Nikon and Sony to show Medium Format Cameras at Expo

Started Oct 3, 2013 | Discussions
stevo23
Senior MemberPosts: 4,724Gear list
Like?
Re: ????
In reply to ragspix, Oct 5, 2013

ragspix wrote:

Alan Brown wrote:

ragspix wrote:

Not if they're a photographer, the average income is down...

Rags

If you run a professional business you calculate in all of your running costs, building, equipment needs etc before ypu take a wage..

Equipment like this.. if this is your market segment, is a business expense and deductible and usually VAT is reclaimable.

Hobbyists who have the cash don't care either.. take Leica and Hassy. Maybe jewellery to wear for those who can afford it.

Not your usual suspects..

-- hide signature --

There is a very fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness.' :'!':

Thanks for the business lecture... my guess is I've started & run more business's than you...

Really? What's the secret?

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
CFynn
Senior MemberPosts: 5,223Gear list
Like?
Re: Those used to buying into this market...
In reply to Alan Brown, Oct 5, 2013

Alan Brown wrote:

CFynn wrote:

Truman Prevatt wrote:

It reality it makes sense. The first round of MF digital were simply retreaded MF SLR technology with a different back. You have all the issues with a mirror box with MF SLR - except the mirror box is bigger cost more to build causes more vibration, etc. With the mirror-less technology coming along, a MF digital based on a mirror-less design makes a lot of sense, would be less expensive to build.

A MF mirrorless from Nikon would be nice. However it seems very unlikely. I'll only believe it when I see it

There are a few hurdles. First sensor cost is proportional to the sensor area not the linear dimension of the sensor.

Costs rise more than proportional to the area because the larger the area the less yield. A larger sensor is more likely to have a defect, and also there is more wasted space on a wafer with larger sensors . Manufacturing volume would likely be lower too - which also increases per unit costs.

Cost of lenses would be considerably higher too.

Are used to the higher costs. They earn far much more money.

I used to shoot medium format film (6x6, 6x7 & 6x9)

The market for medium format digital cameras is pretty small - and most of the existing players in that market do not seem to doing particularly well.  Most users of medium format digital do not upgrade equipment as frequently as DSLR users either.

I cant see that it makes any sense for Nikon to introduce a medium format system.

It might make some sense for Sony to produce medium format sensors, or even digital backs, if they can produce them at the right price  But that is quite a different thing from creating a whole system.

 CFynn's gear list:CFynn's gear list
Fujifilm X10 Nikon D800E Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D Nikon AF Nikkor 105mm f/2D DC Nikon AF Nikkor 180mm f/2.8D ED-IF +14 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
CFynn
Senior MemberPosts: 5,223Gear list
Like?
Re: Nikon and Sony to show Medium Format Cameras at Expo
In reply to BasiliskPhoto, Oct 5, 2013

BasiliskPhoto wrote:

Biggers sensors might be more expensive to make, but surely a 6x6 sensor would only need half the pixel density of the D800, so that would reduce the cost/technical challenge somewhat

Pixel density has little to do with the cost - size is the main factor.

Also, with a mirrorless MF camera, with a short flange distance, any MF lens could be adapted, with space for electronics to manage AF also a possiblity. You are not going to be using this for shooting fast moving objects, so slow, but accurate AF might be adequate.

System manufacturers want you to buy their lenses - I suspect adapting 3rd party MF lenses is pretty far down their list of considerations when it comes to designing a system. People buying a MF system want the very best IQ -- how many of them would actually want to use older lenses designed for film not digital?

A square sensor would give you portrait and landscape options without rotating the camera which is another plus.

I used to use both a Rolliei TLR a Hasselblad 6x6 system, like the square format, and am aware of its benefits - and drawbacks. The fact is most people criop to a rectangular format so, whether you want a vertical or horizontal shot they end up not using one third of a very expensive sensor.

A square format would likely almost double the cost of the system and provide little benefit you couldn't get with a rotating back.

 CFynn's gear list:CFynn's gear list
Fujifilm X10 Nikon D800E Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D Nikon AF Nikkor 105mm f/2D DC Nikon AF Nikkor 180mm f/2.8D ED-IF +14 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
thomo
Contributing MemberPosts: 962Gear list
Like?
Re: Nikon and Sony to show Medium Format Cameras at Expo
In reply to CFynn, Oct 5, 2013

The benefits of square format are that you don't have to tilt the camera 90 degrees to change from landscape to vertical format and have the associated shadow problems using flash. It also lets you get the full linear resolution of the sensor regardless of aspect ratio and if you decide to print square you're not using 1/3 of the sensor area and resolution. I actually find it a pain having to tilt my MFD Hasselblad compared to when I shot 6x6 with the V-series cameras. Mind you, I did like the rotating backs on my RZ67's. I'm still hanging onto my 553ELX in the hope that the prices on digital backs falls even lower

 thomo's gear list:thomo's gear list
Fujifilm FinePix X100 Nikon Df +10 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Alan Brown
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,900Gear list
Like?
Re: ????
In reply to ragspix, Oct 5, 2013

ragspix wrote:

Alan Brown wrote:

ragspix wrote:

Not if they're a photographer, the average income is down...

Rags

If you run a professional business you calculate in all of your running costs, building, equipment needs etc before ypu take a wage..

Equipment like this.. if this is your market segment, is a business expense and deductible and usually VAT is reclaimable.

Hobbyists who have the cash don't care either.. take Leica and Hassy. Maybe jewellery to wear for those who can afford it.

Not your usual suspects..

-- hide signature --

There is a very fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness.' :'!':

Thanks for the business lecture... my guess is I've started & run more business's than you...

unnecessary comment

Business expenses are deductible against income... don't you get it?

there are not many businesses that can purchase high ticket price equipment solely from income.. hence many need loans. especially for expansion or replacement of plant. if you have personal worth you can, obviously; then it is usually a hobby disguised as a business. I know many of such. Most startups do not get into the black for some time, so, no income..

I agree with you that 'soccer moms' have invaded the photographers 'pay for it' domain; it has here. I see a change recently, though, with my business (perhaps there is some coincidence with a slight up-turm) where clients are seeking quality over quantity..(from camera owning relatives/friends)

Our experiences may be different: we might both be right.

peace

Photographers are making less because there are fewer printed pages and soccer moms have dslrs

I agree about hobbyists vs mental illness... however a lot of the broad based "wealth effect" has been diminished because of the stock market /housing dive.

Rags

-- hide signature --

There is a very fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness.' :'!':

 Alan Brown's gear list:Alan Brown's gear list
Nikon 1 J2 Nikon D610 Sigma 70-300mm F4-5.6 APO DG Macro Nikon AF-S Nikkor 50mm f/1.8G Nikon 1 Nikkor VR 10-30mm f/3.5-5.6 +1 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Nexu1
Senior MemberPosts: 1,951
Like?
Re: Nikon and Sony to show Medium Format Cameras at Expo
In reply to khaledgawdat, Oct 5, 2013

khaledgawdat wrote:

Canon is working on a medium format system, Nikon has a patent for a medium format lens. Seems that FF people think bigger not smaller is better
--
K.Gawdat

Think back 5 years and Canon and Nikon were selling a ton of point & shoot cameras.  As we all know, camera phones are killing that market.  It might be as simple as Canon/Nikon see all/most smaller sensor cameras evaporating and DX/FX/MF remaining.  Hell, some think DX won't survive.  Maybe in 10 years FX is the "consumer/advanced amateur" sensor size while MF is for "pro's".

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
PaulW1978
Forum MemberPosts: 50
Like?
Re: Nikon and Sony to show Medium Format Cameras at Expo
In reply to Stacey_K, Oct 7, 2013

This is a low-res copy of the D800 full-frame image shot at ISO 2000, f/5.6 1/200 at 200mm (Nikon 70-200 VR). Looking at the tremendous detail (below) that this sensor and glass can capture, I can't imagine I'd ever have need for a medium-format camera/sensor.

Here is the amazing level of DETAIL within the above image.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Ron Innocencio
Regular MemberPosts: 396
Like?
Re: Nikon and Sony to show Medium Format Cameras at Expo
In reply to Nexu1, Oct 7, 2013

Nexu1 wrote:

khaledgawdat wrote:

Canon is working on a medium format system, Nikon has a patent for a medium format lens. Seems that FF people think bigger not smaller is better
--
K.Gawdat

Think back 5 years and Canon and Nikon were selling a ton of point & shoot cameras. As we all know, camera phones are killing that market. It might be as simple as Canon/Nikon see all/most smaller sensor cameras evaporating and DX/FX/MF remaining. Hell, some think DX won't survive. Maybe in 10 years FX is the "consumer/advanced amateur" sensor size while MF is for "pro's".

"Pro's" will most likely be extinct in 10 years. At least for still photojournalism. Already 85-90% of MLB, NBA, & NFL sports photographers are weekend wannabes with day jobs as doctors, lawyers, real estate executives, and engineers, or retired cops and retired high school coaches.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
BelePhotography
Regular MemberPosts: 310Gear list
Like?
Re: Nikon and Sony to show Medium Format Cameras at Expo
In reply to davetj_uk, Oct 7, 2013

FF is reaching certain tresholds and it would be an opportunity for Nikon to finally go beyond the F-Mount on a professional level. So why not? But personally I believe it's just a matter of ticking every box when applying for the event and wouldn't read too much into it at the moment, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
Cheers, Bele

 BelePhotography's gear list:BelePhotography's gear list
Nikon D3S Nikon D800 Olympus E-M1 Fujifilm X-E2 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 14-24mm f/2.8G ED +7 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Rbrt
Regular MemberPosts: 127Gear list
Like?
Re: ????
In reply to Alan Brown, Oct 7, 2013

Alan Brown wrote:

ragspix wrote:

Not if they're a photographer, the average income is down...

Rags

If you run a professional business you calculate in all of your running costs, building, equipment needs etc before ypu take a wage..

Equipment like this.. if this is your market segment, is a business expense and deductible and usually VAT is reclaimable.

Hobbyists who have the cash don't care either.. take Leica and Hassy. Maybe jewellery to wear for those who can afford it.

Not your usual suspects..

-- hide signature --

There is a very fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness.' :'!':

It's an expense like salary is an expense. So if you've a choice between paying yourself and spending on equipment, which would you prefer? Just saying something is a business expense does not make the cost any easier to swallow.

 Rbrt's gear list:Rbrt's gear list
Nikon D610 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 50mm f/1.8G Nikon AF-S Nikkor 85mm f/1.8G Sigma 35mm F1.4 DG HSM
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Ron Innocencio
Regular MemberPosts: 396
Like?
Re: Nikon and Sony to show Medium Format Cameras at Expo
In reply to PaulW1978, Oct 7, 2013

I recommend you try the D800e, 85mm/F1.4G, and 200mm/F2.0VRII.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Stacey_K
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,688Gear list
Like?
Re: Nikon and Sony to show Medium Format Cameras at Expo
In reply to PaulW1978, Oct 7, 2013

This is a low-res copy of the D800 full-frame image shot at ISO 2000, f/5.6 1/200 at 200mm (Nikon 70-200 VR). Looking at the tremendous detail (below) that this sensor and glass can capture, I can't imagine I'd ever have need for a medium-format camera/sensor.

I'm not sure I would ever have a need for the resolution of a D800. But people expect the "next model" to out resolve the D800 and IMHO you will see diminishing returns without using the uber $$$ primes like the 200mm F2 or this new $4000 zeiss just announced. Moving to a larger sensor with resolution numbers that a good lens can deal with is probably an easier solution.

-- hide signature --

Stacey

 Stacey_K's gear list:Stacey_K's gear list
Nikon D200 Nikon D700 Nikon D7000 Nikon D800 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 300mm f/4D ED-IF +17 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Stacey_K
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,688Gear list
Like?
Size matters?
In reply to Ron Innocencio, Oct 7, 2013

Ron Innocencio wrote:

"Pro's" will most likely be extinct in 10 years. At least for still photojournalism.

That might be true but for things like product photography, weddings and portraits, I think they will still exist. Most "wanna'bes" don't have a grasp on lighting etc enough to duplicate the pros results. For sports, when there were only manual cameras, it took a lot of skill to get a great action shot with a manual focus 300mm f2.8 on slide film. The modern AF systems are so good and the DR is so wide now, this isn't a requirement anymore.

The above scenarios are why pros might be using med format digital in the future. And having a "large camera" does impress clients no less today than an RB67 did 10 years ago. People think "I don't have a camera -that- good". Sometimes size does matter

-- hide signature --

Stacey

 Stacey_K's gear list:Stacey_K's gear list
Nikon D200 Nikon D700 Nikon D7000 Nikon D800 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 300mm f/4D ED-IF +17 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
mbernard
Senior MemberPosts: 1,073
Like?
Re: Nikon and Sony to show Medium Format Cameras at Expo
In reply to davetj_uk, Oct 7, 2013

IMHO Nikon is going to dig into the smartphone market. However, I won't be surprised if Nikon produces a 36 x 36 square format mirrorless camera and calls it a specific Nikon Medium Format (let's say Nikon 2 or Nikon 3).

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
ragspix
Contributing MemberPosts: 745Gear list
Like?
Re: ????
In reply to stevo23, Oct 7, 2013

stevo23 wrote:

ragspix wrote:

Alan Brown wrote:

ragspix wrote:

Not if they're a photographer, the average income is down...

Rags

If you run a professional business you calculate in all of your running costs, building, equipment needs etc before ypu take a wage..

Equipment like this.. if this is your market segment, is a business expense and deductible and usually VAT is reclaimable.

Hobbyists who have the cash don't care either.. take Leica and Hassy. Maybe jewellery to wear for those who can afford it.

Not your usual suspects..

-- hide signature --

There is a very fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness.' :'!':

Thanks for the business lecture... my guess is I've started & run more business's than you...

Really? What's the secret?

Big Balls....

what do you do for a living?

Rags

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
CFynn
Senior MemberPosts: 5,223Gear list
Like?
Re: Nikon and Sony to show Medium Format Cameras at Expo
In reply to Stacey_K, Oct 7, 2013

Stacey_K wrote:

davetj_uk wrote:

Is there any truth in this?

http://www.cameraegg.org/nikon-and-sony-will-show-medium-format-cameras-at-photoplus-expo/

It makes sense to me for the same reason it did with film. The latest D800 type sensor is really pushing what any glass can resolve. To make higher MP FF bodies at this point would have diminishing returns due to the lack of optics that can resolve them. It would likely be less expensive to produce larger lenses, for a larger sensor, that didn't have to out resolve the current optical designs.

An example of this would be my old fuji 6X9 rangefinder. The lens resolved about what a really good 35mm lens did so it wasn't some optical miracle. But the resulting images were simply amazing and blew away anything you could get from even the best 35mm optics using the best high resolution film.

But medium format sensors are several generations behind current DX and FX sensors whereas you could use the same emulsions for both 120 and 35mm. Most "medium format" sensors are not even 6x4.5 - so the size difference is also nowhere near what you got with your 6X9. Consequently I'd expect the difference between medium format digital and an FX DSLR to be far less than what you got with your Texas Leica over a 35mm SLR.

 CFynn's gear list:CFynn's gear list
Fujifilm X10 Nikon D800E Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D Nikon AF Nikkor 105mm f/2D DC Nikon AF Nikkor 180mm f/2.8D ED-IF +14 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
rockygag
Senior MemberPosts: 1,141
Like?
Re: Nikon and Sony to show Medium Format Cameras at Expo
In reply to CFynn, Oct 8, 2013

Having shot an 80 mega Pixel Phase one back with Schnider Digitars,  there is simply no substitute for sensor size.  I did that on a photographic course.

If I could get that quality in a 10K package, sign me up right now.

Many folks on that course bought one D800 and one D800e the second they were available.

Some do have that kind of cash saved for a rainy day.

That said, real working pro's have been, and are selling off their 50-80K setups, and I would imagine that has to do with profit .....  and the IQ of the D800.  Give the 80 mpix MF from Nikon at the 10K price point, and they would be lining up!  You really need three lenses a-la fuji to launch the system, wide-ish, normal, and short tele prime, all fast, and fast in the MF world means 2.8.  Give me a Hasseblad adapter and I have a ton of great choices!

As I understand the focusing issue the focus systems used in mirrorless ( Contrast based), while slower are more accurate than Phase detect systems.   Not many MF format shooters covering the Olympics for sports documentary! and that would be one reason to go mirrorless.    Pipe it out wirelessly to a full sized retina display, and you're golden!  No need even to have a PERMANENT screen just like the new sony's. QX ...

Dave

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Ron Innocencio
Regular MemberPosts: 396
Like?
Aunts and Uncles
In reply to Stacey_K, Oct 8, 2013

Already "one dozen aunts and Aunst uncles with point and shoots and camcorders" have decimated pro wedding photography. Now smart phones with HD4K are coming.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Leonard Shepherd
Veteran MemberPosts: 8,752Gear list
Like?
Re: Perhaps more important
In reply to davetj_uk, Oct 8, 2013

I am reasonably confident only Nikon of the 3 names mentioned has relatively recent expertise manufacturing medium format lenses.

A new high resolution format with a larger than Nikon F mount ideally needs some new high resolution lenses to go with it.

-- hide signature --

Leonard Shepherd
Many problems turn out to be a lack of intimate knowledge as to how to get the best out of modern and often complex camera equipment.

 Leonard Shepherd's gear list:Leonard Shepherd's gear list
Nikon D800 Nikon D7100 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G IF-ED VR Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 12-24mm f/4G ED-IF Nikon AF-S Nikkor 16-35mm f/4G ED VR +19 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Leif Goodwin
Senior MemberPosts: 1,390Gear list
Like?
Re: Perhaps more important
In reply to Leonard Shepherd, Oct 8, 2013

Leonard Shepherd wrote:

I am reasonably confident only Nikon of the 3 names mentioned has relatively recent expertise manufacturing medium format lenses.

A new high resolution format with a larger than Nikon F mount ideally needs some new high resolution lenses to go with it.

A camera is more useful with a lens.

-- hide signature --

Leonard Shepherd
Many problems turn out to be a lack of intimate knowledge as to how to get the best out of modern and often complex camera equipment.

-- hide signature --

______________________________
Warning: this forum may contain nuts.

 Leif Goodwin's gear list:Leif Goodwin's gear list
Nikon D200 Nikon D600 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 300mm f/4D ED-IF Nikon AF-S Micro-Nikkor 60mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f/2.8D +4 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads