How can I keep my D-600 when...

Started 7 months ago | Discussions
1w12q312qw1
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Move along please!
In reply to kiirokurisu, 7 months ago

kiirokurisu wrote:

Well, you're wrong. Mine does not have the problem. I've tested for it repeatedly and it does not occur. I have over 5000 actuations and zero oil spots. The applicable proverb here is "the plural of anecdote is not data". Try to remember that next time.

To the OP - this issue has literally been discussed to death on this forum. A quick search would net probably hundreds of threads. Is yours somehow different, necessitating starting a new thread? Doubtful. The options that are open to you are very clear, pick one and be done with it.

Otherwise we might have to add a new post type alongside the poll, question, review etc: pointless whine.

If you don't like the thread, why don't you just move on? Instead, you're whining about the "whiners", and I come along and have to whine about the whiners of the whiners.

A lot of us are on the fence about the D600/D610 and find these threads are a timely update as to the problems and effectiveness of the fixes. Prior threads have sometimes devolved into mud-wrestling with people like leicaman leading the mud, so a fresh thread initiated by a VERY talented photographer with a keen knowledge of gear is welcomed by most of us here.

AGAIN, if you don't like the thread, do not participate and leave the moderation to the moderator, he's doing just fine and a lot better than you.

Stan

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Anfy
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Re: Just to ask,
In reply to leicaman, 7 months ago

leicaman wrote:

Ma certo,

I was an early adoptor.... but if you look at recent buyer feedback comments from B&H and Amazon it seems that the problem still exists on new stock with recent serial numbers.

And it's a pity, since a (very) discounted D600 is the only way I could afford myself a FF dSLR; D610, if ever appears, will be undoubtely sold at a premium price compared to the D600, and in every case I would wait for the first full reviews etc., what means many months from now.

D800 is not an option, for its price range and given also that I possess many '90 years AF-D and AIs lenses that could possibly not match the 36MP camera quality.

Ciao!

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sgoldswo
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Re: Upgrade to D800
In reply to user_name, 7 months ago

user_name wrote:

If the camera is really generating revenue you probably can make an economic case to upgrade to the D800.

If you can get your money back spent of the D600, buy a new D800 and be done with it.

That assumes that your currently scheduled jobs can pay off the extra $1,000 needed to upgrade in a timely fashion.

I also don't know what you consider the cost of the downtime to keep sending in a camera after a few hundred shutter activations is, but it would seem to be pretty expensive to me.

I'll be honest, I had some beautiful files out of my D800E over the weekend, but I'm still of the view that for me it would have made more sense to stick with the D600 rather than upgrading for resolution.

24mp is, in some ways, superior. It's a pity the shutter speed isn't 1/8000.

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sgoldswo
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Re: Move along please!
In reply to 1w12q312qw1, 7 months ago

1w12q312qw1 wrote:

kiirokurisu wrote:

Well, you're wrong. Mine does not have the problem. I've tested for it repeatedly and it does not occur. I have over 5000 actuations and zero oil spots. The applicable proverb here is "the plural of anecdote is not data". Try to remember that next time.

To the OP - this issue has literally been discussed to death on this forum. A quick search would net probably hundreds of threads. Is yours somehow different, necessitating starting a new thread? Doubtful. The options that are open to you are very clear, pick one and be done with it.

Otherwise we might have to add a new post type alongside the poll, question, review etc: pointless whine.

If you don't like the thread, why don't you just move on? Instead, you're whining about the "whiners", and I come along and have to whine about the whiners of the whiners.

A lot of us are on the fence about the D600/D610 and find these threads are a timely update as to the problems and effectiveness of the fixes. Prior threads have sometimes devolved into mud-wrestling with people like leicaman leading the mud, so a fresh thread initiated by a VERY talented photographer with a keen knowledge of gear is welcomed by most of us here.

AGAIN, if you don't like the thread, do not participate and leave the moderation to the moderator, he's doing just fine and a lot better than you.

Stan

I agree with kiirokurisu - please jog on.

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1w12q312qw1
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Re: Move along please!
In reply to sgoldswo, 7 months ago

sgoldswo wrote:

I agree with kiirokurisu - please jog on.

I like to jog.

Look, the pudding's proof will be in the D610. We know for a fact that some D600s are perfect while others have upper-left blobbing which Nikon has NOT been able to fix in every case. I'm not going to guess the percentage, Nikon may not even know. No one knows, agreed?

But if the D610 comes out with too small to mention improvements (like +0.5 fps) but with a whole new shutter mechanism that solves the issue, then and only then will we conclude that the D600 has a major design flaw. If the D610 comes out with the exact same shutter w/blobbing and some minor improvements, then they are indeed playing Russian Roulette with the bodies where some are affected but not all. And if that indeed happens, the D6XX line will be a black mark for Nikon and they'll be losing a ton of customers.

Stan

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stevo23
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Re: How can I keep my D-600 when...
In reply to Hugo808, 7 months ago

Hugo808 wrote:

I don't know how many actuations you have on the camera, but whatever causes the sticky spots seems to go away after 3000 although mine took about 5000. A wet clean is for me a necessary skill for any DSLR as I shoot outdoors and accumulate all manner of dust and debris.

But I can assure you the frequency of needed cleanings drops significantly to normal intervals.

But aren't you guys seriously annoyed that a major company like Nikon would sell a product that is obviously defective and was from day one?

That's the point, I don't think it's defective.

Nobody minds problems if they are sorted out swiftly but this is a joke! It stopped me buying one - that and the tiny DX focus sensor array didn't help- I kind of expect something to work properly when I buy it and it doesn't matter how much or little I spend, but this is an expensive camera! I don't want to waste time doing wet cleans when it isn't my fault.

You'll be wet cleaning it no matter what. In this camera's case, one or two extra cleans until it quits. As for the focus array, whatever. I don't thrive on auto focus anyhow.

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sgoldswo
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Re: Move along please!
In reply to 1w12q312qw1, 7 months ago

1w12q312qw1 wrote:

sgoldswo wrote:

I agree with kiirokurisu - please jog on.

I like to jog.

Look, the pudding's proof will be in the D610. We know for a fact that some D600s are perfect while others have upper-left blobbing which Nikon has NOT been able to fix in every case. I'm not going to guess the percentage, Nikon may not even know. No one knows, agreed?

But if the D610 comes out with too small to mention improvements (like +0.5 fps) but with a whole new shutter mechanism that solves the issue, then and only then will we conclude that the D600 has a major design flaw. If the D610 comes out with the exact same shutter w/blobbing and some minor improvements, then they are indeed playing Russian Roulette with the bodies where some are affected but not all. And if that indeed happens, the D6XX line will be a black mark for Nikon and they'll be losing a ton of customers.

Stan

All I can say is this - none of the bodies I bought had this issue. I've shot white walls OOF at F22 till the cows come home trying to replicate it. No sign of oil. Some dust, but a rocket blower sorted that out.

I can only assume from that experience that only some of the D600s were affected by the problem. I can also assume that the impact of the problem was greatly exaggerated by the joys of word of mouth on tinternet fora like this and the fact the camera body was purchased by a lot of people as their first FF camera (it wasn't mine). It's a fact that FF cameras collect more dust, which is more visible. New users see dust on their sensors and assume they have this problem. They don't, they just own a FF camera and all of the joys of keeping a FF sensor clean and free of dust - same as would apply with a D800E or a 5D/6D.

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stevo23
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Re: How can I keep my D-600 when...
In reply to vortex09, 6 months ago

vortex09 wrote:

My experience with the D600 dust/oil problem:

- I've received two refub bodies with severe cases. Both arrived with *filthy* sensors right out of the box, too.

- Before I purchased refurb, I was looking for used copies. I asked four potential sellers to provide me with f/22 white wall or blue sky tests. All four came showed "the problem," with numerous and disproportionate spots in the upper-left quadrant.

- A friend purchased a new D600 about three months ago, June 2013. After only 400 actuations, there are numerous spots, with a clear bias toward the upper-left quadrant.

So in my sample of 7 bodies, all unequivocally exhibited the dust/oil problem.

I've come to suspect strongly that most or all D600 copies are affected. And with all due respect, when I see posts that claim "mine doesn't have it!," my default assumption is that the user simply doesn't shoot at small apertures and hasn't bothered testing for the issue. Perhaps there are *some* relatively clean D600 sensors, but I'm betting the majority of claims that a body is totally unaffected are explained by a lack of thorough testing. (And before anyone says something like "if they have to do a thorough test to find it, then obviously it's not a big deal:" that all depends on your use case. If you do nothing but portraits, fine; if you're all landscapes like me, it's inevitably going to have a real effect on your images).

If you know how to find dots, small apertures aren't necessary.

At 400 actuations, I would expect the "bad" ones to have a lot of particles.

I've certainly never met someone with so many direct data points, so I can see why you are convinced. I've seen threads on this come and go for months and inevitably, there are people who don't have the issue. I tend to believe what they say. But even so, the evidence still suggests the problem goes away and to be fair, Nikon is repairing.

My only complaint, personally, is that they are somewhat silent and non admitting. They never come out and say, "We made a batch of cameras with a messed up shutter curtain" etc. etc. They just say, "you might get a lot of dust. Send it in and we'll check it out."

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stevo23
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Re: How can I keep my D-600 when...
In reply to 57even, 6 months ago

57even wrote:

Peter Damroth wrote:

You have a good case for a replacement or refund. Who did you buy the camera from? In law its really their responsibility, but you may persuade Nikon to replace it with a D610.

Adorama....last December.

December for me as well.

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My dealer got me a full credit for use on another Nikon after 6 months of the same nonsense. I think you should argue with both that the camera is not suitable or fixable and see who wins, and threaten legal action if a refund is not forthcoming, plus loss of earnings.

BTW I switched to a D800 which had tumbled in price. So far I am much more impressed. I know you wanted a 24MP camera, but the difference in IQ is visible. Far less aliasing for one thing.

I might do the same if mine comes back unfixed. It's due on my doorstep tomorrow.

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stevo23
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Re: Upgrade to D800
In reply to caspianm, 6 months ago

caspianm wrote:

user_name wrote:

Could you refine the question just a little more?

That ok I got what you meant with medium size format.

Ha ha! I like the rumor better.

Hey everyone! The D800 shoots in medium format - it's a hidden setting!

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cosmonaut
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Re: How can I keep my D-600 when...
In reply to Peter Damroth, 6 months ago

I am amazed that someone hasn't torn one down and indicated to us all exactly what the issue is. I am curious.

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Antony John
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Re: Just to ask,
In reply to leicaman, 6 months ago

leicaman wrote:

Ma certo,

I was an early adoptor.... but if you look at recent buyer feedback comments from B&H and Amazon it seems that the problem still exists on new stock with recent serial numbers.

That Nikon would let this continue this lond suggests something is seriously wrong with their current management lineup.

You're still repeating the same thing and your still wrong - as anyone can check just looking at those sites.

Surely you could try a new tack for a change?

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stevo23
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Re: How can I keep my D-600 when...
In reply to cosmonaut, 6 months ago

cosmonaut wrote:

I am amazed that someone hasn't torn one down and indicated to us all exactly what the issue is. I am curious.

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www.gregmccary.com

Maybe:

http://petapixel.com/2012/11/22/theory-nikon-d600-sensor-spots-caused-by-scratched-shutter-curtain/

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Catalana
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Re: How can I keep my D-600 when...
In reply to stevo23, 6 months ago

In a sense, the sensor of my D600 is quite contaminated, but it hasn't stopped me from going out and taking shots. Under most conditions it is rarely an issue for me, but if I do landscape it can be quite annoying. 23000 + exposures later, with my warranty period expiring within a week, I decided to take the beast in for a service. Whatever Nikon Service will do, i.e., replace the shutter or just clean it, I'll keep on using the D600 until it dies. I just like this camera.

At f/16 with the 50mm/1.8G, Jpeg straight OOC...

Same shot, desaturated with extreme contrast and levels applied.

To me it is not dust, those bunnies are long gone, but rather lubricant/oil. Maybe I'll get lucky and Nikon will alleviate my issue. If I get the time, I'll take a look at the sensor of my Pentax K-5 back-up camera and post a comparison. Maybe I'll borrow some different cameras from some friends and see what kind of results I can get. I have a feeling that many sensors out there will have similar issues.

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Dave Sanders
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Re: How can I keep my D-600 when...
In reply to stevo23, 6 months ago

stevo23 wrote:

Hi Peter,

I don't know how many actuations you have on the camera, but whatever causes the sticky spots seems to go away after 3000 although mine took about 5000.

I wish. There are lots of us who were/are still seeing lots of spots 8000-10,000 and beyond.

A wet clean is for me a necessary skill for any DSLR as I shoot outdoors and accumulate all manner of dust and debris.

But I can assure you the frequency of needed cleanings drops significantly to normal intervals.

It did not in my case. I could do a studio shoot in the morning/afternoon that rendered my D600 unusable for long exposure work in the evening. Heck, a few continuous bursts could spray enough on my previously clean sensor to render it unusable for any number of tasks.

Thankfully Henry's in Toronto took mine back, no questions asked.

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Dave Sanders
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Re: How can I keep my D-600 when...
In reply to stevo23, 6 months ago

stevo23 wrote:

No one seems to know if its a design flaw or a poor subassembly /process tolerance problem. I think it's likely to be the latter simply because the problem goes away over time. My time in manufacturing taught me that it's a difficult thing to get perfect products 100% of the time.

I agree, though there are cases where it doesn't go away so quickly.

If the shutter manufacturing line (3rd party?) changed one small parameter, it could have caused this whole thing and a whole batch of bad shutters may have left the lines and made it into our cameras. The size of the issue would then be related to how many they made in a single run and when they discovered the problem.

Again, having spent some time in manufacturing, this is the most likely scenario in my mind.

This is a sane opinion. While I was dreadfully disappointed in my D600's urge to spray oil like a leaky hydraulic hose, my friend's D600 is perfectly fine and has been since day 1. Luck of the draw, I got one of the really bad ones. Oil probelm, it was sent in, refurbished, I bought it, had nothing but problems, sent it in again with almost 9,000 clicks on the clock and still able to coat the upper left side of the sensor in 100 shots after a clean. All the while my friend has been clicking away with what is truly an outstanding camera.

Honestly, it's a real disappointment. For those of us who chase fleeting light for long exposures, the D600's ability to produce an essentially noiseless file on a 4min+ exposure that didn't require LENR was a godsend. The D800 peppers the sky with white spots without LENR turned on.

In a perfect world, the D610 comes out, kills the second hand market for the D600 and I get a screaming hot deal on a D600 that doesn't have the problem...

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happypoppeye
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Re: How can I keep my D-600 when...
In reply to Peter Damroth, 6 months ago

Peter Damroth wrote:

I had lot's of spots on the sensor, then got the camera r+r by Nikon. Less than 100 shots later I have MORE spots....a lot of them. I was working in the studio using the camera for a catalog and now I have spots on the products and around the products. This is wrong to sell a camera that is clearly defective.

AND spots are not always in a sky etc. Spots on products are sometimes very difficult to remove.

Oh, yes I was working at f11.....because the job called for that.  Very Disappointed....

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Well, when you play with things like that, this is what happens. NIkon has had this "spot" issue on various models for some time now and it is a known issue on the D600 yet you still bought one and sent it in for R&R instead of returning it. Can you still return it? What else are you going to do? If you can't return it what else are you going to do? Sell it knwoing "this is wrong to sell a camera that is clearly defective".

...and what are you going to do if you get rid of it. Buy another Nikon? I wouldn't.

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lancespring
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You are behaving like a drama queen
In reply to Peter Damroth, 6 months ago

Peter Damroth wrote:

I had lot's of spots on the sensor, then got the camera r+r by Nikon. Less than 100 shots later I have MORE spots....a lot of them. I was working in the studio using the camera for a catalog and now I have spots on the products and around the products. This is wrong to sell a camera that is clearly defective.

AND spots are not always in a sky etc. Spots on products are sometimes very difficult to remove.

Oh, yes I was working at f11.....because the job called for that. Very Disappointed....

So your camera produces all of these horrible images, but you are unable to post even one of them?
Does not sound like a very credible story to me.

You are being very much a drama queen here. And that damages your credibility even more.

.

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lancespring
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Wet cleaning is not that difficult
In reply to Peter Damroth, 6 months ago

Peter Damroth wrote:

Did ALL.....except wet clean.

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You consider yourself to be a professional photographer, yet you are not able to wet clean a sensor??

.

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Peter Damroth
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Re: Wet cleaning is not that difficult
In reply to lancespring, 6 months ago

lancespring wrote:

Peter Damroth wrote:

Did ALL.....except wet clean.

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Peter Damroth Photography

You consider yourself to be a professional photographer, yet you are not able to wet clean a sensor??

.

I'm what ever you want to call me! I have made my living selling photography for more than 40 years....and yes I can wet clean......just not every other job!

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