Pls show examples where increasing brightness in post better than increasing ISO.

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PhilPreston3072
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Pls show examples where increasing brightness in post better than increasing ISO.
9 months ago

With the latest sensors, some have been proclaiming it's better to shoot at base ISO and increase brightness in post rather than increase ISO in camera.

I would like to see some examples of this.  Are there any examples where increasing brightness in post delivers better IQ than increasing ISO in camera?  And please, disable all NR settings.

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Jeff
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Re: Pls show examples where increasing brightness in post better than increasing ISO.
In reply to PhilPreston3072, 9 months ago

PhilPreston3072 wrote:

With the latest sensors, some have been proclaiming it's better to shoot at base ISO and increase brightness in post rather than increase ISO in camera.

I would like to see some examples of this. Are there any examples where increasing brightness in post delivers better IQ than increasing ISO in camera? And please, disable all NR settings.

Here's a comparative example from Pierre Sottas comparing the same exposure made at ISO 100 and ISO 6400. http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/36903045 Note the difference in how the highlights have been captured.

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Steen Bay
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Safety highlight headroom
In reply to PhilPreston3072, 9 months ago

PhilPreston3072 wrote:

With the latest sensors, some have been proclaiming it's better to shoot at base ISO and increase brightness in post rather than increase ISO in camera.

I would like to see some examples of this. Are there any examples where increasing brightness in post delivers better IQ than increasing ISO in camera? And please, disable all NR settings.

Shooting 'ISO-less' won't give you better IQ. The shadow noise will be the same, at best, if the sensor is truely 'ISO-less' (and worse if it isn't). It'll 'just' give you more safety highlight headroom than you would have if the ISO was increased, when shooting in low light. More safety highlight headroom is a nice thing, of course (especially if in a hurry), but on the other hand, if you take care not to blow important highlights when shooting the normal way (increasing the ISO), then there isn't really any reason to shoot 'ISO-less'.

If shooting in good light and trying to optimize the IQ/SNR at base ISO (ETTR), then you'll have to learn how to protect important highlights anyway, so if following the same routine at higher ISOs, then blown highlights shouldn't be a problem. But of course, in low light there isn't any reason to push the histogram as far to the right as you would do if using ETTR at base ISO. For example, if f/4, 1/60 sec, ISO 3200 will give you 'ETTR' (or 'HTTR', Histogram To The Right) in low light, then you could use e.g. f/4, 1/60, ISO 2000 instead, in order to be on the safe side and be sure not to blow important highlights. Shooting 'in the dark' at f/4, 1/60, ISO 100 shouldn't be necessary.

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Andre Affleck
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Re: Pls show examples where increasing brightness in post better than increasing ISO.
In reply to PhilPreston3072, 9 months ago

PhilPreston3072 wrote:

With the latest sensors, some have been proclaiming it's better to shoot at base ISO and increase brightness in post rather than increase ISO in camera.

I would like to see some examples of this. Are there any examples where increasing brightness in post delivers better IQ than increasing ISO in camera? And please, disable all NR settings.

bobn wrote here :

So, in the direct route, you would set the maximum exposure (subject to shake and the rest) and then set the brightening to match, whereas the other way you guess at the maximum exposure (via setting a guesstimate on the ISO dial). What most people will do, who don't know that it is exposure which matters, is centre the meter (or let the camera do it) and that will usually result in a lower exposure than had they set the maximum in the first place. No matter how you argue, that is how it really is. People using the ISO first technique will vary rarely set the maximum exposure

Because they are depending on the preview to assess the shot, not just for exposure, but for focus, highlights, etc, which way more important to many.

In ant case, I too would like to see if there is any significant advantage to what he states.

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Andre Affleck
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Re: Pls show examples where increasing brightness in post better than increasing ISO.
In reply to Andre Affleck, 9 months ago

Andre Affleck wrote:

PhilPreston3072 wrote:

With the latest sensors, some have been proclaiming it's better to shoot at base ISO and increase brightness in post rather than increase ISO in camera.

I would like to see some examples of this. Are there any examples where increasing brightness in post delivers better IQ than increasing ISO in camera? And please, disable all NR settings.

bobn wrote here :

So, in the direct route, you would set the maximum exposure (subject to shake and the rest) and then set the brightening to match, whereas the other way you guess at the maximum exposure (via setting a guesstimate on the ISO dial). What most people will do, who don't know that it is exposure which matters, is centre the meter (or let the camera do it) and that will usually result in a lower exposure than had they set the maximum in the first place. No matter how you argue, that is how it really is. People using the ISO first technique will vary rarely set the maximum exposure

Not true, one starts raising ISO when they are already aperture and shutter limited.

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Iliah Borg
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Re: Pls show examples where increasing brightness in post better than increasing ISO.
In reply to Andre Affleck, 9 months ago

People using the ISO first technique will vary rarely set the maximum exposure

Not true, one starts raising ISO when they are already aperture and shutter limited.

Bob says - "people using ISO first technique".

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edu T
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Re: examples where increasing brightness in post is better than increasing ISO.
In reply to PhilPreston3072, 9 months ago

PhilPreston3072 wrote:

With the latest sensors, some have been proclaiming it's better to shoot at base ISO and increase brightness in post rather than increase ISO in camera.

I would like to see some examples of this. Are there any examples where increasing brightness in post delivers better IQ than increasing ISO in camera? And please, disable all NR settings.

These after-brillig shots by Pierre Sottas with a D7000 are a classical example (AFAIK perhaps "the" one). This clear-cut "slain the jabberwocky and bring us its head" evidence was discussed here.

Captions by the author:

"A shot at ISO 6400, 1/30, f2.0 with very bad lightning conditions...

"...and the shot at ISO 100, 1/30, f2.0 (same exposure) and boosted 6 stops in RPP with highlights compression. No post-processing, EXIF should be intact."

(Can't help but notice that back then the angry mob of villagers wielding torches and forks was smaller and/or less frumious...)

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Andre Affleck
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Re: Pls show examples where increasing brightness in post better than increasing ISO.
In reply to Iliah Borg, 9 months ago

People using the ISO first technique will vary rarely set the maximum exposure

Not true, one starts raising ISO when they are already aperture and shutter limited.

Bob says - "people using ISO first technique".

Ok, then I have to question as to how using the method somehow makes one think of ISO first. Its always the last result, after exposure is maximized, regardless of ones understanding of exposure.

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PhilPreston3072
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Re: examples where increasing brightness in post is better than increasing ISO.
In reply to edu T, 9 months ago

edu T wrote:

PhilPreston3072 wrote:

With the latest sensors, some have been proclaiming it's better to shoot at base ISO and increase brightness in post rather than increase ISO in camera.

I would like to see some examples of this. Are there any examples where increasing brightness in post delivers better IQ than increasing ISO in camera? And please, disable all NR settings.

These after-brillig shots by Pierre Sottas with a D7000 are a classical example (AFAIK perhaps "the" one). This clear-cut "slain the jabberwocky and bring us its head" evidence was discussed here.

Captions by the author:

"A shot at ISO 6400, 1/30, f2.0 with very bad lightning conditions...

"...and the shot at ISO 100, 1/30, f2.0 (same exposure) and boosted 6 stops in RPP with highlights compression. No post-processing, EXIF should be intact."

(Can't help but notice that back then the angry mob of villagers wielding torches and forks was smaller and/or less frumious...)

I would say the ISO6400 has been disadvantaged here.  The highlight areas of the verandah are already blown at this exposure.  He should have reduced the exposure until those highlights weren't clipped at ISO6400 and then applied the same exposure settings for ISO100, and then applied shadow recovery if necessary.

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Iliah Borg
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Re: Pls show examples where increasing brightness in post better than increasing ISO.
In reply to Andre Affleck, 9 months ago

I have to question as to how using the method somehow makes one think of ISO first. Its always the last result, after exposure is maximized, regardless of ones understanding of exposure.

The order depends on the understanding of the exposure. Most shooters I saw set ISO at some value before allowing the camera to use A, S, but mostly P.

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Iliah Borg
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Re: examples where increasing brightness in post is better than increasing ISO.
In reply to PhilPreston3072, 9 months ago

> He should have reduced the exposure until those highlights weren't clipped at ISO6400

And make image more noisy by reducing exposure?

It is not about ISO 6400 being at disadvantage, it is about the advantage to the resulting image.

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Andre Affleck
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Re: Pls show examples where increasing brightness in post better than increasing ISO.
In reply to Iliah Borg, 9 months ago

Iliah Borg wrote:

I have to question as to how using the method somehow makes one think of ISO first. Its always the last result, after exposure is maximized, regardless of ones understanding of exposure.

The order depends on the understanding of the exposure.

I would dissagree. The order, and how you set each, depends on what you are trying to achieve (or willing to sacrifice) and available light. Your understanding of exposture becomes essentially irrelevant IMO.

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Jeff
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Re: examples where increasing brightness in post is better than increasing ISO.
In reply to PhilPreston3072, 9 months ago

PhilPreston3072 wrote:

edu T wrote:

PhilPreston3072 wrote:

With the latest sensors, some have been proclaiming it's better to shoot at base ISO and increase brightness in post rather than increase ISO in camera.

I would like to see some examples of this. Are there any examples where increasing brightness in post delivers better IQ than increasing ISO in camera? And please, disable all NR settings.

These after-brillig shots by Pierre Sottas with a D7000 are a classical example (AFAIK perhaps "the" one). This clear-cut "slain the jabberwocky and bring us its head" evidence was discussed here.

Captions by the author:

"A shot at ISO 6400, 1/30, f2.0 with very bad lightning conditions...

"...and the shot at ISO 100, 1/30, f2.0 (same exposure) and boosted 6 stops in RPP with highlights compression. No post-processing, EXIF should be intact."

(Can't help but notice that back then the angry mob of villagers wielding torches and forks was smaller and/or less frumious...)

I would say the ISO6400 has been disadvantaged here. The highlight areas of the verandah are already blown at this exposure. He should have reduced the exposure until those highlights weren't clipped at ISO6400 and then applied the same exposure settings for ISO100, and then applied shadow recovery if necessary.

Why reduce exposure if you don't have to?

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gollywop
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Re: examples where increasing brightness in post is better than increasing ISO.
In reply to PhilPreston3072, 9 months ago

PhilPreston3072 wrote:

edu T wrote:

PhilPreston3072 wrote:

With the latest sensors, some have been proclaiming it's better to shoot at base ISO and increase brightness in post rather than increase ISO in camera.

I would like to see some examples of this. Are there any examples where increasing brightness in post delivers better IQ than increasing ISO in camera? And please, disable all NR settings.

These after-brillig shots by Pierre Sottas with a D7000 are a classical example (AFAIK perhaps "the" one). This clear-cut "slain the jabberwocky and bring us its head" evidence was discussed here.

Captions by the author:

"A shot at ISO 6400, 1/30, f2.0 with very bad lightning conditions...

"...and the shot at ISO 100, 1/30, f2.0 (same exposure) and boosted 6 stops in RPP with highlights compression. No post-processing, EXIF should be intact."

(Can't help but notice that back then the angry mob of villagers wielding torches and forks was smaller and/or less frumious...)

I would say the ISO6400 has been disadvantaged here. The highlight areas of the verandah are already blown at this exposure. He should have reduced the exposure until those highlights weren't clipped at ISO6400 and then applied the same exposure settings for ISO100, and then applied shadow recovery if necessary.

They are the same exposure, and he got the shot he wanted.  Reducing the exposure would simply give a shot a more noise.  I would say ISO 6400 has a disadvantage, but it hasn't been disadvantaged.

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attomole
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Re: examples where increasing brightness in post is better than increasing ISO.
In reply to Iliah Borg, 9 months ago

Iliah Borg wrote:

> He should have reduced the exposure until those highlights weren't clipped at ISO6400

And make image more noisy by reducing exposure?

It is not about ISO 6400 being at disadvantage, it is about the advantage to the resulting image.

So the choice of 6400 ASA and the exposure are wrong, given that the highlights are blown, so you would expose to keep the highlights under control at base ISO settings and let the shadows fall where they will, in the understanding that you can adjust in post?

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bobn2
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Re: Pls show examples where increasing brightness in post better than increasing ISO.
In reply to PhilPreston3072, 9 months ago

PhilPreston3072 wrote:

With the latest sensors, some have been proclaiming it's better to shoot at base ISO and increase brightness in post rather than increase ISO in camera.

It's better to set the brightness you want in processing rather than post-processing.

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bobn2
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Re: Pls show examples where increasing brightness in post better than increasing ISO.
In reply to Andre Affleck, 9 months ago

Andre Affleck wrote:

Andre Affleck wrote:

PhilPreston3072 wrote:

With the latest sensors, some have been proclaiming it's better to shoot at base ISO and increase brightness in post rather than increase ISO in camera.

I would like to see some examples of this. Are there any examples where increasing brightness in post delivers better IQ than increasing ISO in camera? And please, disable all NR settings.

bobn wrote here :

So, in the direct route, you would set the maximum exposure (subject to shake and the rest) and then set the brightening to match, whereas the other way you guess at the maximum exposure (via setting a guesstimate on the ISO dial). What most people will do, who don't know that it is exposure which matters, is centre the meter (or let the camera do it) and that will usually result in a lower exposure than had they set the maximum in the first place. No matter how you argue, that is how it really is. People using the ISO first technique will vary rarely set the maximum exposure

Not true, one starts raising ISO when they are already aperture and shutter limited.

Even so, it's unlikely that they will set the maximum exposure, simply because of what people think they have to do, and what they think their priorities. Somehow they will arrive at what they think is the right ISO for shooting, maybe by trial end error as you suggest and possibly just by making a guess, which is the impression that I get from people about setting ISO. You often get statements like '1600 lets me get the shutter speed I need'. Anyhow, however they get there, they now are at the ISO that they want to work. Then they centre the meter (maybe with some EC) to 'nail' the exposure, which means adjusting for some fixed output brightness at that ISO. To do that, they will almost always get a smaller exposure than they need. Supposing they decide that the DOF and motion blur are alright, they'll shoot, even though they might still have been alright up to half a stop more exposure. If they don't think they'll be alright, they'll raise the ISO (usually by a whole stop, I'd guess) and then centre the meter, and the same situation applies. Only when by co-incidence does the maximum exposure that their pictorial constraints allow is the same as the one that centres the meter at that ISO, will they have maximised the exposure, I don't think it often happens.

In any case, even if it does, the rigmarole that they have gone through to get there is a whole lot longer than the simple route, set the aperture and shutter for the largest exposure that your pictorial constraints allow, set the ISO to get the brightness, according to your usual methods for 'nailing the exposure brightness' (mine are do it at my leisure on a nice big computer screen).

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bobn2
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Re: Safety highlight headroom
In reply to Steen Bay, 9 months ago

Steen Bay wrote:

PhilPreston3072 wrote:

With the latest sensors, some have been proclaiming it's better to shoot at base ISO and increase brightness in post rather than increase ISO in camera.

I would like to see some examples of this. Are there any examples where increasing brightness in post delivers better IQ than increasing ISO in camera? And please, disable all NR settings.

Shooting 'ISO-less' won't give you better IQ.

It usually will.

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Bob

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bobn2
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Re: Pls show examples where increasing brightness in post better than increasing ISO.
In reply to Andre Affleck, 9 months ago

Andre Affleck wrote:

Iliah Borg wrote:

I have to question as to how using the method somehow makes one think of ISO first. Its always the last result, after exposure is maximized, regardless of ones understanding of exposure.

The order depends on the understanding of the exposure.

I would dissagree. The order, and how you set each, depends on what you are trying to achieve (or willing to sacrifice) and available light. Your understanding of exposture becomes essentially irrelevant IMO.

IMO, you are wrong. There is a fundamental difference of goal. On the one hand you are trying to maximise exposure, on the other you are trying to set an exposure which gives some desired brightness given the processing already set. Generally if you go after different goals, you will end up different places.

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bobn2
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Re: Pls show examples where increasing brightness in post better than increasing ISO.
In reply to Andre Affleck, 9 months ago

Andre Affleck wrote:

People using the ISO first technique will vary rarely set the maximum exposure

Not true, one starts raising ISO when they are already aperture and shutter limited.

Bob says - "people using ISO first technique".

Ok, then I have to question as to how using the method somehow makes one think of ISO first. Its always the last result, after exposure is maximized, regardless of ones understanding of exposure.

Interesting to do a poll, see whether most photographers set the ISO first or last. My guess is first, because the camera user interface is designed that way.

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