Sorry, Sony - no more purchases for awhile

Started Oct 21, 2013 | Discussions
LifeIsAVerb
Contributing MemberPosts: 988
Like?
Re: Sorry, Sony - no more purchases for awhile
In reply to PVCdroid, Oct 21, 2013

.

I suggest therapy. Or a support group. Maybe both; this sounds serious.

.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Mel Snyder
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,793Gear list
Like?
Re: Sorry, Sony - no more purchases for awhile
In reply to Tonkotsu Ramen, Oct 21, 2013

Tonkotsu Ramen wrote:

wasn't it just a name change?

I love your forum name! Is that your favorite dish?

 Mel Snyder's gear list:Mel Snyder's gear list
Sony Alpha NEX-6 Sony Alpha 7 Sony E 16mm F2.8 Pancake Leica Summicron-M 50mm f/2 Sony E 55-210mm F4.5-6.3 OSS +12 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
PVCdroid
Senior MemberPosts: 2,126Gear list
Like?
Re: Sorry, Sony - no more purchases for awhile
In reply to sroute, Oct 21, 2013

sroute wrote:

With all respect, in my opinion you are thinking irrationally.

APS-C isn't dead, far from it, and for Sony APS-C is the single largest selling product category in its interchangeable lens camera line up. They'd be insane to drop it, and they aren't. The market isn't calling for them to drop it and in fact Sony is bringing out new Sony Alpha APS-C NEX models.

All Sony is doing is retiring a brand name, and they are doing it slowly. NEX has surpassed their expectations. What once was an experiment, has turned into a big business unit for them. They want to bring NEX and Alpha SLT and Alpha mirrorless compact product families together from a marketing perspective.

Just look at what they've done to inspire so much angst, they changed product names from:

Sony NEX to

Sony Alpha NEX.

Wow. Scary.

What Sony did with the A7 is both brilliant and is also a boon to all existing and future NEX owners -- by adopting the E mount for the Alpha A7/A7r cameras they've essentially said that E mount will live on forever.

For technical reasons they could have chosen to abandon E mount in favour of another mount and made their lives a little easier, but by supporting E mount on both Alpha full frame and Alpha NEX APS-C cameras they've given the users of both cameras a migration path and an ability to use either camera lines as a backup to the other.

If I already own a NEX and lenses and buy into the A7 and some FE optics, i can use FE on my NEX; I can use E on my A7 (in crop mode). The NEX makes for a good backup camera to an A7. A FE 55 makes for an excellent medium telephoto on NEX.

Sony isn't abandoning NEX, they are ensuring it lives on.

Respectfully, you've got your thinking ass-backwards.

It is great that Sony's new FF lenses will fit APS-C but I'm not going to buy more APS-C format lenses without a line of cameras to go with them, especially one that is $1,000. You are all thinking Sony is going to rebrand the NEX but Sony has not said this or provided a roadmap for us. It's only speculation.

 PVCdroid's gear list:PVCdroid's gear list
Sony Alpha NEX-5N Sony Alpha NEX-7 Sony Alpha 7R
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Donny out of Element here
Contributing MemberPosts: 693Gear list
Like?
Re: Simple answer: APS-C E-mount is here to stay.
In reply to PVCdroid, Oct 21, 2013

PVCdroid wrote:

After building up my rig and a lot of fun with the NEX-7 since June this year, I've decided to return my newest purchase, the SEL1670Z. Sony's bomb drop last week of no more NEX and no future guidance on APS-C support had me going back and forth on what to do over the weekend as my return date deadline was approaching today. I really love the SEL1670Z but $1K was just too much to spend on a format that appears close to obsolete. My decision to return the new Zeiss was really tough and frankly I've lost sleep over it since the A7/A7r announcement. If full frame is where everything is going then I can save up and sell my current equipment without spending more on a losing proposition. Had I kept the SEL1670Z, it would have driven me nuts waiting to see what Sony decides to do. I could have kept it and sold it later but that's easier said than done. I already have the 16mm, UWA, Zeiss 24 1.8, Sigma 30mm 2.8 EX DN and 50mm 1.8, 55-210 as well as the kit. If Sony wants to go full frame and forget their APS-C customer base, that's fine but I can't contribute to their indecision or confusion.

BTW - In trying to make my decision, I replied to the A7/A7R Sony blog post questions. I decided to post a reply to a similar question from another customer asking Sony to provide a response to the uncertainty of APS-C future since the blog was closed to new questions. It was a polite post and sat there for about six hours until Sony deleted it. I don't think Sony is going to answer our APS-C questions any time soon. As someone else stated, it is common for a manufacturer NOT to hint at future products. However, it is not common to alienate a huge customer base as you are announcing a new product line. It really baffles me why they needed to make the statement of NEX=gone while announcing the A7/7R. It felt like "here it is and screw you if you don't like it". Wish I could take back all the great things I've said to friends, family and colleagues about Sony/NEX. What a shame. I'm sure many will say APS-C isn't dead for Sony but I have no proof of that today, my deadline to get the SEL1670Z back to B&H. It's just speculation.

I don't know where did you get idea that Sony is abandoning APS-C mirrorless cameras? It's opposite, 2 new cameras were released just a month ago and more yet to come. Zeiss announced macro lens for APS-C 50mm f2.8 which will come in November. Sony has roadmap that includes several new lenses for APS-C for 2014. How hard is it to get, that all that will change is 3 letters on the front plate will be erased and name "alpha" will be written - is that the reason for your hysterical thoughts? LOL.

We even know already the new APS-C cameras that will come as a NEX-6 and NEX-7 successors: A5 and A5r.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
rayman 2
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,218
Like?
Re: Sorry, Sony - no more purchases for awhile
In reply to PVCdroid, Oct 21, 2013

PVCdroid wrote:

sroute wrote:

With all respect, in my opinion you are thinking irrationally.

APS-C isn't dead, far from it, and for Sony APS-C is the single largest selling product category in its interchangeable lens camera line up. They'd be insane to drop it, and they aren't. The market isn't calling for them to drop it and in fact Sony is bringing out new Sony Alpha APS-C NEX models.

All Sony is doing is retiring a brand name, and they are doing it slowly. NEX has surpassed their expectations. What once was an experiment, has turned into a big business unit for them. They want to bring NEX and Alpha SLT and Alpha mirrorless compact product families together from a marketing perspective.

Just look at what they've done to inspire so much angst, they changed product names from:

Sony NEX to

Sony Alpha NEX.

Wow. Scary.

What Sony did with the A7 is both brilliant and is also a boon to all existing and future NEX owners -- by adopting the E mount for the Alpha A7/A7r cameras they've essentially said that E mount will live on forever.

For technical reasons they could have chosen to abandon E mount in favour of another mount and made their lives a little easier, but by supporting E mount on both Alpha full frame and Alpha NEX APS-C cameras they've given the users of both cameras a migration path and an ability to use either camera lines as a backup to the other.

If I already own a NEX and lenses and buy into the A7 and some FE optics, i can use FE on my NEX; I can use E on my A7 (in crop mode). The NEX makes for a good backup camera to an A7. A FE 55 makes for an excellent medium telephoto on NEX.

Sony isn't abandoning NEX, they are ensuring it lives on.

Respectfully, you've got your thinking ass-backwards.

It is great that Sony's new FF lenses will fit APS-C but I'm not going to buy more APS-C format lenses without a line of cameras to go with them, especially one that is $1,000. You are all thinking Sony is going to rebrand the NEX but Sony has not said this or provided a roadmap for us. It's only speculation.

There is a roadmap ! The next zoom lens for apsc to come out is the G lens zoom that was in the press release with the Zeiss ! There is not that much missing anymore in the apsc range that isnt to

long and heavy for the mount.... you wont see a 2.8 300mm for the emount !

Peter

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
viking79
Forum ProPosts: 13,550Gear list
Like?
Re: Sorry, Sony - no more purchases for awhile
In reply to PVCdroid, Oct 21, 2013

PVCdroid wrote:

It is great that Sony's new FF lenses will fit APS-C but I'm not going to buy more APS-C format lenses without a line of cameras to go with them, especially one that is $1,000. You are all thinking Sony is going to rebrand the NEX but Sony has not said this or provided a roadmap for us. It's only speculation.

Again, You are the one speculating. Nikon didn't kill off their APS-C cameras when they released the D600. The only camera that might have suffered is the D300, people still want a D400, but the spot got squeezed out by the D7000 and the D600.

Why in the heck would Sony release an A7 for $1700 and say, wait, we are going to stop making our $500-$1000 NEX line? It would be the worst business choice in history. edit: what does make sense is slowly change the NEX line to Alpha to clue people into the fact that everything is interchangeable and it is one cohesive system.

Eric

 viking79's gear list:viking79's gear list
Sony Alpha 7R Samsung NX30 Samsung NX 30mm F2 Pancake Samsung NX 85mm F1.4 ED SSA Samsung NX 60mm F2.8 Macro ED OIS SSA +5 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
shibbs
Regular MemberPosts: 115
Like?
Re: Sorry, Sony - no more purchases for awhile
In reply to PVCdroid, Oct 21, 2013

PVCdroid wrote:

After building up my rig and a lot of fun with the NEX-7 since June this year, I've decided to return my newest purchase, the SEL1670Z. Sony's bomb drop last week of no more NEX and no future guidance on APS-C support had me going back and forth on what to do over the weekend as my return date deadline was approaching today. I really love the SEL1670Z but $1K was just too much to spend on a format that appears close to obsolete. My decision to return the new Zeiss was really tough and frankly I've lost sleep over it since the A7/A7r announcement. If full frame is where everything is going then I can save up and sell my current equipment without spending more on a losing proposition. Had I kept the SEL1670Z, it would have driven me nuts waiting to see what Sony decides to do. I could have kept it and sold it later but that's easier said than done. I already have the 16mm, UWA, Zeiss 24 1.8, Sigma 30mm 2.8 EX DN and 50mm 1.8, 55-210 as well as the kit. If Sony wants to go full frame and forget their APS-C customer base, that's fine but I can't contribute to their indecision or confusion.

BTW - In trying to make my decision, I replied to the A7/A7R Sony blog post questions. I decided to post a reply to a similar question from another customer asking Sony to provide a response to the uncertainty of APS-C future since the blog was closed to new questions. It was a polite post and sat there for about six hours until Sony deleted it. I don't think Sony is going to answer our APS-C questions any time soon. As someone else stated, it is common for a manufacturer NOT to hint at future products. However, it is not common to alienate a huge customer base as you are announcing a new product line. It really baffles me why they needed to make the statement of NEX=gone while announcing the A7/7R. It felt like "here it is and screw you if you don't like it". Wish I could take back all the great things I've said to friends, family and colleagues about Sony/NEX. What a shame. I'm sure many will say APS-C isn't dead for Sony but I have no proof of that today, my deadline to get the SEL1670Z back to B&H. It's just speculation.

Wake up people, why would sony bring out the 16-70z the 50mm in black, sigma updated there 2 lenses +1 and zeiss bring out there range, if apsc is dead. I believe there will be more cameras like the 3, 5, 6 and 7 they just won't be called nex.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
nevercat
Senior MemberPosts: 2,528
Like?
Re: The time of year for NEX APS lenses
In reply to DT200, Oct 21, 2013

DT200 wrote:

The fall is usually when Sony releases all the NEX APS lenses. This year there appears to be almost nothing and only $1000 FE lenses that are larger than they would be on APS NEX.

Well let look at the facts in these months APS lenses has been announced:

Jan: E20

May: E16, E18-55, E18-200, E18-200LE

June: E30

August: E50, E55-210, E18-105mm, 16-70 Zeiss, E24 Zeiss

September: E10-18, E16-50 PZ, E35, E PZ 18-200

So 6 APS lenses are relesed befor summer, 5 in august and 4 in september.

This year (2013 the following lenses for APS were released: E20, E18-105 and the E16-70 Zeiss. One lens we still can expect, the short tele prime lens.

So that shows that Nex lenses where relesed in 5 months and in all seasons!

Are APS NEX owners excited about an F/2.8 35mm lens or F/1.8 55mm lens that cost around $1000?

No, but the 70-200 F4 looks good to me...

I think this will be enough to stop your doubts? 3 lenses this year, and 0ne on is way....

Hope Sony will show a rodmap for their APS lenses for the comming years too. But when the FF lenses are not to expensive then they might do the trick too!

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
sroute
Senior MemberPosts: 2,459
Like?
Re: Sorry, Sony - no more purchases for awhile
In reply to PVCdroid, Oct 21, 2013

Not buying more APS-C format lenses might be a smart idea if you plan on moving to a full frame platform in the future.

But not buying more APS-C format lenses because you've developed an irrational fear of Sony's marketing strategy is not a good reason to avoid purchasing equipment.

Sony's Alpha and NEX line have always had cross pollination with accessories like the LEAx adapters that allow Alpha mount lenses to be used on the NEX E mount platform; those same adapters can be used on the new Alpha full frame A7 cameras. Collapsing NEX into Alpha is merely a marketing move to reduce confusion over the long run.

If any product group community has something to fear it would be the Alpha SLT line-up, a product line which has the smallest market share in the DSLR (DSLT) space of all the major makers. In contrast, Sony Alpha NEX APS-C cameras represent a very large chunk of world wide sales in that category.

http://store.sony.com/digital-cameras/cat-27-catid-Digital-Cameras

Look at the above Sony web site and repeat after me:

Sony Alpha DSLR, Sony Alpha NEX, Sony Alpha DSLR, Sony Alpha NEX, Sony Alpha DSLR, Sony Alpha NEX, Sony Alpha DSLR, Sony Alpha NEX....

Getting rid of NEX, the label, not the products, makes sense, and they'll do it gently if you'd only let them. In time we'll probably refer to the different cameras as Alpha-E and Alpha-FE or just E and FE, much like in the Nikon line up where APS-C cameras and lenses are referred to as DX and full frame cameras and lenses are referred to as FX.

Take a pill and chill out.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Mel Snyder
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,793Gear list
Like?
Re: Sorry, Sony - no more purchases for awhile
In reply to LifeIsAVerb, Oct 21, 2013

LifeIsAVerb wrote:

.

I suggest therapy. Or a support group. Maybe both; this sounds serious.

.

There are already too many inmates here. We need an asylum, not a therapist.

 Mel Snyder's gear list:Mel Snyder's gear list
Sony Alpha NEX-6 Sony Alpha 7 Sony E 16mm F2.8 Pancake Leica Summicron-M 50mm f/2 Sony E 55-210mm F4.5-6.3 OSS +12 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
PVCdroid
Senior MemberPosts: 2,126Gear list
Like?
Re: Simple answer: APS-C E-mount is here to stay.
In reply to Donny out of Element here, Oct 21, 2013

Donny out of Element here wrote:

PVCdroid wrote:

After building up my rig and a lot of fun with the NEX-7 since June this year, I've decided to return my newest purchase, the SEL1670Z. Sony's bomb drop last week of no more NEX and no future guidance on APS-C support had me going back and forth on what to do over the weekend as my return date deadline was approaching today. I really love the SEL1670Z but $1K was just too much to spend on a format that appears close to obsolete. My decision to return the new Zeiss was really tough and frankly I've lost sleep over it since the A7/A7r announcement. If full frame is where everything is going then I can save up and sell my current equipment without spending more on a losing proposition. Had I kept the SEL1670Z, it would have driven me nuts waiting to see what Sony decides to do. I could have kept it and sold it later but that's easier said than done. I already have the 16mm, UWA, Zeiss 24 1.8, Sigma 30mm 2.8 EX DN and 50mm 1.8, 55-210 as well as the kit. If Sony wants to go full frame and forget their APS-C customer base, that's fine but I can't contribute to their indecision or confusion.

BTW - In trying to make my decision, I replied to the A7/A7R Sony blog post questions. I decided to post a reply to a similar question from another customer asking Sony to provide a response to the uncertainty of APS-C future since the blog was closed to new questions. It was a polite post and sat there for about six hours until Sony deleted it. I don't think Sony is going to answer our APS-C questions any time soon. As someone else stated, it is common for a manufacturer NOT to hint at future products. However, it is not common to alienate a huge customer base as you are announcing a new product line. It really baffles me why they needed to make the statement of NEX=gone while announcing the A7/7R. It felt like "here it is and screw you if you don't like it". Wish I could take back all the great things I've said to friends, family and colleagues about Sony/NEX. What a shame. I'm sure many will say APS-C isn't dead for Sony but I have no proof of that today, my deadline to get the SEL1670Z back to B&H. It's just speculation.

I don't know where did you get idea that Sony is abandoning APS-C mirrorless cameras? It's opposite, 2 new cameras were released just a month ago and more yet to come. Zeiss announced macro lens for APS-C 50mm f2.8 which will come in November. Sony has roadmap that includes several new lenses for APS-C for 2014. How hard is it to get, that all that will change is 3 letters on the front plate will be erased and name "alpha" will be written - is that the reason for your hysterical thoughts? LOL.

We even know already the new APS-C cameras that will come as a NEX-6 and NEX-7 successors: A5 and A5r.

Not hysterical but logical. I'm not going to buy a $1K lens that won't work properly on a full frame camera which is what I want to buy in the future. That is the direction Sony is going from staying up listening to the A7/7R event and reading everything I can. Is that new 50mm f2.8 really for APS-C or full frame? For that matter, Sony hasn't even thought through the naming convention of APS-C lenses vs. Full Frame.

Example:

SEL24F18Z = APS-C format 24mm Zeiss lens

SEL35F28Z = Full frame 35mm Zeiss lens

SEL35F18 = APS-C format 35mm Sony lens

 PVCdroid's gear list:PVCdroid's gear list
Sony Alpha NEX-5N Sony Alpha NEX-7 Sony Alpha 7R
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
sroute
Senior MemberPosts: 2,459
Like?
Re: Sorry, Sony - no more purchases for awhile
In reply to sroute, Oct 21, 2013

PS: Is there a full moon or a Friday the 13th on the horizon or something? Some of the posts in the Sony forum recently have me wondering if there are bizarre forces at work.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
kdkp
New MemberPosts: 3
Like?
Re: Sorry, Sony - no more purchases for awhile
In reply to PVCdroid, Oct 21, 2013

First, I certainly don't know about future of the NEX ASP-C family, specifically the NEX6, NEX7, and their expensive Zeiss lenses.

Now, the price for A7 is $1700 (body) whereas price for NEX 7 is $950 (body).

We all know that camera body will diminish in value fast. Once the price of the A7 drops to about $1200-1300, there will be a lot of legitimate concerns over monetary values of those ASP-C cameras and especially those ASP-C Zeiss lenses.

Just my 2 cents.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
sroute
Senior MemberPosts: 2,459
Like?
Re: Simple answer: APS-C E-mount is here to stay.
In reply to PVCdroid, Oct 21, 2013

PVCdroid wrote:

Not hysterical but logical. I'm not going to buy a $1K lens that won't work properly on a full frame camera which is what I want to buy in the future.

Then definitely do not buy an APS-C lens, unless that "future" for you is years down the road and you need a $1K lens today.

If you plan on switching camera systems (from APS-C to full frame) that is your decision, not Sony's. All Sony is doing is giving you choice. Sony is not removing choice.

If you can't understand that, there's no point in further discourse.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
dquangt
Contributing MemberPosts: 994
Like?
you see the irony in your post don't you
In reply to PVCdroid, Oct 21, 2013

PVCdroid wrote:

rayman 2 wrote:

aps-c Emount and FF E mount is here to stay !!!!

No nead to misunderstand what Sony is going to do !

The nex 3 and 5 are consolidated into an alpha 3 and the 6 and 7 into an alpha 5.....

so what the big deal !

I bought a 16-70 2 weeks ago and I´m going on the list for the 7r for all my legacy glass

like Canon FD !

Great times for Sony users !

Peter

Sony hasn't said anything close to what you are predicting. You may be correct but it's only speculation.

ummm...you are the one speculating on the end of APS support from sony.

They have said the following:

- NEW A7/AR and a line up of new full frame lenses

- NEX is gone

no, the NEX name is gone. they will now just be under the alpha line. the videos and articles around have said this. that's not speculation.

They are being vague on the future of APS-C format cameras and lenses in their live event last week and in their blog post. Please be factual.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
dquangt
Contributing MemberPosts: 994
Like?
Re: Sorry, Sony - no more purchases for awhile
In reply to PVCdroid, Oct 21, 2013

PVCdroid wrote:

It is great that Sony's new FF lenses will fit APS-C but I'm not going to buy more APS-C format lenses without a line of cameras to go with them, especially one that is $1,000. You are all thinking Sony is going to rebrand the NEX but Sony has not said this or provided a roadmap for us. It's only speculation.

actually i'm pretty sure they did say this.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
viking79
Forum ProPosts: 13,550Gear list
Like?
Re: Simple answer: APS-C E-mount is here to stay.
In reply to PVCdroid, Oct 21, 2013

PVCdroid wrote:

I'm not going to buy a $1K lens that won't work properly on a full frame camera which is what I want to buy in the future.

Then don't, buy a full frame lens instead, what is your problem?

That is the direction Sony is going from staying up listening to the A7/7R event and reading everything I can. Is that new 50mm f2.8 really for APS-C or full frame?

To which 50mm f/2.8 are you referring?

For that matter, Sony hasn't even thought through the naming convention of APS-C lenses vs. Full Frame.

These aren't lens names, they are model numbers.  I think FE vs E is blatantly obvious differentiation.  Canon has EF and EF-S to indicate the difference.  Nikon has DX and FX.  I don't really see what is wrong with FE vs E.

Example:

SEL24F18Z = APS-C format 24mm Zeiss lens

SEL35F28Z = Full frame 35mm Zeiss lens

SEL35F18 = APS-C format 35mm Sony lens

 viking79's gear list:viking79's gear list
Sony Alpha 7R Samsung NX30 Samsung NX 30mm F2 Pancake Samsung NX 85mm F1.4 ED SSA Samsung NX 60mm F2.8 Macro ED OIS SSA +5 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Mel Snyder
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,793Gear list
Like?
Re: Sorry, Sony - no more purchases for awhile
In reply to kdkp, Oct 21, 2013

kdkp wrote:

First, I certainly don't know about future of the NEX ASP-C family, specifically the NEX6, NEX7, and their expensive Zeiss lenses.

Now, the price for A7 is $1700 (body) whereas price for NEX 7 is $950 (body).

We all know that camera body will diminish in value fast. Once the price of the A7 drops to about $1200-1300, there will be a lot of legitimate concerns over monetary values of those ASP-C cameras and especially those ASP-C Zeiss lenses.

Just my 2 cents.

Buy stocks not cameras if you are concerned about "monetary values." The way the technology is turning over, used ones are going to be worth next to nothing in a year - even though they will take great photos for decades.

 Mel Snyder's gear list:Mel Snyder's gear list
Sony Alpha NEX-6 Sony Alpha 7 Sony E 16mm F2.8 Pancake Leica Summicron-M 50mm f/2 Sony E 55-210mm F4.5-6.3 OSS +12 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
shibbs
Regular MemberPosts: 115
Like?
Re: Simple answer: APS-C E-mount is here to stay.
In reply to viking79, Oct 21, 2013
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
DezM
Forum ProPosts: 33,854
Like?
The OP has a legitimate gripe
In reply to Gimble, Oct 21, 2013

Gimble wrote:

I still don't get all the fuss???

The NEX name is disappearing but there is no evidence that there will be no NEX like cameras down the line. As I understood it the NEX cameras have been very popular. So that is a strong indication that such cameras will continue.

We also cannot expect Sony to come on to any user forum and announce the future of NEX like APS-C cameras to reassure forum users before they make an official press release.

It makes sense to me for Sony to consolidate their lineups given that they have so many similar lines - the Alpha A series APS-C and FF SLTs, the new A series E mount cameras and the NEX range.

Why must the Sony fan-boys defend Sony to the very end? The OP has a legitimate gripe and has heavily invested in NEX. He posted a question on their site (or blog) which was promptly deleted.

This is Sony's own doing if people leave their camp. The Sony NEX user-base needs to know in which direction Sony is going. The speculation, rumors and theories throughout are nauseating. Sony needs to be direct on what their immediate and future plans are.

-- hide signature --
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads