Sony RX10 is interesting for m4/3 users Locked

Started Oct 17, 2013 | Discussions
This thread is locked.
jim stirling
Veteran MemberPosts: 6,169Gear list
Re: I'd prefer more lenses with narrower range anyways
In reply to dougjgreen1, Oct 20, 2013

dougjgreen1 wrote:

dougjgreen1 wrote:

jim stirling wrote:

dougjgreen1 wrote:

Henry Richardson wrote:

The Sony RX10 has the same 20mp sensor as the Sony RX100 II that is well thought of and it has an equivalent 24-200mm f2.8 Zeiss lens. Having a package that includes the equivalent of a 24-70mm f2.8 and 70-200mm f2.8 makes the $1200 price easier to take.

$1200 RX10

vs.

$1000 GX7
$1300 12-35mm f2.8
$1500 35-100mm f2.8

You can't change the lens on the RX10, but a lot of m4/3 people would be quite happy, I think, even if all they had were the 12-35mm and 35-100mm for their m4/3 camera.

I have read that the zoom-by-wire is poor because turning the zoom ring causes the focal length to change very slowly. Maybe that can be fixed in firmware? Still, this looks to be a very interesting camera. It isn't very small, but I can imagine that for some people this could be enticing. More dof, of course, than FF or APS-C and slightly more than m4/3, but that isn't a big deal for everyone.

I could see that some people might have an m4/3 body to use with a couple of fast single focal length lenses and the RX10 instead of buying the expensive 12-35mm and 35-100mm lenses.

-- hide signature --

Henry Richardson
http://www.bakubo.com

How does the shutter latency, AF performance and burst performance compare to an M4/3 camera?In other words, is the shooting performance more like an interchangeable lens system camera, or rather, like a high end point and shoot?

Are there a high quality wide and tele converters for the lens? 24mm is not wide enough for me nor is 200mm long enough for this to be my exclusive camera.

This camera is BIG: It weighs 29 ounces - that's twice the weight of my E-PL5 with a VF-2 and a pancake prime or kit zoom on it. I agree, if I were to include the extra telephoto zoom, things even out, but it's simply NOT a small camera.

The lens appears to be impressive, but my investment in it would be lost when the body/sensor is no longer competitive. If I paid $700-800 or so for an equivalent lens that I could keep for more than one generation of camera, it's a better deal in the long run.

Could you point me to an equivalent lens or lenses that covers a 12-100mm F3.7 range for $700-800 preferably $700 I am Scottish after all

Jim

All in all, it could not replace my system interchangeable lens cameras. I'd rather have them, and keep my Panasonic ZS8 superzoom pocket point and shoot with an admittedly slower 24-360mm lens and smaller sensor - which, BTW, I paid $60 for used on ebay.

I'd rather split the focal length range into 3 lenses. I'd prefer to carry a 40-150mm, a 14mm with a wide converter, and a 25mm f1.4 That way I'd go all the way from 10.5mm using the Sony wide converter and the 14mm) up to 300mm using the zoom. That would cost ~ $900, but I much prefer it to one wide range zoom. It's MUCH faster at the wide to normal end, and only very slightly slower at 200mm and then it extends all the way to 300mm.

I wouldnt have high hopes for the wide convertor  ,it is faster at the wide end well with the 14mm anyway , the 40-150 is slightly slower { F4 vs effective F3.75 of the R10} at the wide end and over a stop slower { F5.6 vs effective F3.75 of the R10] at the long end. I think with your $900 calculation you may have forgotten to add in a weather sealed mFT body with built in EVF to match the R10 build.

Anyways, I never said such an alternative m4/3 lens existed - just that I would prefer to have an interchangeable lens that could move across multiple generations of bodies/sensors so as to preserve my investment.

 jim stirling's gear list:jim stirling's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GF1 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7 Sony Alpha 7R Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH4 Nikon D810 +13 more
marike6
Senior MemberPosts: 5,070Gear list
Re: RX10 Sample images
In reply to jim stirling, Oct 20, 2013

jim stirling wrote:

I have zero interest in default JPEG output from any camera large or small so I would use RAW anyway. Judging a camera by default JPEG output on a pre-production model taken in a rush are very far from what I would use to judge image quality.

I don't often shoot JPEG either but a ton of m43 shooters do, think "Oly JPEGs". But the main thrust of your argument in favor of the RX10 is convenience. I can tell you as a D800 owner, there is nothing at all convenient about processing large amounts of high resolution RAW files in Lightroom. Fortunately the D800 has usable JPEGs.  Judging by these PhotographyBlog RX10 samples, processing huge 20 mp RAWs is exactly what RX10 owners are going to be doing. So now the convenience argument is not seeming so strong.

The RX10 has the same sensor as the RX100, however the RX100 JPEGs I remember as being considerably better than the PhotographyBlog samples which are shockingly mushy.

Even at low ISO settings as early as ISO 200 NR is absolutely obliterating most of the detail (See the images of the brunette). I have to wonder why Sony is using so much NR. Perhaps the sensor performance not as good as the RX100 or RX100 II? Who knows, the fairly mediocre low light ability of the RX10 as shown by the samples doesn't it to stack up well against the 16 mp m43 PENs, OM and GH series cameras.

http://www.photographyblog.com/previews/sony_cybershot_dsc_rx10_photos/

The original RX100 scored 390 ISO on DxOMark, the EM5 scores 812 ISO over 1 full stop better. The NEX APS-C cameras score around 1000 ISO, and a camera like the D7100 1264 ISO. The Fujifilm XTrans cameras haven't been tested by DxOMark, but they have incredibly good high ISO ability competitive with some of the older FF, the Leica M, and the Sony A99. Throw large aperture primes available in m43, Sony NEX and Fujifilm X cameras and the advantages over an RX100 or RX10 are even more dramatic.

And keep in mind an f/2.8 max aperture of the RX10 is not all that large compared to what is available in m43, APS-C and FF. Which means you'll be cranking up ISO, and hitting that point of compromise in terms of IQ.

Even the $400 Sony A3000 seems to produce images of much higher quality than the what I've seen from the RX10. Better DOF control, and much cleaner files. A comparison of the A3000 portraits of the girl in the below link with the PhotographyBlog RX10 portraits is not at all favorable for the RX10.

http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/topic100871_post1203883.html#1203883

Anyway, I can see some being interested in the RX10, but I don't see any relation to the concept of Micro 43, and I don't agree at all that m43 users in particular should be interested in a camera like the RX10.

All the best and happy shooting, Markus

 marike6's gear list:marike6's gear list
Nikon Coolpix P330 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH2 Nikon D800 Fujifilm X-E1 Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 ASPH +7 more
dougjgreen1
Senior MemberPosts: 2,200Gear list
Re: I'd prefer more lenses with narrower range anyways
In reply to jim stirling, Oct 20, 2013

jim stirling wrote:I wouldnt have high hopes for the wide convertor ,it is faster at the wide end well with the 14mm anyway , the 40-150 is slightly slower { F4 vs effective F3.75 of the R10} at the wide end and over a stop slower { F5.6 vs effective F3.75 of the R10] at the long end. I think with your $900 calculation you may have forgotten to add in a weather sealed mFT body with built in EVF to match the R10 build.

I didn't forget the weather-sealed body - I don't value it. And you forgot all of the times where my M4/3 lenses are faster (and BTW, I own and use the 14mm and that Sony wide converter - the combo works fine). I didn't forget the EVF either - my E-PL5 has one, it weighs an ounce, and it was moved onto my E-PL5 from a prior generation M4/3 camera - try that with the EVF of the RX10. The fact is, I don't wish to have, and don't choose to have one big zoom. I prefer small primes, a small tele zoom, and the occasional fast legacy lens.

Believe me, I can very easily get an M43 lens set that I prefer to the one on the RX10 for $900. In fact, I have one now, that I paid under $900 for (excluding my 7-14mm lens, that does things for me that I could not approach on an RX10). The fact is, the lens on the RX10 is stuck with it's sensor forever. The fact is, my M43 lenses are already on their 2nd generation of sensors. Some of my legacy primes have been with me for 35 years, across multiple film bodies prior to being used on multiple generations of sensors. That's what I mean by preserving an investment in lenses. All of that is lost when buying a camera with a fixed lens, where the vast majority of the expense is in the lens, but the lens' lifespan is necessarily limited to that of the camera and it's sensor.

Oh, and every once in a while, I put a legacy 300mm or 400mm lens on my M4/3 cameras (which is an effective 600mm or 800mm). I don't see a lot of options for doing that on an RX10.

 dougjgreen1's gear list:dougjgreen1's gear list
Olympus Stylus XZ-10 Olympus PEN E-PL5 Nikon 1 V2 Olympus E-M1 Olympus Zuiko Digital 11-22mm 1:2.8-3.5 +11 more
Sean Nelson
Forum ProPosts: 10,471
Re: And it will face the same Questions......
In reply to marike6, Oct 20, 2013

marike6 wrote:

The OP said that it should be of interest to m43 users because of some tenuous connection to an expensive Panasonic zooms. But other than that, nobody has explained why the RX10 should be of particular interest to m43. Best of luck.

In addition to Dheorl, I also provided an explaination.   But you seemed intent on twisting what I said and now it appears you're ignoring the people who are giving you the explanations.

It looks to me like you're making the classic mistake of assuming that, because the camera holds no interest for you, it must therefore hold no interest for any other M43 user either.  But it clearly does.   You may be unable to fathom the reasons why, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

dougjgreen1
Senior MemberPosts: 2,200Gear list
Re: RX10 Sample images
In reply to jim stirling, Oct 20, 2013

jim stirling wrote:

The image quality gap between the RX10/100mk2 is signifcantly smaller than the gap between mFT and the best APS

http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-cameras-side-by-side/%28appareil1%29/896|0/%28brand%29/Sony/%28appareil2%29/865|0/%28brand2%29/Nikon/%28appareil3%29/793|0/%28brand3%29/Olympus

As for the lens size difference that rather depends on whether you compare effective apertures. .Which you invariably do when you mention the RX10 . F/1.8 on Nikon APS has the same effect as F/1.2 on mFT

That's complete nonsense.  All you've shown is that the gap in the measured DxOMark is smaller.  Claiming that that specific test metric directly equates to Image Quality in it's entirety is laughable.

If you really believe that the DxOMark score is a perfect or even nearly perfect proxy for everything that goes into image quality, I have a bridge to sell you between Brooklyn and Manhattan.

 dougjgreen1's gear list:dougjgreen1's gear list
Olympus Stylus XZ-10 Olympus PEN E-PL5 Nikon 1 V2 Olympus E-M1 Olympus Zuiko Digital 11-22mm 1:2.8-3.5 +11 more
larsbc
Forum ProPosts: 11,494
Re: Jumping ship?
In reply to marike6, Oct 20, 2013

marike6 wrote:

$1400 buys a lot of good primes and a decent large sensor camera. YMMV.

I don't have any interest in the RX10 *but* I gotta say, it's a decent value proposition.  For $1400, what decent large sensor camera (with an EVF) can you buy, and still have money left over for good primes that come close to covering the focal range of the RX10?

dougjgreen1
Senior MemberPosts: 2,200Gear list
Re: Jumping ship?
In reply to larsbc, Oct 20, 2013

larsbc wrote:

marike6 wrote:

$1400 buys a lot of good primes and a decent large sensor camera. YMMV.

I don't have any interest in the RX10 *but* I gotta say, it's a decent value proposition. For $1400, what decent large sensor camera (with an EVF) can you buy, and still have money left over for good primes that come close to covering the focal range of the RX10?

Here's what I bought:

E-PL5 plus VF-2 $450

14mm f2.5 $140

20mm f1.7 $300

40-150mm $140

Legacy 50mm f1.7 Konica $20

Legacy 200mm f3.5 Vivitar $30

Adapters: $20

Total cost: $1090 mix of new and mint condition used gear,

I would contend that my system is better in every way except for 28mm equivalent at the wide end. BTW, I addressed that with a 7-14mm lens that cost me a bit over $700, but gives me superb super-wide capability that is important to me and which I can't get in any possible way with an RX10. And that's the problem with a fixed lens camera. I also have 400mm equivalent at the long end (300mm using new AF gear) - With an interchangeable lens camera, I have faster, wider, and longer capability than I could get with an RX10. And when I want to pack light, I take my camera with just one of the pancake primes and a legacy 50mm f1.7 lens, and that light kit weighs much less than an RX10.

 dougjgreen1's gear list:dougjgreen1's gear list
Olympus Stylus XZ-10 Olympus PEN E-PL5 Nikon 1 V2 Olympus E-M1 Olympus Zuiko Digital 11-22mm 1:2.8-3.5 +11 more
larsbc
Forum ProPosts: 11,494
Now you're comparing new gear vs used gear.
In reply to dougjgreen1, Oct 20, 2013

dougjgreen1 wrote:

larsbc wrote:

marike6 wrote:

$1400 buys a lot of good primes and a decent large sensor camera. YMMV.

I don't have any interest in the RX10 *but* I gotta say, it's a decent value proposition. For $1400, what decent large sensor camera (with an EVF) can you buy, and still have money left over for good primes that come close to covering the focal range of the RX10?

Here's what I bought:

Okay, if you're talking about used gear, then I'm out of this discussion. But perhaps you should have mentioned that in your original assertion.  I also don't think someone looking at an RX10 would be interested in manually focusing old glass.

Dheorl
Senior MemberPosts: 2,600Gear list
Re: Jumping ship?
In reply to dougjgreen1, Oct 20, 2013

dougjgreen1 wrote:

larsbc wrote:

marike6 wrote:

$1400 buys a lot of good primes and a decent large sensor camera. YMMV.

I don't have any interest in the RX10 *but* I gotta say, it's a decent value proposition. For $1400, what decent large sensor camera (with an EVF) can you buy, and still have money left over for good primes that come close to covering the focal range of the RX10?

Here's what I bought:

E-PL5 plus VF-2 $450

14mm f2.5 $140

20mm f1.7 $300

40-150mm $140

Legacy 50mm f1.7 Konica $20

Legacy 200mm f3.5 Vivitar $30

Adapters: $20

Total cost: $1090 mix of new and mint condition used gear,

I would contend that my system is better in every way except for 28mm equivalent at the wide end.

For you maybe. For me it is lacking any kind of sealing, is slower at the long end where i find it more important (both in real terms and in equivalance) I imagine isn't as good ergonomically (obviously I can't tell this for chain having not handled the RX10 but I normally don't get on well with interchangeable lens soap bar shaped cameras).

On top of all that I can't imagine as a kit it is much, if any lighter, and takes up much more space, a big factor for me considering the amount of outdoor pursuits I like to do. Yes you can drop down to just one prime but then you have 1/200th of the focal range of the RX10 and perspective is something I like to be able to manipulate in my images.

Oh yea, and no 1080p60, or mic socket, or headphone socket, or focus peaking or... I'm sure you get the idea.

Now I'm not saying all (or any) of this matters to you, just pointing out its wrong to claim in absolute terms that your kit is better than a RX10.

marike6
Senior MemberPosts: 5,070Gear list
Depends...
In reply to larsbc, Oct 20, 2013

larsbc wrote:

marike6 wrote:

$1400 buys a lot of good primes and a decent large sensor camera. YMMV.

I don't have any interest in the RX10 *but* I gotta say, it's a decent value proposition. For $1400, what decent large sensor camera (with an EVF) can you buy, and still have money left over for good primes that come close to covering the focal range of the RX10?

I don't think there are any mirrorless primes covering the range of the RX10.  The Olympus 75 f/1.8 is the longest mirrorless telephoto I can think of.

But for most hobbyists, unless you are shooting birds or shy critters telephoto work can mostly be done with a variable zoom.  Besides, for most applications that need a telephoto - wildlife, birds, some sports, etc - 200mm as with the RX10 is kind of short.

But $1400 buys a heck of a lot of great cameras. For example, I just bought a brand new Fujifilm X-E1 / 18-55 f/2.8-4 kit for $999. Fujinon lenses are a bit expensive, but extra $400 gets me a used 35 f/1.4 (or a 2/3rd of the price of a new 35 f/1.4) or over half the price of the excellent XF 55-200 3.5-4.8 OIS zoom.  So once I get the 55-200, I'll have 27-305mm covered with superb IQ in an extremely enjoyable camera.

$1400 also gets you a beautiful new GX7 kit with a 20 f/1.7. A GH3 with a kit lens. so now you have a more capable still camera and a professional level video camera.

You can also get an EM5 kit, and EM-1 body, or an EP-5 - VF4 kit.  And most m43 users, to which the OP is addressing with his post, already own some m43 lenses presumably.

$1400 also gets you a refurbished Nikon D600 or Canon 6D, and it gets you very close to a Sony A7 / 28-70 kit.

All of the above kits with mix of inexpensive kit lenses and a couple of primes can cover 90% of what most people shoot, but will offer more versatility in focal lengths, access to the huge variety of lenses including specialty lenses like 1:1 Macro, Fisheyes, tilt-shift, etc.  And crucially for some, all of the above cameras provide far better IQ particularly in low-light, high ISO shooting where the RX10 actually performs worse than first generation 12 mp m43 cameras like the Panasonic GF1.

I don't know many m43 users who want to go back to GF1 type high ISO images.  Then there is the issue of DOF control.

The RX100 is pocketable so it actually makes a nice second camera.  The RX10 is DSLR sized camera weighing in at close to 2 lbs, and it's extremely expensive.  I could see first time buyers maybe giving the RX10 a try, but I don't see it as a great backup or second body, but who knows.  Everybody has different needs and budgets.  Cheers.

 marike6's gear list:marike6's gear list
Nikon Coolpix P330 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH2 Nikon D800 Fujifilm X-E1 Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 ASPH +7 more
marike6
Senior MemberPosts: 5,070Gear list
Re: Jumping ship?
In reply to dougjgreen1, Oct 20, 2013

dougjgreen1 wrote:

larsbc wrote:

marike6 wrote:

$1400 buys a lot of good primes and a decent large sensor camera. YMMV.

I don't have any interest in the RX10 *but* I gotta say, it's a decent value proposition. For $1400, what decent large sensor camera (with an EVF) can you buy, and still have money left over for good primes that come close to covering the focal range of the RX10?

Here's what I bought:

E-PL5 plus VF-2 $450

14mm f2.5 $140

20mm f1.7 $300

40-150mm $140

Legacy 50mm f1.7 Konica $20

Legacy 200mm f3.5 Vivitar $30

Adapters: $20

Total cost: $1090 mix of new and mint condition used gear,

I would contend that my system is better in every way except for 28mm equivalent at the wide end. BTW, I addressed that with a 7-14mm lens that cost me a bit over $700, but gives me superb super-wide capability that is important to me and which I can't get in any possible way with an RX10. And that's the problem with a fixed lens camera. I also have 400mm equivalent at the long end (300mm using new AF gear) - With an interchangeable lens camera, I have faster, wider, and longer capability than I could get with an RX10. And when I want to pack light, I take my camera with just one of the pancake primes and a legacy 50mm f1.7 lens, and that light kit weighs much less than an RX10.

I agree with Doug, after all with the E-PL5 and 20 f/1.7 there are certain images, like shallow DOF portraiture, that are pretty much impossible on the RX10. Low-light work and shallow DOF portraits in natural light are going to be significantly nicer with the EPL-5 / 20 f/1.7 or say the Olympus 45 f/1.8.

The E-PL5 is not my favorite body because it's so small but the GX7 looks terrific. And a simple three lens kit on a small rangefinder type body sounds more interesting (and more fun) for most of the images.

 marike6's gear list:marike6's gear list
Nikon Coolpix P330 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH2 Nikon D800 Fujifilm X-E1 Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 ASPH +7 more
dougjgreen1
Senior MemberPosts: 2,200Gear list
I compared it to what I can buy as an alternative
In reply to larsbc, Oct 20, 2013

larsbc wrote:

dougjgreen1 wrote:

larsbc wrote:

marike6 wrote:

$1400 buys a lot of good primes and a decent large sensor camera. YMMV.

I don't have any interest in the RX10 *but* I gotta say, it's a decent value proposition. For $1400, what decent large sensor camera (with an EVF) can you buy, and still have money left over for good primes that come close to covering the focal range of the RX10?

Here's what I bought:

Okay, if you're talking about used gear, then I'm out of this discussion. But perhaps you should have mentioned that in your original assertion. I also don't think someone looking at an RX10 would be interested in manually focusing old glass.

And until I can get a used RX10, I can only compare the cost of a new one. And since I usually buy used gear, that's what I compared it to. Right now, a used RX10 probably costs the same as a new one.

And my point in comparing legacy lenses is that I use them when they make sense to use them. All the more reason I won't buy a camera that doesn't have interchangeable lenses as my primary camera.

The fact is, buying a fixed lens camera precludes all sorts of options that otherwise exist in the marketplace.

Notice, though, that I DIDN'T compare it to the $1300-1400 price point.  My mint used + new gear cost under $1100

 dougjgreen1's gear list:dougjgreen1's gear list
Olympus Stylus XZ-10 Olympus PEN E-PL5 Nikon 1 V2 Olympus E-M1 Olympus Zuiko Digital 11-22mm 1:2.8-3.5 +11 more
dougjgreen1
Senior MemberPosts: 2,200Gear list
Re: Jumping ship?
In reply to Dheorl, Oct 20, 2013

Dheorl wrote:

dougjgreen1 wrote:

larsbc wrote:

marike6 wrote:

$1400 buys a lot of good primes and a decent large sensor camera. YMMV.

I don't have any interest in the RX10 *but* I gotta say, it's a decent value proposition. For $1400, what decent large sensor camera (with an EVF) can you buy, and still have money left over for good primes that come close to covering the focal range of the RX10?

Here's what I bought:

E-PL5 plus VF-2 $450

14mm f2.5 $140

20mm f1.7 $300

40-150mm $140

Legacy 50mm f1.7 Konica $20

Legacy 200mm f3.5 Vivitar $30

Adapters: $20

Total cost: $1090 mix of new and mint condition used gear,

I would contend that my system is better in every way except for 28mm equivalent at the wide end.

For you maybe. For me it is lacking any kind of sealing, is slower at the long end where i find it more important (both in real terms and in equivalance) I imagine isn't as good ergonomically (obviously I can't tell this for chain having not handled the RX10 but I normally don't get on well with interchangeable lens soap bar shaped cameras).

On top of all that I can't imagine as a kit it is much, if any lighter, and takes up much more space, a big factor for me considering the amount of outdoor pursuits I like to do. Yes you can drop down to just one prime but then you have 1/200th of the focal range of the RX10 and perspective is something I like to be able to manipulate in my images.

Oh yea, and no 1080p60, or mic socket, or headphone socket, or focus peaking or... I'm sure you get the idea.

Now I'm not saying all (or any) of this matters to you, just pointing out its wrong to claim in absolute terms that your kit is better than a RX10.

Actually, it's NOT slower at the long end.  A 50mm f1.7 legacy lens is effectively a 100mm f1.7 lens on M4/3.  A 200mm f3.5 is effectively twice as long and effectively faster,

And the reason that my kit is lighter is that I only take with me the stuff I will use on a given shooting occasion.  What I most often carry with me is 1 or 2 pancake lenses, a tiny light tele zoom, and a 50mm f1.7.  That kit actually still is lighter than an RX10.

Yes it's not weather sealed - because I don't care for it to be.  If I wanted weather sealed, I'd have paid $200 more for an OM-D EM-5, but I don't value it.  But if I DID value it, I easily could have bought weather sealed instead, for just a bit more.

I also don't need nor care about any video features, and I have no problem focusing my manual lenses without focus peaking.  If I wanted those features, I could also have bought them in Micro 4/3.

The idea I get is that I bought a far more flexible, powerful system, with higher IQ, for less money, in M4/3.

 dougjgreen1's gear list:dougjgreen1's gear list
Olympus Stylus XZ-10 Olympus PEN E-PL5 Nikon 1 V2 Olympus E-M1 Olympus Zuiko Digital 11-22mm 1:2.8-3.5 +11 more
dougjgreen1
Senior MemberPosts: 2,200Gear list
Re: Jumping ship?
In reply to marike6, Oct 20, 2013

marike6 wrote:

The E-PL5 is not my favorite body because it's so small but the GX7 looks terrific. And a simple three lens kit on a small rangefinder type body sounds more interesting (and more fun) for most of the images.

I bought the E-PL5 BECAUSE it's so small.  BTW, with the MCG-2 grip and the VF-2, it handles like a bigger camera.  I find the size of the RX10 to be it's major disadvantage.

 dougjgreen1's gear list:dougjgreen1's gear list
Olympus Stylus XZ-10 Olympus PEN E-PL5 Nikon 1 V2 Olympus E-M1 Olympus Zuiko Digital 11-22mm 1:2.8-3.5 +11 more
Dheorl
Senior MemberPosts: 2,600Gear list
Re: Jumping ship?
In reply to dougjgreen1, Oct 20, 2013

dougjgreen1 wrote:

Dheorl wrote:

dougjgreen1 wrote:

larsbc wrote:

marike6 wrote:

$1400 buys a lot of good primes and a decent large sensor camera. YMMV.

I don't have any interest in the RX10 *but* I gotta say, it's a decent value proposition. For $1400, what decent large sensor camera (with an EVF) can you buy, and still have money left over for good primes that come close to covering the focal range of the RX10?

Here's what I bought:

E-PL5 plus VF-2 $450

14mm f2.5 $140

20mm f1.7 $300

40-150mm $140

Legacy 50mm f1.7 Konica $20

Legacy 200mm f3.5 Vivitar $30

Adapters: $20

Total cost: $1090 mix of new and mint condition used gear,

I would contend that my system is better in every way except for 28mm equivalent at the wide end.

For you maybe. For me it is lacking any kind of sealing, is slower at the long end where i find it more important (both in real terms and in equivalance) I imagine isn't as good ergonomically (obviously I can't tell this for chain having not handled the RX10 but I normally don't get on well with interchangeable lens soap bar shaped cameras).

On top of all that I can't imagine as a kit it is much, if any lighter, and takes up much more space, a big factor for me considering the amount of outdoor pursuits I like to do. Yes you can drop down to just one prime but then you have 1/200th of the focal range of the RX10 and perspective is something I like to be able to manipulate in my images.

Oh yea, and no 1080p60, or mic socket, or headphone socket, or focus peaking or... I'm sure you get the idea.

Now I'm not saying all (or any) of this matters to you, just pointing out its wrong to claim in absolute terms that your kit is better than a RX10.

Actually, it's NOT slower at the long end. A 50mm f1.7 legacy lens is effectively a 100mm f1.7 lens on M4/3. A 200mm f3.5 is effectively twice as long and effectively faster,

And say i want to shoot at 200mm effective?

And the reason that my kit is lighter is that I only take with me the stuff I will use on a given shooting occasion. What I most often carry with me is 1 or 2 pancake lenses, a tiny light tele zoom, and a 50mm f1.7. That kit actually still is lighter than an RX10.

I'm not a fan of doing that tbh. I like to have at least 24-200mm covered with me when I go out shooting.

Yes it's not weather sealed - because I don't care for it to be. If I wanted weather sealed, I'd have paid $200 more for an OM-D EM-5, but I don't value it. But if I DID value it, I easily could have bought weather sealed instead, for just a bit more.

It wouldn't have been just a bit more though, because absolutely none of your lenses are weather sealed.

I also don't need nor care about any video features, and I have no problem focusing my manual lenses without focus peaking. If I wanted those features, I could also have bought them in Micro 4/3.

The idea I get is that I bought a far more flexible, powerful system, with higher IQ, for less money, in M4/3.

Which lacks a huge number of things I look for in a system. I understand not everyone has the same needs, I just also get fed up of people like you saying x system is better in every way.

dougjgreen1
Senior MemberPosts: 2,200Gear list
Re: Jumping ship?
In reply to Dheorl, Oct 20, 2013

Dheorl wrote:

dougjgreen1 wrote:

Dheorl wrote:

dougjgreen1 wrote:

larsbc wrote:

marike6 wrote:

$1400 buys a lot of good primes and a decent large sensor camera. YMMV.

I don't have any interest in the RX10 *but* I gotta say, it's a decent value proposition. For $1400, what decent large sensor camera (with an EVF) can you buy, and still have money left over for good primes that come close to covering the focal range of the RX10?

Here's what I bought:

E-PL5 plus VF-2 $450

14mm f2.5 $140

20mm f1.7 $300

40-150mm $140

Legacy 50mm f1.7 Konica $20

Legacy 200mm f3.5 Vivitar $30

Adapters: $20

Total cost: $1090 mix of new and mint condition used gear,

I would contend that my system is better in every way except for 28mm equivalent at the wide end.

For you maybe. For me it is lacking any kind of sealing, is slower at the long end where i find it more important (both in real terms and in equivalance) I imagine isn't as good ergonomically (obviously I can't tell this for chain having not handled the RX10 but I normally don't get on well with interchangeable lens soap bar shaped cameras).

On top of all that I can't imagine as a kit it is much, if any lighter, and takes up much more space, a big factor for me considering the amount of outdoor pursuits I like to do. Yes you can drop down to just one prime but then you have 1/200th of the focal range of the RX10 and perspective is something I like to be able to manipulate in my images.

Oh yea, and no 1080p60, or mic socket, or headphone socket, or focus peaking or... I'm sure you get the idea.

Now I'm not saying all (or any) of this matters to you, just pointing out its wrong to claim in absolute terms that your kit is better than a RX10.

Actually, it's NOT slower at the long end. A 50mm f1.7 legacy lens is effectively a 100mm f1.7 lens on M4/3. A 200mm f3.5 is effectively twice as long and effectively faster,

And say i want to shoot at 200mm effective?

If I shoot 100mm, and crop it to the size of the RX10's sensor, I have 200mm f1.7 effective

Alternatively, I could just as easily use my slower 40-150mm zoom, if I don't need the faster aperture of the prime.

And the reason that my kit is lighter is that I only take with me the stuff I will use on a given shooting occasion. What I most often carry with me is 1 or 2 pancake lenses, a tiny light tele zoom, and a 50mm f1.7. That kit actually still is lighter than an RX10.

I'm not a fan of doing that tbh. I like to have at least 24-200mm covered with me when I go out shooting.

What if you needed 300mm, or 400mm covered? Or 15mm extreme wide covered? You'd be S-O-L with the RX10. I'm not. And unlike the RX10 owner, I can tailor what I carry with me. I'm not a fan of carrying one bulky heavy camera that still might not be able to cover the range I need.

Yes it's not weather sealed - because I don't care for it to be. If I wanted weather sealed, I'd have paid $200 more for an OM-D EM-5, but I don't value it. But if I DID value it, I easily could have bought weather sealed instead, for just a bit more.

It wouldn't have been just a bit more though, because absolutely none of your lenses are weather sealed.

Again, not something I value at all - BTW, I own a weather sealed DSLR and lens - I never use it in bad enough weather to be concerned about, and never did.

Honestly, most folks who actually NEED weather-sealed gear are buying Pro-level systems that costs many thousands of dollars, not a fixed-lens 1" sensor camera.

I also don't need nor care about any video features, and I have no problem focusing my manual lenses without focus peaking. If I wanted those features, I could also have bought them in Micro 4/3.

The idea I get is that I bought a far more flexible, powerful system, with higher IQ, for less money, in M4/3.

Which lacks a huge number of things I look for in a system. I understand not everyone has the same needs, I just also get fed up of people like you saying x system is better in every way.

It certainly lacks far fewer things than the RX10 does. And everything MY M4/3 system lacks, I can buy and add it to my system if I actually need them. You can't do that with the RX10 - it's a finite, fixed configuration.

You can't seriously be claiming that the entirety of the Micro 4/3 system, and every option that it offers, is not VASTLY more complete and flexible than the RX10 is. Because if that's your claim, you're delusional. The fact is, with an interchangeable lens SYSTEM that has a range of bodies and a range of lenses, you can tailor it to exactly what you personally need. I don't see how anyone could POSSIBLY do that with the RX10.

 dougjgreen1's gear list:dougjgreen1's gear list
Olympus Stylus XZ-10 Olympus PEN E-PL5 Nikon 1 V2 Olympus E-M1 Olympus Zuiko Digital 11-22mm 1:2.8-3.5 +11 more
Dheorl
Senior MemberPosts: 2,600Gear list
Re: Depends...
In reply to marike6, Oct 20, 2013

marike6 wrote:

larsbc wrote:

marike6 wrote:

$1400 buys a lot of good primes and a decent large sensor camera. YMMV.

I don't have any interest in the RX10 *but* I gotta say, it's a decent value proposition. For $1400, what decent large sensor camera (with an EVF) can you buy, and still have money left over for good primes that come close to covering the focal range of the RX10?

I don't think there are any mirrorless primes covering the range of the RX10. The Olympus 75 f/1.8 is the longest mirrorless telephoto I can think of.

But for most hobbyists, unless you are shooting birds or shy critters telephoto work can mostly be done with a variable zoom. Besides, for most applications that need a telephoto - wildlife, birds, some sports, etc - 200mm as with the RX10 is kind of short.

Nice range of lengths for landscapes and people though which is what i mainly shoot.

But $1400 buys a heck of a lot of great cameras. For example, I just bought a brand new Fujifilm X-E1 / 18-55 f/2.8-4 kit for $999. Fujinon lenses are a bit expensive, but extra $400 gets me a used 35 f/1.4 (or a 2/3rd of the price of a new 35 f/1.4) or over half the price of the excellent XF 55-200 3.5-4.8 OIS zoom. So once I get the 55-200, I'll have 27-305mm covered with superb IQ in an extremely enjoyable camera.

And enjoyably camera, with a kit bigger than the RX10 and also missing plenty of features which i find quite intriguing.

$1400 also gets you a beautiful new GX7 kit with a 20 f/1.7. A GH3 with a kit lens. so now you have a more capable still camera and a professional level video camera.

Have te  gh3... likely selling it to fund a RX10

You can also get an EM5 kit, and EM-1 body, or an EP-5 - VF4 kit. And most m43 users, to which the OP is addressing with his post, already own some m43 lenses presumably.

$1400 also gets you a refurbished Nikon D600 or Canon 6D, and it gets you very close to a Sony A7 / 28-70 kit.

All of the above kits with mix of inexpensive kit lenses and a couple of primes can cover 90% of what most people shoot, but will offer more versatility in focal lengths, access to the huge variety of lenses including specialty lenses like 1:1 Macro, Fisheyes, tilt-shift, etc. And crucially for some, all of the above cameras provide far better IQ particularly in low-light, high ISO shooting where the RX10 actually performs worse than first generation 12 mp m43 cameras like the Panasonic GF1.

I don't know many m43 users who want to go back to GF1 type high ISO images. Then there is the issue of DOF control.

You can still blur backgrounds enough that your subject stands out quite easily. Yes you can't absolute annihilate them into one big smudge but I've never much liked that look anyways. If you want to do that then by all means, dont get an RX10.

High ISO was never a reason for me upgrading my m43 cameras (and I started with a g2) so that factor really doesn't bother me much either. Again, some people are different, in which case don't buy the RX10.

The RX100 is pocketable so it actually makes a nice second camera. The RX10 is DSLR sized camera weighing in at close to 2 lbs, and it's extremely expensive. I could see first time buyers maybe giving the RX10 a try, but I don't see it as a great backup or second body, but who knows. Everybody has different needs and budgets. Cheers.

I'm having it as my first body tbh but hey ho.

I can see why a lot of people won't be interested in it, i just don't see why people refuse to see if fills a niche which until now has gone unfilled.

Dheorl
Senior MemberPosts: 2,600Gear list
Re: Jumping ship?
In reply to dougjgreen1, Oct 20, 2013

dougjgreen1 wrote:

Dheorl wrote:

dougjgreen1 wrote:

Dheorl wrote:

dougjgreen1 wrote:

larsbc wrote:

marike6 wrote:

$1400 buys a lot of good primes and a decent large sensor camera. YMMV.

I don't have any interest in the RX10 *but* I gotta say, it's a decent value proposition. For $1400, what decent large sensor camera (with an EVF) can you buy, and still have money left over for good primes that come close to covering the focal range of the RX10?

Here's what I bought:

E-PL5 plus VF-2 $450

14mm f2.5 $140

20mm f1.7 $300

40-150mm $140

Legacy 50mm f1.7 Konica $20

Legacy 200mm f3.5 Vivitar $30

Adapters: $20

Total cost: $1090 mix of new and mint condition used gear,

I would contend that my system is better in every way except for 28mm equivalent at the wide end.

For you maybe. For me it is lacking any kind of sealing, is slower at the long end where i find it more important (both in real terms and in equivalance) I imagine isn't as good ergonomically (obviously I can't tell this for chain having not handled the RX10 but I normally don't get on well with interchangeable lens soap bar shaped cameras).

On top of all that I can't imagine as a kit it is much, if any lighter, and takes up much more space, a big factor for me considering the amount of outdoor pursuits I like to do. Yes you can drop down to just one prime but then you have 1/200th of the focal range of the RX10 and perspective is something I like to be able to manipulate in my images.

Oh yea, and no 1080p60, or mic socket, or headphone socket, or focus peaking or... I'm sure you get the idea.

Now I'm not saying all (or any) of this matters to you, just pointing out its wrong to claim in absolute terms that your kit is better than a RX10.

Actually, it's NOT slower at the long end. A 50mm f1.7 legacy lens is effectively a 100mm f1.7 lens on M4/3. A 200mm f3.5 is effectively twice as long and effectively faster,

And say i want to shoot at 200mm effective?

If I shoot 100mm, and crop it to the size of the RX10's sensor, I have 200mm f1.7 effective

You'll end up with a 4m image unless I'm very much mistaken, good luck printing that to any appreciable size.

Alternatively, I could just as easily use my slower 40-150mm zoom, if I don't need the faster aperture of the prime.

And then have less DoF control.

And the reason that my kit is lighter is that I only take with me the stuff I will use on a given shooting occasion. What I most often carry with me is 1 or 2 pancake lenses, a tiny light tele zoom, and a 50mm f1.7. That kit actually still is lighter than an RX10.

I'm not a fan of doing that tbh. I like to have at least 24-200mm covered with me when I go out shooting.

What if you needed 300mm, or 400mm covered? Or 15mm extreme wide covered? You'd be S-O-L with the RX10. I'm not. And unlike the RX10 owner, I can tailor what I carry with me. I'm not a fan of carrying one bulky heavy camera that still might not be able to cover the range I need.

When I'm out and about i never find i need them, and with m43 it's not like I'd carry around a lens that long on the off chance i might.

Yes it's not weather sealed - because I don't care for it to be. If I wanted weather sealed, I'd have paid $200 more for an OM-D EM-5, but I don't value it. But if I DID value it, I easily could have bought weather sealed instead, for just a bit more.

It wouldn't have been just a bit more though, because absolutely none of your lenses are weather sealed.

Again, not something I value at all - BTW, I own a weather sealed DSLR and lens - I never use it in bad enough weather to be concerned about, and never did.

Good for you. I live in Scotland and have a waterproof jacket that costs £350 and still can't stand up to all the rain I've been in. I'm not saying I'd take a camera out in that, but I consider weather proofing to be a very important factor,

Honestly, most folks who actually NEED weather-sealed gear are buying Pro-level systems that costs many thousands of dollars, not a fixed-lens 1" sensor camera.

Really, cos i know plenty of hikers and mountaineers who need weather sealed gear if they actually want to be able to take pictures, and the only ones bothering to carry pro level gear are the ones who, funnily enough, are pros.

I also don't need nor care about any video features, and I have no problem focusing my manual lenses without focus peaking. If I wanted those features, I could also have bought them in Micro 4/3.

The idea I get is that I bought a far more flexible, powerful system, with higher IQ, for less money, in M4/3.

Which lacks a huge number of things I look for in a system. I understand not everyone has the same needs, I just also get fed up of people like you saying x system is better in every way.

It certainly lacks far fewer things than the RX10 does. And everything MY M4/3 system lacks, I can buy and add it to my system if I actually need them. You can't do that with the RX10 - it's a finite, fixed configuration.

Again, lacks things maybe for you. For what i like to do your system lacks a whole lot more. How can you not grasp this, I'm not saying the RX10 is better for you, I'm just saying it is potentially better for a lot of people. Myself included.

You can't seriously be claiming that the entirety of the Micro 4/3 system, and every option that it offers, is not VASTLY more complete and flexible than the RX10 is.

God only knows how you got that out of what i wrote.

Because if that's your claim, you're delusional. The fact is, with an interchangeable lens SYSTEM that has a range of bodies and a range of lenses, you can tailor it to exactly what you personally need. I don't see how anyone could POSSIBLY do that with the RX10.

But the m43 system can't be tailored to exactly what i personally need. I need a weather sealed kit that goes from 24-200mm and doesn't make a huge dent in my backpack or hand luggage. The closest thing is the EM5 with the 2 panny zooms, and that takes up considerably more space than an RX10, and requires me changing lenses when I'm out in inclement weather, which not having to do would be great.

dougjgreen1
Senior MemberPosts: 2,200Gear list
Re: Jumping ship?
In reply to Dheorl, Oct 20, 2013

Dheorl wrote:

But the m43 system can't be tailored to exactly what i personally need. I need a weather sealed kit that goes from 24-200mm and doesn't make a huge dent in my backpack or hand luggage. The closest thing is the EM5 with the 2 panny zooms, and that takes up considerably more space than an RX10, and requires me changing lenses when I'm out in inclement weather, which not having to do would be great.

Fine so you're the one person on earth for whom the RX10 is EXACTLY what you need.  The fact is, Most folks need something that's slightly different, and for ANYTHING that's the least bit different, you can't change the RX10 to meet what is needed.   Just about EVERYONE who shoots in inclement weather will occasionally need wider than 24mm, or longer than 200mm. Or faster than f2.8.  If you NEVER do, then go ahead and buy the RX10.

 dougjgreen1's gear list:dougjgreen1's gear list
Olympus Stylus XZ-10 Olympus PEN E-PL5 Nikon 1 V2 Olympus E-M1 Olympus Zuiko Digital 11-22mm 1:2.8-3.5 +11 more
dougjgreen1
Senior MemberPosts: 2,200Gear list
Fine, it fills a niche
In reply to Dheorl, Oct 20, 2013

Dheorl wrote:

I can see why a lot of people won't be interested in it, i just don't see why people refuse to see if fills a niche which until now has gone unfilled.

But it's a very small, even miniscule niche.

 dougjgreen1's gear list:dougjgreen1's gear list
Olympus Stylus XZ-10 Olympus PEN E-PL5 Nikon 1 V2 Olympus E-M1 Olympus Zuiko Digital 11-22mm 1:2.8-3.5 +11 more
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads