Professional equipment is not allowed in malls?

Started Oct 10, 2013 | Discussions
Wheatfield
Senior MemberPosts: 6,297
Like?
Re: Exactly
In reply to LeoGotCamera, Oct 11, 2013

LeoGotCamera wrote:

Guys,

sorry, but I don't agree with your logic. Property owner can impose any rules,

Correct, it's there property, they can impose any rules they like, as long as they aren't breaking any laws or forcing anyone to break any laws

but they need to make sense.

No, they don't actually need to make any sense.

We cannot just blindly accept whatever somebody with authority says to us.

Absolutely. If you disagree with the property owner's rules, don't blindly accept them, go somewhere else that is friendlier to your endeavors.

For example, if the owner of the mall puts a sign that people of certain race are not allowed inside the property - would you say "Hey, this is private property and owner has a right to do whatever they want"? Actually, malls had such signs 100 years ago.

See the part about breaking laws.

On the other hand there should be rules that make sense like regarding appearance (you cannot walkin naked) or carrying a weapon.

So you do agree that the property owner has a right to impose rules governing the use of his property. Now, what if the weapons rule doesn't make sense to someone who is an avid second amendment defender who has a carry permit? Does the no weapon rule still apply?

How about the walking naked rule to someone who is an avowed nudist? Does the must wear clothing rule still apply?

In my opinion common sense does not work in this case - why DSLR is prohibited and smartphone is allowed?

They are choosing their battles.

I seen plenty of people snapping their pictures and making videos with smartphones inside the mall and security was ok with them.

It doesn't have to make sense to you, it only has to make sense to the property owner.

-- hide signature --

Always remember, whenever you declare someone the dumbest person on Earth, someone else will stare at their screen intently, cross their arms and say ‘Challenge accepted’.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
brianric
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,196Gear list
Like?
Re: Professional equipment is not allowed in malls?
In reply to LeoGotCamera, Oct 11, 2013

LeoGotCamera wrote:

Guys,

First, I agree with all of you that full size tripod should not be allowed in malls as it creates a hazard for pedestrians. I also agree that the special lighting/models/elephants should not be allowed on the same grounds. Thanks for your responses that clarified this point.
Second, my main point is that I don't agree that DSLR (without any attachments) is not allowed while smartphone is allowed. In my opinion the modern smartphones provide quality similar to DSLR's and there should not be much difference in the eyes of security.

Third, if I use DSLR - it does not automatically mean that I use it for commercial purpose.
I guess this assumption came from the past when DSLRs were very expensive and only professional photographers could afford it. But it is not true anymore.

Fourth, I don't blindly agree with rules that do not make sense. 100 years ago stores had signs that people of certain race are not allowed inside.

Difference being is their are laws on the books, state and federal, that stops stores from allowing only certain races to shop. Show me the law that says that a privately owned business cannot ban the use of a DSLR on their property.

 brianric's gear list:brianric's gear list
Sony RX100 Nikon D700 Panasonic Lumix DMC-G1 Nikon Df Nikon D810 +10 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Henry Falkner
Forum ProPosts: 12,224Gear list
Like?
Re: Professional equipment is not allowed in malls?
In reply to LeoGotCamera, Oct 11, 2013

A mall is a public thorough-fare. A tripod is a stationary obstruction. In fact, since it is stationary, you should have been asked to pay a lease for the area it occupies.

You tried one on, and you did not succeed. Stop bleeting.

Henry

-- hide signature --
 Henry Falkner's gear list:Henry Falkner's gear list
Olympus SP-570 UZ Olympus SH-50 Olympus Stylus SH-1
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
joneil
Regular MemberPosts: 158
Like?
Re: Professional equipment is not allowed in malls?
In reply to Henry Falkner, Oct 11, 2013

Been there, done that.

I had this same experience years ago with my 4x5 view camera.   To make a long story short, malls are private property (seriously), and what the security guard told me was the tripod attracted their attention.    It is NOT the camera, it is the tripod.

Now let me repeat this - it is NOT THE CAMERA - it is the TRIPOD.

Got it?

I shot plenty of times in the Eaton Centre with my DSLR Nikons over the years with no problem, and in the above instance in the other mall, I even went back with my 4x5 to that other mall and took some shots.   No problem.    Just act like a tourist.  Seriously.

If you want to use a tripod for the purpose of being steady, this is how you do it.

Go to a railing.  For example, in the middle of the Eaton Centre is that big fountian.  You go up a couple floors,  keep the camera strap around your neck, rest the camera on top of the railing, aim the direction you want to shoot while keeping both hands on your camera while resting on the railing.  Then just fire away and take as many photos as you want.

Seriously, it works.   If i can do it it with my 4x5 film camera, and if I can do it with my Nikon, yeah, you can likely do it with your Canon.  

Most of these malls have bench seats right?  Sit down on the bench seat, set your camera beside you, photograph all you like.

Now, that wasn't hard, was it?

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Brian D. Schneider
Forum ProPosts: 16,691
Like?
It's not the camera...
In reply to LeoGotCamera, Oct 11, 2013

LeoGotCamera wrote:

Guys,

sorry, but I don't agree with your logic. Property owner can impose any rules, but they need to make sense. We cannot just blindly accept whatever somebody with authority says to us.

For example, if the owner of the mall puts a sign that people of certain race are not allowed inside the property - would you say "Hey, this is private property and owner has a right to do whatever they want"? Actually, malls had such signs 100 years ago.

On the other hand there should be rules that make sense like regarding appearance (you cannot walkin naked) or carrying a weapon.
In my opinion common sense does not work in this case - why DSLR is prohibited and smartphone is allowed? I seen plenty of people snapping their pictures and making videos with smartphones inside the mall and security was ok with them.

It's the tripod.

You're blocking other people and creating a hazard. Do your pictures hand held and you probably won't even be noticed.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
wombat661
Regular MemberPosts: 123
Like?
Re: Exactly
In reply to Wheatfield, Oct 12, 2013

There is fallacy in the logic that Malls or business are private properties, so the owners are allowed to do anything they want. That is the typical logic that if you own it, there should be no law that restrict what you can do.

There are different types of ownership. General properties like your house or cars or camera where everyone owns them, each person can do whatever they want in their house. Malls are not like house or cars. It is a limited resource to be shared by the community. Many towns have only one mall. All the people in the town go there to do business and support the mall. It does not make sense for everyone in a town to own a mall. There is simply not enough resource to allow for that. With that said, the person who happen to own the mall cannot just start creating rule. He/she cannot say only people with Nikons can come to the mall because there is a Nikon outlet there. The mall is treated like a public / private property. It falls in the region of both being a public property and private property. Because everyone need to use the mall, rules need to accommodate everyone. Example is owner of the mall need to install handicap access. They cannot simply say those customers can go elsewhere.

This pure theory of you can do whatever you want with your business gets more restricted the larger the business is, and the more impact the business has on a community. Now is a limited resource that needs to be shared in the community.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
seilerbird666
Senior MemberPosts: 1,101
Like?
Re: Professional equipment is not allowed in malls?
In reply to LeoGotCamera, Oct 12, 2013

Give it up Leo. No one agrees with your twisted logic.

-- hide signature --

My photos:
picasaweb.google.com/seilerbird

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
JTC111
Regular MemberPosts: 411Gear list
Like?
Re: Exactly
In reply to wombat661, Oct 12, 2013

wombat661 wrote:

There is fallacy in the logic that Malls or business are private properties, so the owners are allowed to do anything they want. That is the typical logic that if you own it, there should be no law that restrict what you can do.

There are different types of ownership. General properties like your house or cars or camera where everyone owns them, each person can do whatever they want in their house. Malls are not like house or cars. It is a limited resource to be shared by the community. Many towns have only one mall. All the people in the town go there to do business and support the mall. It does not make sense for everyone in a town to own a mall. There is simply not enough resource to allow for that. With that said, the person who happen to own the mall cannot just start creating rule. He/she cannot say only people with Nikons can come to the mall because there is a Nikon outlet there. The mall is treated like a public / private property. It falls in the region of both being a public property and private property. Because everyone need to use the mall, rules need to accommodate everyone. Example is owner of the mall need to install handicap access. They cannot simply say those customers can go elsewhere.

This pure theory of you can do whatever you want with your business gets more restricted the larger the business is, and the more impact the business has on a community. Now is a limited resource that needs to be shared in the community.

This has been addressed. The mall's rules must comply with all national, state, and local laws. The owner would also have to abide by whatever agreements were signed with the merchants. But outside of that, as long as they're doing that, they're free to make any rules they want.

As far as only allowing folks with Nikons to come to the mall, I know of no legal reason why a mall owner couldn't make that rule. It wouldn't be a smart rule which is likely why no one has done it so far as I know, but the number of stupid things we can legally do are plentiful.

If you're aware of a legal reason why such a rule could not be implemented, I'd be very interested in hearing it.

Your premise that "everyone needs to use the mall" deifies logic and reason. People are banned from malls all the time for various reasons, not all of them criminal. Once banned, those people find other ways to get the products they might have gotten at the mall.

The example you provide, wheelchair access, is a poor one. As mentioned, there are local, state, and federal laws that apply to commercial businesses regardless of the mall owner's feelings on those laws.

-- hide signature --

Jim Caputo
"Red hair and black leather, my favorite color scheme" - Richard Thompson

 JTC111's gear list:JTC111's gear list
Nikon D7100 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 55-200mm f/4-5.6G VR Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G VR Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 35mm f/1.8G Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D +5 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Wheatfield
Senior MemberPosts: 6,297
Like?
Re: Exactly
In reply to wombat661, Oct 12, 2013

wombat661 wrote:

There is fallacy in the logic that Malls or business are private properties, so the owners are allowed to do anything they want. That is the typical logic that if you own it, there should be no law that restrict what you can do.

Yes well, that is how it works. Ownership comes with privileges. Now this does not mean that I get to drive my Ferrari down main street at 250kph, but it does mean that I don't have to let you drive it.

There are different types of ownership. General properties like your house or cars or camera where everyone owns them, each person can do whatever they want in their house. Malls are not like house or cars. It is a limited resource to be shared by the community. Many towns have only one mall. All the people in the town go there to do business and support the mall. It does not make sense for everyone in a town to own a mall. There is simply not enough resource to allow for that. With that said, the person who happen to own the mall cannot just start creating rule. He/she cannot say only people with Nikons can come to the mall because there is a Nikon outlet there. The mall is treated like a public / private property. It falls in the region of both being a public property and private property. Because everyone need to use the mall, rules need to accommodate everyone. Example is owner of the mall need to install handicap access. They cannot simply say those customers can go elsewhere.

This pure theory of you can do whatever you want with your business gets more restricted the larger the business is, and the more impact the business has on a community. Now is a limited resource that needs to be shared in the community.

That's all well and good, but how it works is the person who owns the property gets to make the rules regarding what activities will or won't be allowed on his property, within the confines of the law.

-- hide signature --

Always remember, whenever you declare someone the dumbest person on Earth, someone else will stare at their screen intently, cross their arms and say ‘Challenge accepted’.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Paul B Jones
Senior MemberPosts: 1,112Gear list
Like?
News Flash
In reply to LeoGotCamera, Oct 12, 2013

World filled with rules.  Learn to pick your battles. Tripods in malls is not a hill to die on.

-- hide signature --
 Paul B Jones's gear list:Paul B Jones's gear list
Canon EOS 7D Canon EOS-1D Mark IV Canon EOS-1D X Canon EF 400mm f/4.0 DO IS USM Canon EF 800mm f/5.6L IS USM +6 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Dylan Johnson
Regular MemberPosts: 143Gear list
Like?
Re: Professional equipment is not allowed in malls?
In reply to LeoGotCamera, Oct 12, 2013

As a photographer AND security guard, I have some answers for you.

First as people mentioned, photography gear can be a hazard. Tripods, light stands, cords, etc can all just be an accident waiting to happen. That stuff isn't allowed for safety reasons unless for uses permited through a permit.

Secondly, as security, we are there to protect the property and patrons on the property. When security sees a camera, their first thought isn't photography, it's privacy and safety. That person could be taking pictures of children or They could also be staking out a store to rob. Big cameras also have a tendency to make people uncomfortable, and a lot of times we have to tell them to stop because we get complaints from shoppers about it. There's a ton of different reasons for not letting photography equipment on site.

I'm a little more lenient though. I'll go over and ask them what they're taking pictures of and usually strike up a conversation about photography, and then politely inform them that they're going to have to put the camera away, even though I know they're not doing any harm.

Also as for the rules making sense, it's private property, they can make whatever rules they want as long as they aren't breaking any in the process.

Hope that helps answer some of your questions.
--
Canon 50d gripped, 70-200 f2.8L IS USM, 50mm f1.8, 18-55 f3.5-5.6, 430ex II, Carry Speed FS Pro Sling Strap

 Dylan Johnson's gear list:Dylan Johnson's gear list
Canon EOS 50D Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS II Sigma 18-35mm F1.8 DC HSM
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Camediadude
Regular MemberPosts: 330
Like?
Re: Exactly
In reply to LeoGotCamera, Oct 12, 2013

LeoGotCamera wrote:

Guys,

sorry, but I don't agree with your logic. Property owner can impose any rules, but they need to make sense. We cannot just blindly accept whatever somebody with authority says to us.

For example, if the owner of the mall puts a sign that people of certain race are not allowed inside the property - would you say "Hey, this is private property and owner has a right to do whatever they want"? Actually, malls had such signs 100 years ago.

On the other hand there should be rules that make sense like regarding appearance (you cannot walkin naked) or carrying a weapon.
In my opinion common sense does not work in this case - why DSLR is prohibited and smartphone is allowed? I seen plenty of people snapping their pictures and making videos with smartphones inside the mall and security was ok with them.

You make some points, and I agree with you in ways. Rules must be just! We have an obligation to refuse, fight against, avoid or debate against those rules which we deem to be unjust, depending on each case, I strongly believe that.

It does make me a bit sad though, when I think about recent events ...

I sure do wish that the Islamist group al-Shabaab had respected the "no weapons" rule in the Westgate shopping mall in Nairobi, Kenya before proceeding to enter and viciously torture and destroy innocent men, women and children who did not happen to share their extremist beliefs.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
cutterpup
Regular MemberPosts: 488
Like?
Re: Exactly
In reply to Camediadude, Oct 12, 2013

Camediadude wrote:

You make some points, and I agree with you in ways. Rules must be just! We have an obligation to refuse, fight against, avoid or debate against those rules which we deem to be unjust, depending on each case, I strongly believe that.

Rules DO NOT have to be just.  Laws have to be.  Rules only have to be written in such a way that they do not defy the laws.

If you disagree with the rules governing a private venue then your only recourse is to avoid said venue.  There are ways to advocate for getting the rules changed.  But to refuse to follow them will only result in your being asked to no longer visit that venue.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
JTC111
Regular MemberPosts: 411Gear list
Like?
Re: Exactly
In reply to Camediadude, Oct 12, 2013

Camediadude wrote:

Rules must be just! We have an obligation to refuse, fight against, avoid or debate against those rules which we deem to be unjust, depending on each case, I strongly believe that.

So you won't mind if, for several days this week, I spend a few hours at your house breaking whatever rules you have?  Or does that only work when it's YOU breaking someone else's rules?  And who gets to decide what rules are just and what rules are not just?  You?  The OP?  What happens when you think a rule is unjust and the vast majority of the people disagree with you?  For example.... oh, I don't know.... let's say the right of a mall owner to set rules for his property as long as they are within the boundaries of the law?

-- hide signature --

Jim Caputo
"Red hair and black leather, my favorite color scheme" - Richard Thompson

 JTC111's gear list:JTC111's gear list
Nikon D7100 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 55-200mm f/4-5.6G VR Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G VR Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 35mm f/1.8G Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D +5 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
pierre1
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,512Gear list
Like?
I called Toronto Eaton Centre
In reply to LeoGotCamera, Oct 12, 2013

LeoGotCamera wrote:

- got approached by the security guard. He told me that the use of professional camera equipment is not allowed inside the mall and in order to use it I need to get a permit from the mall office. Went to the office and was told that the permit cannot be issued on the spot - I need to fill some kind of form and it can take up to 2 weeks to get approval. WTF?

Leo

Just called Toronto Eaton Centre Guest Services and I was informed that within the mall's policy there is absolutely no problem whatsoever with visitors using dslrs with professional lenses as long as you're not pointing directly into shops. However for safety purposes and other you do have to make arrangements if you plan to set up a tripod.

Seems reasonable enough to me !

PierreD

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8450532@N04/

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Wheatfield
Senior MemberPosts: 6,297
Like?
Re: Professional equipment is not allowed in malls?
In reply to Dylan Johnson, Oct 12, 2013

CaptiVision Photography wrote:

As a photographer AND security guard, I have some answers for you.

First as people mentioned, photography gear can be a hazard. Tripods, light stands, cords, etc can all just be an accident waiting to happen. That stuff isn't allowed for safety reasons unless for uses permited through a permit.

Secondly, as security, we are there to protect the property and patrons on the property. When security sees a camera, their first thought isn't photography, it's privacy and safety. That person could be taking pictures of children or They could also be staking out a store to rob.

Really? As a photographer you are falling for that tired old nag?

1: What is the harm in photographing children. Please be specific regarding exactly how a child is harmed by being photographed?

2: If a person is scoping a place out to burglarize, bomb or any other malicious act, wouldn't logic dictate that said person is going to attempt to be stealthy so as not to draw attention to themselves?

I can see a brain dead security guard who is too dumb to work at McDonalds falling for it, but a photographer?

Really?

Big cameras also have a tendency to make people uncomfortable, and a lot of times we have to tell them to stop because we get complaints from shoppers about it.

This is a logical reason.

-- hide signature --

Always remember, whenever you declare someone the dumbest person on Earth, someone else will stare at their screen intently, cross their arms and say ‘Challenge accepted’.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
ABA DABA
Senior MemberPosts: 2,971
Like?
Re: Professional equipment is not allowed in malls?
In reply to LeoGotCamera, Oct 12, 2013

OK put the shoe on your foot and your private property. What would you do if I came on your property without permission and started to set up my gear. DUH,DUH,

-- hide signature --

ABA DABA

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Craig Gillette
Veteran MemberPosts: 8,761
Like?
Re: Professional equipment is not allowed in malls?
In reply to Dylan Johnson, Oct 12, 2013

"The guerrilla must move amongst the people as a fish swims in the sea."

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Dylan Johnson
Regular MemberPosts: 143Gear list
Like?
Re: Professional equipment is not allowed in malls?
In reply to Wheatfield, Oct 12, 2013

CaptiVision Photography wrote:

As a photographer AND security guard, I have some answers for you.

First as people mentioned, photography gear can be a hazard. Tripods, light stands, cords, etc can all just be an accident waiting to happen. That stuff isn't allowed for safety reasons unless for uses permited through a permit.

Secondly, as security, we are there to protect the property and patrons on the property. When security sees a camera, their first thought isn't photography, it's privacy and safety. That person could be taking pictures of children or They could also be staking out a store to rob.

Really? As a photographer you are falling for that tired old nag?

1: What is the harm in photographing children. Please be specific regarding exactly how a child is harmed by being photographed?

2: If a person is scoping a place out to burglarize, bomb or any other malicious act, wouldn't logic dictate that said person is going to attempt to be stealthy so as not to draw attention to themselves?

I can see a brain dead security guard who is too dumb to work at McDonalds falling for it, but a photographer?

Really?

Big cameras also have a tendency to make people uncomfortable, and a lot of times we have to tell them to stop because we get complaints from shoppers about it.

This is a logical reason.

-- hide signature --

Always remember, whenever you declare someone the dumbest person on Earth, someone else will stare at their screen intently, cross their arms and say ‘Challenge accepted’.

So if you and your 6 year old daughter are out shopping and there's someone with a big camera following you around taking pictures of your daughter, you would be perfectly fine with that? Who knows where these pictures are ending up? You don't know if that person is a pediphile or not. That's why security has to take those precautions.

And there's no denying that photographic equipment can and does pose a hazard to people around you. Whether if your fault or theirs, isn't it better to just prevent an accident in the first place?
--
Canon 50d gripped, 70-200 f2.8L IS USM, 50mm f1.8, 18-55 f3.5-5.6, 430ex II, Carry Speed FS Pro Sling Strap

 Dylan Johnson's gear list:Dylan Johnson's gear list
Canon EOS 50D Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS II Sigma 18-35mm F1.8 DC HSM
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Dylan Johnson
Regular MemberPosts: 143Gear list
Like?
Re: Professional equipment is not allowed in malls?
In reply to Wheatfield, Oct 12, 2013

CaptiVision Photography wrote:

As a photographer AND security guard, I have some answers for you.

First as people mentioned, photography gear can be a hazard. Tripods, light stands, cords, etc can all just be an accident waiting to happen. That stuff isn't allowed for safety reasons unless for uses permited through a permit.

Secondly, as security, we are there to protect the property and patrons on the property. When security sees a camera, their first thought isn't photography, it's privacy and safety. That person could be taking pictures of children or They could also be staking out a store to rob.

Really? As a photographer you are falling for that tired old nag?

1: What is the harm in photographing children. Please be specific regarding exactly how a child is harmed by being photographed?

2: If a person is scoping a place out to burglarize, bomb or any other malicious act, wouldn't logic dictate that said person is going to attempt to be stealthy so as not to draw attention to themselves?

I can see a brain dead security guard who is too dumb to work at McDonalds falling for it, but a photographer?

Really?

Big cameras also have a tendency to make people uncomfortable, and a lot of times we have to tell them to stop because we get complaints from shoppers about it.

This is a logical reason.

-- hide signature --

Always remember, whenever you declare someone the dumbest person on Earth, someone else will stare at their screen intently, cross their arms and say ‘Challenge accepted’.

Logic to you and logic to someone else can differ very much.
--
Canon 50d gripped, 70-200 f2.8L IS USM, 50mm f1.8, 18-55 f3.5-5.6, 430ex II, Carry Speed FS Pro Sling Strap

 Dylan Johnson's gear list:Dylan Johnson's gear list
Canon EOS 50D Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS II Sigma 18-35mm F1.8 DC HSM
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads