70D replaces 7D

Started Oct 21, 2013 | Discussions
TTMartin
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Re: 70D replaces 7D
In reply to bobn2, Oct 22, 2013

bobn2 wrote:

TTMartin wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

TTMartin wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

FGS wrote:

Do you think that the 70D is the replacement of 7D or soon will be there a replacement of 7D with other model?

No to both questions. I think that Canon has reconfigured its camera lineup and the place occupied by the 7D no longer exists. When the 7D was announced, there was no 6D - the 6D pretty much fills the price slot where the 7D used to live. I think that Canon sees people who want an action oriented camera below the 1D buying the 5D MkIII.

The 6D and 7D are such different cameras Canon could offer a APS-C 7D Mk II at the same price point. It would need 1D frame rate and auto focus and 5D Mk III body and control layout, but, there is definitely a market for it. There is a big price gap between the 70D and 5D Mk III.

They could, the question is whether they want to. I would also wonder about the actual size of the market. The total DSLR market doesn't seem to move fast in terms of volume, which means that the new cameras (low end FF) are taking market share rather than create it. I suspect that both Nikon and Canon have had their market research people come to an opinion as to what would sell better, low end FF or high end APS-C and both came to the conclusion that low end FF would. There is a very strong Nikon Roumor (which are almost always right at this stage) that Nikon will release a new FF DSLR within 2 weeks, compact, 16MP and retro styled. I would expect this to come in below the D610. So, what Nikon does, Canon seems to do too.

Only if Nikon proves there is sufficient market. Canon does not blindly follow every Nikon product. The Nikon D300 for example was introduced the same time as the Canon 40D, Canon introduced the 50D a year later, it wasn't till the following year that Canon introduced the 7D.

That was then, not now. Since then there has been a remarkable step by step opening and closing of camera segments. Both decided to kill off the $8k high res versions of the top end pro camera. Both made their highest res camera the second string FF. Bothe introduced a cheaper FF. It seems lately that one doesn't move without the other following within a few days. Wait for a 8D or 9D within days of the new Nikon (probably D400).

edit: also, Canon seems to resist adding 'features' for strictly marketing. Canon stuck with 18 megapixel APS-C sensors, because as DxOMark Perceptual Megapixels show going much beyond that offers diminishing returns.

I don't believe that is the reason that Canon stuck with 18MP APS-C. I think they couldn't make anything smaller on the 500nm line they use for DSLR sensors. It will be interesting to see if the effectively 40MP 70D sensor is made on the new line. As for 'diminishing returns', not really

These prove my point! For the extra 6 megapixels of the D7100 you have a 2 megapixel gain in Perceptual Megapixels. Or looking at it another way the 7D gives you .44 Perceptual Megapixels per camera megapixel, and the D7100 gives you .41 Perceptual Megapixels per camera megapixel. These results are even with the D7100 not having an anti-aliasing filter!

Either way it is diminishing returns.

To be fair newer ART version of this lens performs better on the D7100, but, even it is reaching a point of diminishing returns on the D7100.

For the same reason I don't expect we will ever see a high megapixel full frame equivalent to the D800 from Canon. You just don't gain that much real resolution from the additional megapixels.

Not really

The Sigma 35mm f/1.4 DG HSM A is one of the sharpest lenses available, it should do better than most other lenses, but, even here.

For the 14 extra megapixels of the D800 you have a 4 megapixel gain in Perceptual Megapixels. Or looking at it the other way the 5D Mk III gives you .85 Perceptual Megapixels per camera megapixel, and the D800 gives you .63 Perceptual Megapixels per camera megapixel. Either way it is diminishing returns.

I would expect that a high megapixel medium format camera is much more likely from Canon. The larger optics of medium format can take better advantage of those additional megapixels, and makes more sense for those that need higher resolution.

I very much doubt it. It would require a complete new system, and there is no market in MF. The truth also is that MF has no decisive advantage over a D800 (or A7r)

http://blog.mingthein.com/2012/05/05/an-unfair-fight-nikon-d800e-vs-leica-s2-p/

Not introducing a 7D Mk II would leave the 5D Mk III a bit of an ergonomic orphan, as the control layouts of the 60D, 6D and 70D are so much different. I don't see Canon completely abandoning the 20D/5D/30D/40D/50D/5D Mk II/7D/5D Mk III control layout at this time.

The 7D was an 'ergonomic orphan' before the 5D Mk III. My opinion (only an opinion) is that Canon would see the 5DIII as the natural progression for 7D owners, even if not all of them see it that way.

The 7D was ergonomically similar to the 50D it replaced, and the 5D Mk II that was current until the 5D Mk III was introduced also had the same general right hand control layout. I don't consider moving around left hand photo review buttons as having a significant ergonomic impact while actually taking pictures.

The 70D has the same buttons, just they've changed (some say improved) the functions. I'd guess that this is an evolution, not a high/low thing, that is that new two wheel/mode wheel cameras will follow the 70D.

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Midwest
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Re: 70D replaces 7D
In reply to FGS, Oct 22, 2013

Not THIS again. The answer is NO. The 70D is not the same class of camera. A new 7D version is due in the spring.

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Midwest
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Re: Nope
In reply to Mark B., Oct 22, 2013

Mark B. wrote:

FGS wrote:

Do you think that the 70D is the replacement of 7D or soon will be there a replacement of 7D with other model?

Thanks

The 70D features a slower frame rate and smaller buffer. As a 7D user that needs the speed & buffer size, I'll wait.

Not only that but the 70D is a plastic / composite bodied camera while the 7D is metal alloy. The difference is not surviving a drop onto concrete but long-term durability without parts coming loose or the geometry being distorted by heavy lenses and rough treatment.

The 7D is as professional an APS-C camera as is made; the 70D is a great camera but simply not the same level. Yes, it will outdo a 7D in some ways now, but the 7D Mark II is going to outdo it significantly.

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Midwest
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Re: 70D replaces 7D
In reply to R2D2, Oct 22, 2013

R2D2 wrote:

FGS wrote:

Do you think that the 70D is the replacement of 7D or soon will be there a replacement of 7D with other model?

There's still lots of room for a 7D Mk II. Neither the 70D nor the 6D can fill that gap.

Canon is not about to abandon their position with the flagship APS-C DSLR (and APS-C has some very definite advantages for some kinds of shooting) by killing off the 7D and replacing it with a lower-line camera.

Not gonna happen. A new 7D Mark II is rumored to be on the way 2nd quarter of next year, and it will costa plenty at least at initial release.

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Midwest
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Re: 70D replaces 7D
In reply to Thorbard, Oct 22, 2013

Thorbard wrote:

R2D2 wrote:

FGS wrote:

Do you think that the 70D is the replacement of 7D or soon will be there a replacement of 7D with other model?

There's still lots of room for a 7D Mk II. Neither the 70D nor the 6D can fill that gap.

The reason you still won't see it for a while is because Nikon hasn't released a replacement for their top-tier APS-C body yet either. You should read the clamor over in NikonLand. And Oly, Sony, etc just aren't big enough players to provide enough push IMHO.

R2

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There are also a number of features of the 7D that aren't featured on the 70D, the frame rate, rear controls and viewfinder, for example.

Canon have said that a 7D Mark II will come eventually, but with no market pressure and the 7D still selling well, it could be a while. Even so the 7D is still a very capable camera. If you want an upgrade, consider the 1D Mark IV or the 1DX.

I bought a nice clean used 7D several months ago for about $800 and I couldn't be happier with my decision. The 7D is possibly one of the very best DSLR's that Canon ever made. I don't expect to be able to afford an upgrade to a Mk II anytime in the next few years but I am quite pleased to keep it.

Quite a contrast in approach to the people (often the bridge or point/shoot bunch) who are racing to get on the preorder list for every minor upgrade version to their six month old camera.

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Mark B.
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Re: 70D replaces 7D
In reply to bobn2, Oct 22, 2013

bobn2 wrote:

FGS wrote:

Do you think that the 70D is the replacement of 7D or soon will be there a replacement of 7D with other model?

No to both questions. I think that Canon has reconfigured its camera lineup and the place occupied by the 7D no longer exists. When the 7D was announced, there was no 6D - the 6D pretty much fills the price slot where the 7D used to live.

We've beaten this dead horse before.  Price is hardly the only feature distinguishing 2 cameras.  As you well know, they are very different cameras - sensor size, build quality, speed, built-in flash, etc.

I think that Canon sees people who want an action oriented camera below the 1D buying the 5D MkIII.

Nope.  If I didn't have a camera already, I'd choose the 7D - not the 5D III.

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bobn2
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Re: 70D replaces 7D
In reply to Mark B., Oct 22, 2013

Mark B. wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

FGS wrote:

Do you think that the 70D is the replacement of 7D or soon will be there a replacement of 7D with other model?

No to both questions. I think that Canon has reconfigured its camera lineup and the place occupied by the 7D no longer exists. When the 7D was announced, there was no 6D - the 6D pretty much fills the price slot where the 7D used to live.

We've beaten this dead horse before. Price is hardly the only feature distinguishing 2 cameras. As you well know, they are very different cameras - sensor size, build quality, speed, built-in flash, etc.

I never said otherwise, but Canon doesn't have to have every possible camera in its range.

I think that Canon sees people who want an action oriented camera below the 1D buying the 5D MkIII.

Nope. If I didn't have a camera already, I'd choose the 7D - not the 5D III.

I wasn't talking about what you'd choose, I was talking about what Canon saw people doing.

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bobn2
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Re: 70D replaces 7D
In reply to Midwest, Oct 22, 2013

Midwest wrote:

Not gonna happen. A new 7D Mark II is rumored to be on the way 2nd quarter of next year, and it will costa plenty at least at initial release.

It's been rumoured to be on the way 2nd quarter of next year for about 2 years.

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bobn2
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Re: Nope
In reply to Midwest, Oct 22, 2013

Midwest wrote:

Mark B. wrote:

FGS wrote:

Do you think that the 70D is the replacement of 7D or soon will be there a replacement of 7D with other model?

Thanks

The 70D features a slower frame rate and smaller buffer. As a 7D user that needs the speed & buffer size, I'll wait.

Not only that but the 70D is a plastic / composite bodied camera while the 7D is metal alloy.

7D is mostly plastic, the skin is metal.

The difference is not surviving a drop onto concrete but long-term durability without parts coming loose or the geometry being distorted by heavy lenses and rough treatment.

That isn't a difference. Metal chassis can often survive a drop worse than plastic, they tend to crack. Luckily the 7D is plastic with steel reinforcement, less likely to crack.

The 7D is as professional an APS-C camera as is made; the 70D is a great camera but simply not the same level. Yes, it will outdo a 7D in some ways now, but the 7D Mark II is going to outdo it significantly.

The only real difference in construction is that the 7D has metal covers while the 70D has plastic ones.

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bobn2
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Re: 70D replaces 7D
In reply to Midwest, Oct 22, 2013

Midwest wrote:

Not THIS again. The answer is NO. The 70D is not the same class of camera. A new 7D version is due in the spring.

I thought it was second quarter, or was it third?

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goanna
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Re: 70D replaces 7D
In reply to TTMartin, Oct 23, 2013

TTMartin wrote:

The 7D was ergonomically similar to the 50D it replaced,

Really!!!! - AFAIK the 60D replaced the 50D.

The 7D a completely new line of camera at the time.

IMO the 7D will definitely be replaced

There is not a camera in the current Canon line up that I would buy to replace my 7D.

I would however purchase a 5DMkIII to supplement it (as does my 5D) if $'s weren't an issue for me but I would not sell the 7D.

and the 5D Mk II that was current until the 5D Mk III was introduced also had the same general right hand control layout. I don't consider moving around left hand photo review buttons as having a significant ergonomic impact while actually taking pictures.

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Lee Baby Simms
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Re: Nahh... hopefully not
In reply to Alastair Norcross, Oct 23, 2013

Whatever — I'm not in that customer grouping anyway.

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TTMartin
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Re: 70D replaces 7D
In reply to goanna, Oct 23, 2013

goanna wrote:

TTMartin wrote:

The 7D was ergonomically similar to the 50D it replaced,

Really!!!! - AFAIK the 60D replaced the 50D.

Then you would be wrong, the Canon 7D was the direct successor to the 50D, and until Canon Europe updated the 7D information after Firmware 2.0 they specifically stated that though thatlink is now dead. It was interesting that Canon USA never made that statement.

Canon Europe still has a lot of references to the 50D left in the text.

  • The EOS 7D uses a gapless microlens design, like the EOS 50D, to gather the light more efficiently
  • the EOS 7D is approximately 1.3x faster than the EOS 50D at moving the data from the sensor into the processing pipeline.
  • The EOS 7D’s sensor uses a similar EOS Integrated Cleaning System to the system deployed in the EOS 50D
  • While it has the same coverage area as the sensor found in the EOS 50D it has 10 extra points, making it a 19-point system with several new AF point selection methods.
  • For enhanced precision, the central AF point features extra sensitivity when used with lenses having a maximum aperture of f/2.8 or faster thanks to the diagonal arrangement of the cross-type sensor - a feature first seen on the EOS 50D
  • To drive the shutter unit, the high performance dual motor shutter from the EOS 50D has been fine-tuned to extract the highest performance levels.

The 7D a completely new line of camera at the time.

The 60D was a completely new line of camera, sharing only the XXD numbering of previous models.

edit: It is my personal belief that Canon never intended on there being a 60D when they introduced the 7D. The 7D was a major update to the 50D, so much so that people kept asking where was the 60D. Canon then had to design and slot a new camera between the Rebel line and the 7D. This is why many people don't feel the 60D was an improvement over the 50D, as it lost some of the 50D's features. It also explains why the 40D was introduced in 2007, the 50D was introduced in 2008, the 7D was introduced in 2009, and the 60D was introduced in 2010. Of course by then, the world economies had collapsed and traditional update cycles all went by the wayside.

IMO the 7D will definitely be replaced

Agreed

There is not a camera in the current Canon line up that I would buy to replace my 7D.

I would however purchase a 5DMkIII to supplement it (as does my 5D) if $'s weren't an issue for me but I would not sell the 7D.

and the 5D Mk II that was current until the 5D Mk III was introduced also had the same general right hand control layout. I don't consider moving around left hand photo review buttons as having a significant ergonomic impact while actually taking pictures.

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ljudice
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Re: 70D replaces 7D
In reply to bobn2, Oct 23, 2013

If the 7D II incorporates GPS and WiFi (as one might guess it would), doesn't that mean it gets the 6D's hybrid metal/plastic body, which obviates one thing I hear repeatedly from 7D owners as differentiating themselves from other bodies?

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Thorbard
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Re: 70D replaces 7D
In reply to bobn2, Oct 23, 2013

bobn2 wrote:

Midwest wrote:

Not THIS again. The answer is NO. The 70D is not the same class of camera. A new 7D version is due in the spring.

I thought it was second quarter, or was it third?

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Bob

Rumours of the new 7D replacement have been circulating for about 4 years now, as far as I can tell. Canon have confirmed that such a camera will be made, but noone knows when. No point guessing...

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