Would you buy X-Trans or Bayer

Started 11 months ago | Polls
MayaTlab0
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Re: Would you buy X-Trans or Bayer
In reply to Red5TX, 11 months ago

Red5TX wrote:

Just curious. Let's say Fuji released the next generation of X-P1 and X-E1 with a choice of sensors and the purchaser could choose Bayer or X-Trans. Same price. Which would you select?

I'd pick an AA-less bayer sensor. Right now the X-trans isn't bad, but it's making me loose time importing in CO and then exporting as 16 bit TIFF in LR (which I find has much better tonal correction tools).

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BillyInya
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Re: Would you buy X-Trans or Bayer
In reply to deednets, 11 months ago

deednets wrote:

Well, this only shows you how different people's opinions can be??? I have used Nikons and Canon cameras, the last ones D300s, D800 and the 5DMKII. When I switched to the Fuji, I thought initially to just use the camera for travel, but the files when opened were like I had removed the veil from the lens, there was a clarity, that I still find unbelievable, my initial idea was that this was probably due to the X-Trans Sensor ... Have compared the Fuji files lately to the Canon 6D and still find the Fuji would be my preference!

But! I see you use Lightroom, I use Capture One 7 Pro ... would have been nicer if the sensors algorithms were more universally useable, but maybe that's part of what I like about it!

... crop from a photo taken last week, have a look at 100% obviously not to your liking, but I personally find that the files are amongst the cleanest I have on my computer ... just my opinion ok, I like the skin tones and the sharpness level:

Cheers

Deed

I tend to agree. The x-Trans sensor is capable of ridiculously good IQ and is constantly compared to the best from high end full frame cams.

The old Bayer sensor is not in the race IMO. But granted many manufactures are desperately squeezing more life out of the 'ole girl I guess because they are locked in to the Bayer pattern and can't go in any different direction without insane costs.

Personally I will never go back to the old Bayer pattern now we've turned the corner, but I fully appreciate why some would not welcome the superior technology. For these people it is good they can happily choose a Bayer pattern sensor camera and stay happy.

And this is what it's all about, finding and buying something you will be happy with.

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AlbertInFrance
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Re: Would you buy X-Trans or Bayer
In reply to Red5TX, 11 months ago

Red5TX wrote:

Wheatfield wrote:

The OP forgot one option, that being "couldn't give a damn". The type of sensor array isn't on my list of what I look for in a camera at all.

Wheatfield will just take whichever version Fuji happens to ship him.

Actually, I probably would as well. I bought my X-E1 without taking any notice at all of the CFA design. For my real-world use I very much doubt if Bayer v X-Trans would make a scrap of difference.

(Please take this for the lighthearted ribbing it's intended to be.)

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Davidgilmour
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Re: Would you buy X-Trans or Bayer
In reply to Todd3608, 11 months ago

Todd3608 wrote:

As long as you shoot RAW...Sony's JPEG engine sucks compared to Fuji.

I agree with you, didn't like the jpeg colors on my Nex-5. But still, dpreview gave amazing ratings to the JPEG output on the RX1 in their review, how come?

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Wheatfield
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Re: Would you buy X-Trans or Bayer
In reply to Red5TX, 11 months ago

Red5TX wrote:

Wheatfield wrote:

The OP forgot one option, that being "couldn't give a damn". The type of sensor array isn't on my list of what I look for in a camera at all.

Wheatfield will just take whichever version Fuji happens to ship him.

(Please take this for the lighthearted ribbing it's intended to be.)

Why not, they all take pictures, and the type of sensor is far less important than the lens quality or the camera's ergonomics.

For those of us who take pictures of things other than test charts and who don't invent "tests" that are designed to make the camera fail so they can whine about it on internet forums, there isn't much to say between one 16mp camera and another. My Pentax K5 takes excellent pictures, My Fuji X-Pro1 takes equally excellent pictures.

Why should I care about the technology under the hood as long as it works?

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uniball
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Re: Would you buy X-Trans or Bayer
In reply to NTNphoto, 11 months ago

NTNphoto wrote:

Honestly after using the X-E1 since December...a Bayer sensor. Ergonomic wise I love the camera. I like using it, the build quality, the options for adapting other lenses, but I have come to the opinion that I really and truly do not enjoy working with X trans raw files. Bayer files are easier and cleaner to work with. Yes I can use something other than Photoshop or Lightroom to edit, but my entire Nikon workflow is routed through those programs and the x trans fuji is not so good as to change my entire workflow.

I would sell my X-E1 for a Bayer version almost immediately. I don't want a X-A1 because of the cheaper build and no evf.

Odd logic. Of the 2 systems I know well (30 years with Nikon), ACR renders are not that great on either Nikon or Fuji. Changing your workflow would benefit you on both systems.

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dennis tennis
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Re: Would you buy X-Trans or Bayer
In reply to Red5TX, 11 months ago

Red5TX wrote:

dennis tennis wrote:

Adorama has shipped my X-A1 so I'll soon have both. Why does it have to be one or the other?

If you own black dress shoes, you can't own brown dress shoes?

Not with an EVF, no.

Question was which sensor.  Question wasn't EVF or no EVF.

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sgoldswo
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Neither
In reply to Red5TX, 11 months ago

Just curious.  Let's say Fuji released the next generation of X-P1 and X-E1 with a choice of sensors and the purchaser could choose Bayer or X-Trans.  Same price.  Which would you select?

I would actively be considering selling all my fuji gear
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sgoldswo
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Re: Would you buy X-Trans or Bayer
In reply to NTNphoto, 11 months ago

As long as you shoot RAW...Sony's JPEG engine sucks compared to Fuji.

NTNphoto wrote:

To be honest I'm keeping an eye on things over at sony. Rumor has it their 24mp mirror less FF is going to be in the 1600 ballpark. If I can adapt my Leica lenses to it comfortably I'm selling the X-E1 and my 18-55.

I would imagine that the sensor in the Sony is quite similar to the excellent sony made sensor in my D600 in which case I'm pretty sold on the idea.

Ah yes I shoot mostly RAW which is why I have issues with the x trans. I will definitely agree that Fuji's jpeg engine is just about the best I've seen really. I guess what I would like to see is a Bayer fuji with the same jpeg engine so it would be the best of both worlds.

Why? It's easy to get great results from RAW
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mr moonlight
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Re: Would you buy X-Trans or Bayer
In reply to LaFonte, 11 months ago

LaFonte wrote:

mr moonlight wrote:

A Bayer with an AA filter has those halos and digital sharpening look.

Not necessary true for many advanced modern cameras. While you can see the softening and then re-sharpening in many small sensor PS, the modern APSC are far from that.

Over all it's all very minor and nit picky, but it's still there even with modern FF sensors. It just depends on how much of a pixel peeper you are. In practice it really doesn't make much of a difference, but given the choice, I'd skip the AA filter. In the end, sensor tech is good enough that there's much more important features to consider when deciding on what camera you buy.

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R Neuschul
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Re: Would you buy X-Trans or Bayer
In reply to BillyInya, 11 months ago

When Agfa shipped its early monochrome films some people loved them; others hated them.

When Kodak released Kodachrome over half a century ago some people loved it; others hated it.

When Fuji released Velvia some people loved it; others hated it.

All of those films and many others - and all of the different photo papers - had healthy market shares. Mostly because the market thrives on diversity - each of us wants something that approximates to our own desires and requirements.

Today's arguments about Bayer versus XTrans [or Foveon/Merill] are broadly similar: they're essentially pointless uber-tech arguments that have little to do with actually *using* a camera to make pictures. If you like the results from Xtrans and that sensor suits your needs then buy it. If you don't like it and it doesn't suit your needs then buy a Bayer or Merill camera.

Is there room in the market for Fuji to make cameras of more than one sensor type, and make a sufficient financial successes of them so that this would allow and support continuing development of the range? I suspect there probably is. Meanwhile let's not forget that the Fuji/Panasonic partnership is likely to result in new sensor types in commercial cameras in the near future, and that this may well mean Fuji and Panasonic will drop some or all of their existing sensors for newer sensors with yet another set of different characteristics. C'est la vie. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose!

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Asylum Photo
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Re: Would you buy X-Trans or Bayer
In reply to Red5TX, 11 months ago

Where's the "I don't really care" option? Both would do fine, but since they only offer the X-Trans in their bodies with viewfinders, that's my answer.

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Absolutic
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Re: Would you buy X-Trans or Bayer
In reply to Asylum Photo, 11 months ago

I am all Bayer now with x100 classic and xa1

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Buttons252
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Re: Would you buy X-Trans or Bayer
In reply to Red5TX, 11 months ago

i voted for bayer without AA.  Based on the assumption that Xa1 and Xe1 have identical iq.

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hellocrowley
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Re: Would you buy X-Trans or Bayer
In reply to Buttons252, 11 months ago

Buttons252 wrote:

i voted for bayer without AA. Based on the assumption that Xa1 and Xe1 have identical iq.

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I thought XA1 had an AA filter? If so, I vote for Bayer with AA. Honestly after looking at images side by side I think the XA1 is smoother. Xtrans seems to be sharper but exhibits false details at close inspection, and I frankly don't care about "sensor sharpness" anyway.

Objectively, the first advantage will be less CPU-intensive algorithm which leads to more responsiveness and faster focusing. The other advantage is Bayer RAW files will be supported virtually everywhere, from Windows to OSX, from Android to iOS.

Btw, the Bayer option should be much cheaper, not equally priced, since it'd require no customization from the supplier (currently Sony).

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DAndison
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Re: Would you buy X-Trans or Bayer
In reply to deednets, 11 months ago

deednets wrote:

NTNphoto wrote:

Honestly after using the X-E1 since December...a Bayer sensor. Ergonomic wise I love the camera. I like using it, the build quality, the options for adapting other lenses, but I have come to the opinion that I really and truly do not enjoy working with X trans raw files. Bayer files are easier and cleaner to work with. Yes I can use something other than Photoshop or Lightroom to edit, but my entire Nikon workflow is routed through those programs and the x trans fuji is not so good as to change my entire workflow.

I would sell my X-E1 for a Bayer version almost immediately. I don't want a X-A1 because of the cheaper build and no evf.

Well, this only shows you how different people's opinions can be??? I have used Nikons and Canon cameras, the last ones D300s, D800 and the 5DMKII. When I switched to the Fuji, I thought initially to just use the camera for travel, but the files when opened were like I had removed the veil from the lens, there was a clarity, that I still find unbelievable, my initial idea was that this was probably due to the X-Trans Sensor ... Have compared the Fuji files lately to the Canon 6D and still find the Fuji would be my preference!

But! I see you use Lightroom, I use Capture One 7 Pro ... would have been nicer if the sensors algorithms were more universally useable, but maybe that's part of what I like about it!

... crop from a photo taken last week, have a look at 100% obviously not to your liking, but I personally find that the files are amongst the cleanest I have on my computer ... just my opinion ok, I like the skin tones and the sharpness level:

Cheers

Deed

1+ I ran into a few problems with LR at first but since moving to C1 (which I like better than LR now as well) I find the detail and colour to be first rate, even at default. I also come from 5dmkii with L quality lenses and Nex7+Zeiss etc..... all have been sold and I now have a complete X Trans system with X-E1 as backup. Looking forward to how they develop X-Pro2.

I would rather wait longer and for there to be a significant step-up in sensor technology etc than seeing a small incremental change.

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DAndison
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Re: Would you buy X-Trans or Bayer
In reply to sgoldswo, 11 months ago

sgoldswo wrote:

As long as you shoot RAW...Sony's JPEG engine sucks compared to Fuji.

NTNphoto wrote:

To be honest I'm keeping an eye on things over at sony. Rumor has it their 24mp mirror less FF is going to be in the 1600 ballpark. If I can adapt my Leica lenses to it comfortably I'm selling the X-E1 and my 18-55.

I would imagine that the sensor in the Sony is quite similar to the excellent sony made sensor in my D600 in which case I'm pretty sold on the idea.

Ah yes I shoot mostly RAW which is why I have issues with the x trans. I will definitely agree that Fuji's jpeg engine is just about the best I've seen really. I guess what I would like to see is a Bayer fuji with the same jpeg engine so it would be the best of both worlds.

Why? It's easy to get great results from RAW
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I know, I only ever shoot raw and I've never had any issues (use C1 Pro7).

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deednets
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Re: Neither
In reply to sgoldswo, 11 months ago

sgoldswo wrote:

Just curious. Let's say Fuji released the next generation of X-P1 and X-E1 with a choice of sensors and the purchaser could choose Bayer or X-Trans. Same price. Which would you select?

I would actively be considering selling all my fuji gear
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Now there is a fantastic contribution!

Well done!

Deed

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57LowRider
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Re: Neither
In reply to deednets, 11 months ago

Frankly I'm appalled to find, after almost a year of shooting a lot of images that I really really like with my X-E1, that the X-Trans sensor is No Good. Well knock me down with a chamois leather, I'll have to start disliking all of my shots now.

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mjl699
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Re: Would you buy X-Trans or Bayer
In reply to DAndison, 11 months ago

DAndison wrote:

deednets wrote:

NTNphoto wrote:

Honestly after using the X-E1 since December...a Bayer sensor. Ergonomic wise I love the camera. I like using it, the build quality, the options for adapting other lenses, but I have come to the opinion that I really and truly do not enjoy working with X trans raw files. Bayer files are easier and cleaner to work with. Yes I can use something other than Photoshop or Lightroom to edit, but my entire Nikon workflow is routed through those programs and the x trans fuji is not so good as to change my entire workflow.

I would sell my X-E1 for a Bayer version almost immediately. I don't want a X-A1 because of the cheaper build and no evf.

Well, this only shows you how different people's opinions can be??? I have used Nikons and Canon cameras, the last ones D300s, D800 and the 5DMKII. When I switched to the Fuji, I thought initially to just use the camera for travel, but the files when opened were like I had removed the veil from the lens, there was a clarity, that I still find unbelievable, my initial idea was that this was probably due to the X-Trans Sensor ... Have compared the Fuji files lately to the Canon 6D and still find the Fuji would be my preference!

But! I see you use Lightroom, I use Capture One 7 Pro ... would have been nicer if the sensors algorithms were more universally useable, but maybe that's part of what I like about it!

... crop from a photo taken last week, have a look at 100% obviously not to your liking, but I personally find that the files are amongst the cleanest I have on my computer ... just my opinion ok, I like the skin tones and the sharpness level:

Cheers

Deed

1+ I ran into a few problems with LR at first but since moving to C1 (which I like better than LR now as well) I find the detail and colour to be first rate, even at default. I also come from 5dmkii with L quality lenses and Nex7+Zeiss etc..... all have been sold and I now have a complete X Trans system with X-E1 as backup. Looking forward to how they develop X-Pro2.

I would rather wait longer and for there to be a significant step-up in sensor technology etc than seeing a small incremental change.

+1

Theoretically I would stay with X-Trans. I am not expecting a difference between Bayer vs X-Trans, but I do expect a difference between cameras with or without an AA filter. And X-Trans beats Bayer on Moire, if there is any about.

But photography is not a theoretical subject and the proof the of camera is in the pictures. IQ remains the standout feature of the XP1. Better than anything I have used previously. Maybe the latest cameras are getting there but I cannot tell, for example, from the XA-1 images posted so far.

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