway (I have the DX 35 and the 16-85), thus going from DX to FX was not a hardship lens-wise.

I have NOT been affected by the shutter oil spots, however I am not at all happy with the way Nikon left D600 owners hung-out-to-dry. Lens wise the D600 had me wanting the 16-35 and the new 80-400, but due to Nikon's customer service attitude re the D600/610 as well as the fact that current FX body + FX lens kits tend to be large and heavy (e.g. D600 + 80-400) I have chosen to hold off spending the $3450 and will consider a lightweight kit along the lines of the Olympus E-M1 (definitely eye catching to a 20 year OM-2n user).

I have no regrets buying the D600 (ignoring the D610 debacle) and recently used the D300 on an extending hiking excursion. However I will be very cautious investing in any more Nikon gear until I get a better sense of their future direction.

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Re: Part II: Nikon wasting time & resources One Caveat..IF
In reply to DezM, 9 months ago

*IF* the retro camera is actually an old style SLR with an upgradeable digital back, THAT will be worth it.

That would mean we could buy one camera, same as before, get fast fps with a motor drive and just update the back when needed.

That is the one caveat I see for a retro camera being useful at this stage.

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