Professional equipment is not allowed in malls?

Started 9 months ago | Discussions
pavi1
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,830Gear list
Like?
Re: Exactly
In reply to LeoGotCamera, 9 months ago

LeoGotCamera wrote:

Guys,

sorry, but I don't agree with your logic. Property owner can impose any rules, but they need to make sense. We cannot just blindly accept whatever somebody with authority says to us.

You could not be more wrong if you tried. I can make any rules I wish on my property as long as the rules do not require you to break a law.

-- hide signature --

Everything happens for a reason. #1 reason: poor planning
WSSA #44

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
JamesMortimer
Senior MemberPosts: 1,492
Like?
Re: Exactly
In reply to pavi1, 9 months ago

pavi1 wrote:

LeoGotCamera wrote:

Guys,

sorry, but I don't agree with your logic. Property owner can impose any rules, but they need to make sense. We cannot just blindly accept whatever somebody with authority says to us.

You could not be more wrong if you tried. I can make any rules I wish on my property as long as the rules do not require you to break a law.

-- hide signature --

Everything happens for a reason. #1 reason: poor planning
WSSA #44

Exactly.

If it ever becomes illegal to discriminate against "professional" camera owners then they would be breaking the law to make such a ruling.

But, like you said, providing they don't break existing laws, they can specify any entry requirements they wish - don't like them? then don't enter.

I'm just waiting for our local mall's "nude day" !!  

(Only nudes allowed in)

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
JamesMortimer
Senior MemberPosts: 1,492
Like?
Re: who's out of touch with reality?
In reply to tko, 9 months ago

tko wrote:

This is a standard rule that will be enforced in just about any mall or private space. It's their property. They don't want any commercial use, they don't want people blocking space with tripods and models and lighting for an excessive amount of time. They're in the business to get people to buy stuff, not provide backdrops for photographers for free.

Why was it a really bad experience? You know you need a permit to set up a tripod on NYC streets (or at least a few years ago.) Many parks and stuff. This shouldn't be a shock.

LeoGotCamera wrote:

Had really bad experience with trying to film a friend using my Canon 60D camera (with the lense without a red circle) at the Eaton Center in downtown Toronto. When I was trying to setup a tripod - got approached by the security guard. He told me that the use of professional camera equipment is not allowed inside the mall and in order to use it I need to get a permit from the mall office. Went to the office and was told that the permit cannot be issued on the spot - I need to fill some kind of form and it can take up to 2 weeks to get approval. WTF?

What is interesting - filming with smartphone is allowed as long as it is not attached to professional looking tripod. If I use small camera tripod - it is ok to film with smartphone.
So, my question - do you think it is fair? Is there much difference in Canon 60D quality vs iPhone 5s camera quality that makes my 60D camera banned from the usage in the mall? Or the mall guys are completely out of touch from reality?

Leo

Now that bit is something to complain about - restrictions in public open spaces!

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
DWMurf
Senior MemberPosts: 1,027Gear list
Like?
Re: Professional equipment is not allowed in malls?
In reply to LeoGotCamera, 9 months ago

I've been stopped twice from taking pictures using a compact NEX camera, no flash, no tripod. The first time was in a shopping mall where I was told by two security guards together that I needed to get permission from management. The second time was in a supermarket where I was stopped by the manager who told me I had to get permission from corporate management.

Both times I was just passing the time while waiting for my family to finish shopping which is what I explained in each case. As surprising as it was to me, I realized that I am on privately owned property and they can set their own rules, so I respectfully responded and shut off my camera.

But I don't know the reasoning behind their concerns in my case. I image that someone watching the security cameras spotted me in each case and automatically responded according to the company policy.

Of course with the prevalence of smartphones these days, it would be impossible to enforce their rules completely.

-- hide signature --

David

 DWMurf's gear list:DWMurf's gear list
Corel PaintShop Pro X4 Utltimate Sony Cyber-shot DSC-HX30V Sony Alpha NEX-3N Sony E 16-50mm F3.5-5.6 PZ OSS Rokinon 8mm f/2.8 UMC Aspherical Fisheye +17 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
sdribetahi
Contributing MemberPosts: 819
Like?
Re: Professional equipment is not allowed in malls?
In reply to LeoGotCamera, 9 months ago

LeoGotCamera wrote:

sdribetahi wrote:

The fact that this is shocking to you is shocking to me. Where does it stop, a tripod, maybe a light, maybe 3 lights, maybe reflectors?

I did not have any lights and did not have reflectors. To answer your next question - I did not have actresses and I did not have rented elephant with me at that time.
I agree that it should stop somewhere, but I don't agree that it should stops before reaching DSLR.

Well it's unfortunate that nobody asked you. I think it should stop before planting a tripod in the ground. But hey, neither of us own the mall, so our opinions mean squat. How about if you set your tripod up in the middle of grocery store isle, or right in front of the mall elevator? Humans are incredibly dumb creatures. If you don't nip it in the bud, stupidity will rear it's ugly head. What is common sense to you would never cross 33% of the populations mind.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
JTC111
Regular MemberPosts: 410Gear list
Like?
Re: Exactly
In reply to LeoGotCamera, 9 months ago

LeoGotCamera wrote:

Guys,

sorry, but I don't agree with your logic. Property owner can impose any rules, but they need to make sense.

Why do they need to make sense?  I own a house.  I can make any rule in my house as long as it doesn't break any laws.

We cannot just blindly accept whatever somebody with authority says to us.

The situation you described has nothing to do with authority.  It has to do with property ownership.  The security guard is the owner's paid representative enforcing the rules the owner put in place for his property.

For example, if the owner of the mall puts a sign that people of certain race are not allowed inside the property - would you say "Hey, this is private property and owner has a right to do whatever they want"? Actually, malls had such signs 100 years ago.

No, you'd say, "Hey, you're breaking the law."  And then you'd report them.  There's no law that says the mall has to allow you the freedom to set up a tripod and use your camera on their property.

On the other hand there should be rules that make sense like regarding appearance (you cannot walkin naked) or carrying a weapon.
In my opinion common sense does not work in this case - why DSLR is prohibited and smartphone is allowed? I seen plenty of people snapping their pictures and making videos with smartphones inside the mall and security was ok with them.

This has nothing to do with common sense, besides, common sense is a subjective term.  For instance, I think it's common sense to understand that mall owners has the right to decide what activities are or are not permitted on their property.

-- hide signature --

Jim Caputo
"Red hair and black leather, my favorite color scheme" - Richard Thompson

 JTC111's gear list:JTC111's gear list
Nikon D7100 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 55-200mm f/4-5.6G VR Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G VR Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 35mm f/1.8G Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D +5 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
happysnapper64
Senior MemberPosts: 4,117Gear list
Like?
Re: Exactly
In reply to LeoGotCamera, 9 months ago

LeoGotCamera wrote:

Guys,

sorry, but I don't agree with your logic. Property owner can impose any rules, but they need to make sense. We cannot just blindly accept whatever somebody with authority says to us.

For example, if the owner of the mall puts a sign that people of certain race are not allowed inside the property - would you say "Hey, this is private property and owner has a right to do whatever they want"? Actually, malls had such signs 100 years ago.

On the other hand there should be rules that make sense like regarding appearance (you cannot walkin naked) or carrying a weapon.
In my opinion common sense does not work in this case - why DSLR is prohibited and smartphone is allowed? I seen plenty of people snapping their pictures and making videos with smartphones inside the mall and security was ok with them.

I recently went to a large mall in Manchester UK to try out my new fish-eye lens. I do not usually shoot this type of photography, but it was a good place to test the lens out. reading all the threads about photographing children, I was apprehensive, as there were children there. The main attraction is a large indoor fountain, which shoots a jet of water about 80' in the air. I managed to get a dozen or so shots, being careful to avoid getting children in particular in the frame. Another dozen shots of a beautiful 1970's ish Mercedes, which was on exhibition in the mall, plus half a dozen shots of a rather grand large marble stairway. Not a soul said a thing. A few looked when I was photographing the fountain, but it seemed more out of interest than anything. I was using a 7D with the fish-eye, & didn't try to hide the fact I was taking pictures.

The "funny" thing about this, is that the same mall has had a rule about not allowing "hoodies" to wear their hoods up inside the premises, a rule that was enforced a year or two ago, when a famous football [soccer] star, who played for one of the big EPL clubs, was told to put the hood down or leave. No allowance was made because of who he was. He apparently complied with the rule.

-- hide signature --

lee uk.
There are old pilots, & there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots.
"I'm so fast, when I turn off the light, i'm in bed before the room gets dark" The great Mohamed Ali.

 happysnapper64's gear list:happysnapper64's gear list
Canon EOS 7D Canon EOS 60D Olympus PEN E-PL5 Canon EF-S 15-85mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM Canon EF-S 55-250mm f/4-5.6 IS +8 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Mirrorless Crusader
Regular MemberPosts: 263Gear list
Like?
THIS is why you use MIRRORLESS!
In reply to LeoGotCamera, 9 months ago
No text.
 Mirrorless Crusader's gear list:Mirrorless Crusader's gear list
Olympus Body Cap Lens 15mm F8.0
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
JTC111
Regular MemberPosts: 410Gear list
Like?
Re: Professional equipment is not allowed in malls?
In reply to LeoGotCamera, 9 months ago

LeoGotCamera wrote:

In my opinion the modern smartphones provide quality similar to DSLR's....

Dude, you should have said that to the security guard.  Then he'd have known you were just some Joe Blow with entitlement issues who couldn't possibly be making any money with his camera.

Fourth, I don't blindly agree with rules that do not make sense. 100 years ago stores had signs that people of certain race are not allowed inside.

You're in my house, you follow my rules or you get out.  It baffles me that this far down this thread that simple concept still eludes you.

-- hide signature --

Jim Caputo
"Red hair and black leather, my favorite color scheme" - Richard Thompson

 JTC111's gear list:JTC111's gear list
Nikon D7100 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 55-200mm f/4-5.6G VR Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G VR Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 35mm f/1.8G Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D +5 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Mirrorless Crusader
Regular MemberPosts: 263Gear list
Like?
Re: Exactly
In reply to LeoGotCamera, 9 months ago

LeoGotCamera wrote:

Guys,

sorry, but I don't agree with your logic. Property owner can impose any rules, but they need to make sense. We cannot just blindly accept whatever somebody with authority says to us.

Then you can spend your time somewhere else. If you don't like the rules, petition for the mall to change them.

For example, if the owner of the mall puts a sign that people of certain race are not allowed inside the property - would you say "Hey, this is private property and owner has a right to do whatever they want"? Actually, malls had such signs 100 years ago. On the other hand there should be rules that make sense like regarding appearance (you cannot walkin naked) or carrying a weapon.

The mall is private property, but by being "open to the public" they have to comply with local, state, and federal rules. If there was a federal law banning discrimination between certain types of cameras. Of course that law doesn't fit your criteria of "making sense" which is why it doesn't exist. You can't choose what race you are, but you can choose any type of camera you want or none at all.

In my opinion common sense does not work in this case - why DSLR is prohibited and smartphone is allowed? I seen plenty of people snapping their pictures and making videos with smartphones inside the mall and security was ok with them.

Security has discretion to apply the rule as they see fit, regardless of whether it "makes sense," because there are no laws dictating what rules they can or cannot make with respect to cameras. Technically you are right about this specific case, but the reason for the subjective nature for the rule is that they don't big cameras being a distraction to people in the mall or creating a scene and a crowd.

 Mirrorless Crusader's gear list:Mirrorless Crusader's gear list
Olympus Body Cap Lens 15mm F8.0
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
SomebodyFamous
Regular MemberPosts: 324
Like?
Re: Professional equipment is not allowed in malls?
In reply to LeoGotCamera, 9 months ago

Malls don't have problems with people within boundaries. If you're causing complaints or obvious obstructions/hazards then they will talk to you and or remove you. One of those mirrorless cameras would produce far less reaction. In your case, the tripod did it.

I am replacing my camera system with most likely a Nikon 1 system. One of my reasons is that it's much less obtrusive.

-- hide signature --

I take photos for my own pleasure. I write books for my own pleasure too. If people buy them then fine. If not then I don't really care. The fun was in writing them. Income is just icing on top of the cake.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Mark B.
Forum ProPosts: 14,425
Like?
Re: Exactly
In reply to LeoGotCamera, 9 months ago

LeoGotCamera wrote:

Guys,

sorry, but I don't agree with your logic. Property owner can impose any rules, but they need to make sense. We cannot just blindly accept whatever somebody with authority says to us.

In this case it does make sense.  A tripod certainly is a tripping hazard, I totally agree that it shouldn't be allowed.  As for photographing in general, the owners are well within their rights to ban photo/video.  In some cases store owners/managers could be worried about competitors, in other cases it simply makes mall patrons nervous - particularly if there are minors around - when a stranger is pointing a camera.  Sorry if you don't agree, but them's the rules.

For example, if the owner of the mall puts a sign that people of certain race are not allowed inside the property - would you say "Hey, this is private property and owner has a right to do whatever they want"? Actually, malls had such signs 100 years ago.

That was 100 years ago.  There are now laws, at least here in the US, that do not allow discrimination on the basis of race.  They are, however, allowed to have rules that protect customers' privacy or disallow any activity that might otherwise spook away customers.  I'm certain the KKK would be asked to leave if members started parading around the mall with racist signs.

On the other hand there should be rules that make sense like regarding appearance (you cannot walkin naked) or carrying a weapon.
In my opinion common sense does not work in this case - why DSLR is prohibited and smartphone is allowed? I seen plenty of people snapping their pictures and making videos with smartphones inside the mall and security was ok with them.

You'll have to take it up with mall security.  It's true that DLSRs do seem to be unfairly discriminated against, but there's a stigma associated with a much larger camera.  In this case, however, I believe it had a lot more to do with setting up a tripod.

Mark

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
DWMurf
Senior MemberPosts: 1,027Gear list
Like?
Re: THIS is why you use MIRRORLESS!
In reply to Mirrorless Crusader, 9 months ago

That didn't help me if you read my post here.

-- hide signature --

David

 DWMurf's gear list:DWMurf's gear list
Corel PaintShop Pro X4 Utltimate Sony Cyber-shot DSC-HX30V Sony Alpha NEX-3N Sony E 16-50mm F3.5-5.6 PZ OSS Rokinon 8mm f/2.8 UMC Aspherical Fisheye +17 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
DWMurf
Senior MemberPosts: 1,027Gear list
Like?
Re: Professional equipment is not allowed in malls?
In reply to SomebodyFamous, 9 months ago

My compact NEX still was objectionable if you read my post here.

-- hide signature --

David

 DWMurf's gear list:DWMurf's gear list
Corel PaintShop Pro X4 Utltimate Sony Cyber-shot DSC-HX30V Sony Alpha NEX-3N Sony E 16-50mm F3.5-5.6 PZ OSS Rokinon 8mm f/2.8 UMC Aspherical Fisheye +17 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
donaldsc
Senior MemberPosts: 1,402
Like?
Re: Professional equipment is not allowed in malls?
In reply to LeoGotCamera, 9 months ago

LeoGotCamera wrote:

So, my question - do you think it is fair? Is there much difference in Canon 60D quality vs iPhone 5s camera quality that makes my 60D camera banned from the usage in the mall?

Leo

1) If you have to ask this question, you have no business owning a 60D.

2) He who owns the mall makes the rules - subject to anti-discrimination restrictions.

End of story.

-- hide signature --

Don

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
SomebodyFamous
Regular MemberPosts: 324
Like?
Re: Professional equipment is not allowed in malls?
In reply to DWMurf, 9 months ago

I think the difference is that people do comparison shopping on Amazon and snap pictures of products or scan barcodes so that they can identify them and check prices.

Where I work, we used to stop people from taking any form of photo but now we just don't unless they're using a camera or video camera in which case we do stop them. If it's a cellphone we don't. that seems to have become the acceptable standard. I wonder how the Sony remote lens would work like that. I can imagine a load of voyeurs using them.

-- hide signature --

I take photos for my own pleasure. I write books for my own pleasure too. If people buy them then fine. If not then I don't really care. The fun was in writing them. Income is just icing on top of the cake.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
tko
tko
Forum ProPosts: 10,079
Like?
of course, with the Nikon 1 you need a tripod
In reply to SomebodyFamous, 9 months ago

The nice thing about shooting FF is you seldom need a tripod. Of course, indoors w/a smaller camera you may need the tripod. Eliminating the purpose of the tiny camera.

How's the book sales going?

SomebodyFamous wrote:

Malls don't have problems with people within boundaries. If you're causing complaints or obvious obstructions/hazards then they will talk to you and or remove you. One of those mirrorless cameras would produce far less reaction. In your case, the tripod did it.

I am replacing my camera system with most likely a Nikon 1 system. One of my reasons is that it's much less obtrusive.

-- hide signature --

I take photos for my own pleasure. I write books for my own pleasure too. If people buy them then fine. If not then I don't really care. The fun was in writing them. Income is just icing on top of the cake.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
DWMurf
Senior MemberPosts: 1,027Gear list
Like?
Re: Professional equipment is not allowed in malls?
In reply to SomebodyFamous, 9 months ago

SomebodyFamous wrote:

I think the difference is that people do comparison shopping on Amazon and snap pictures of products or scan barcodes so that they can identify them and check prices.

Where I work, we used to stop people from taking any form of photo but now we just don't unless they're using a camera or video camera in which case we do stop them. If it's a cellphone we don't. that seems to have become the acceptable standard. I wonder how the Sony remote lens would work like that. I can imagine a load of voyeurs using them.

-- hide signature --

I take photos for my own pleasure. I write books for my own pleasure too. If people buy them then fine. If not then I don't really care. The fun was in writing them. Income is just icing on top of the cake.

I've done that myself, snap pictures of products and prices for major purchases that I was shopping around for, not necessarily for price comparison but for making the product selection. I used either a cellphone or pocket camera and never go stopped. It was easier than writing down all the information on paper.

-- hide signature --

David

 DWMurf's gear list:DWMurf's gear list
Corel PaintShop Pro X4 Utltimate Sony Cyber-shot DSC-HX30V Sony Alpha NEX-3N Sony E 16-50mm F3.5-5.6 PZ OSS Rokinon 8mm f/2.8 UMC Aspherical Fisheye +17 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Rexgig0
Senior MemberPosts: 1,537Gear list
Like?
Re: Exactly
In reply to LeoGotCamera, 9 months ago

LeoGotCamera wrote:

Guys,

sorry, but I don't agree with your logic. Property owner can impose any rules, but they need to make sense. We cannot just blindly accept whatever somebody with authority says to us.

House rules are not required to make sense, but it is likely they can quote reasons that do make sense, such as liability concerns (tripods can be a tripping hazard) and commercial property rights. (If the photography or videographer generates any money, whatsoever, for anyone, the owner of the property where the images are shot has a commercial interest.)

For example, if the owner of the mall puts a sign that people of certain race are not allowed inside the property - would you say "Hey, this is private property and owner has a right to do whatever they want"? Actually, malls had such signs 100 years ago.

Photographers and videographers, unlike racial/ethnic groups, are not a "protected" class of people!

On the other hand there should be rules that make sense like regarding appearance (you cannot walkin naked) or carrying a weapon.
In my opinion common sense does not work in this case - why DSLR is prohibited and smartphone is allowed? I seen plenty of people snapping their pictures and making videos with smartphones inside the mall and security was ok with them.

Once again, the house makes the rules.

-- hide signature --

I wear a badge and pistol, and, primarily with 7D cameras, with 10-22mm and 100mm Macro L lenses, shoot evidentiary images at night, which incorporates elements of portrait, macro, still life, landscape, architecture, PJ, and occasional action.

 Rexgig0's gear list:Rexgig0's gear list
Nikon Coolpix A Canon EOS-1D Mark II N Canon EOS 5D Canon EOS 40D Nikon D700 +24 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Ed B
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,808
Like?
Re: Not allowed to use flash makes perfect sense!
In reply to RhysM, 9 months ago

RhysM wrote:

Mike_PEAT wrote:

Jim Cassatt wrote:

A guard came up to me and said flash was not allowed because it might cause damage to the artwork.

A flash emits the full spectrum, infrared through ultraviolet.

You might think, "what damage can one flash do?" Maybe not one, but if EVERYBODY was allowed, then definitely.

Also you're disturbing the other patrons! If only the idiots at a sporting event can be educated!

There was an experiment done, forget where, but they subjected various artwork to something like 10,000 flashes from a hot shoe mounted flashgun and analysed the paintings afterwards with all sorts of fancy gadgets and meters and found there was no evidence of any degradation.

If you were displaying a painting worth a million dollars would you want to take a chance?

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads