Most activity on M4/3s forum

Started Sep 27, 2013 | Discussions
Bob Tullis
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Re: you guys are confused
In reply to tko, Sep 29, 2013

tko wrote:

Great cameras = people out taking photos = not much forum activity

cameras with problems = people complaining = lots of forum activity

cameras with problems vs cameras w/no problems = lots of jealously and comparisons

Nice try though. The Canon 5dIII is probably the greatest camera made so far. Just about perfect. I guess I'm more active taking photos and entering contests than complaining about a camera I love.

How about you guys?

You're a good photographer, too good to lower yourself like this.

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brianric
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Re: you guys are confused
In reply to tko, Sep 29, 2013

tko wrote:

Great cameras = people out taking photos = not much forum activity

cameras with problems = people complaining = lots of forum activity

cameras with problems vs cameras w/no problems = lots of jealously and comparisons

Nice try though. The Canon 5dIII is probably the greatest camera made so far. Just about perfect. I guess I'm more active taking photos and entering contests than complaining about a camera I love.

How about you guys?

You posted almost twice as much as I have. Does that mean I've taken more photos than you have?

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Thomas Karlmann
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35mm Film is somehow optimal for digital sensors?
In reply to ApertureAcolyte, Sep 29, 2013

ApertureAcolyte wrote:

Big Ga wrote:

Jere Landis wrote:

I shot Canon for years and still use a Canon DSLR sometimes. I went over the the Canon forum I used to frequent a lot, guess what, the activity there is not near what it is here. Why do you think that is the case.

Canon and Nikon have had decades to hone and perfect things like the ergonomics of their cameras,

Really? Each to their own. I think the ergonomics of full frame DSLR's just plain suck. They are bloated boat anchors compared to 35mm Film SLR's

I think this is essentially correct.  I think the "decades of refinement" went into the 35mm film cameras.  So when they designed those cameras, I'm sure they started out with the 35mm film cartridge -- and then designed the camera around that.  Now that we have digital sensors, did they think they could sneak those digital sensors into their old film bodies and no one would notice?

Who says FF cameras (Read: 35mm film-sized camera bodies) are in any way optimal for digital sensors?  Sure, everyone would like to use their existing glass investment, but how far do (did) they think they can carry this philosophy of a 35mm-film-sized camera pressed into service for digital use?

We could go on with this topic.  The Mirror.  Nice idea in an optical-only world.  Now, that mirror is being proven unnecessary.  Is this an easy decision to arrive at?  No, go take a look at the Sony a99.  MR over at Lum-Land stated in his a99 review: ok, but what is the mirror for?  I had read a long time ago that the added distance between the rear lens element and the sensor/film-plane, required by the mirror, causes compromises in the optical design of the lenses.  So this means that our FF digital cameras are all running with non-optimal glass -- all this results from the derivation of these cameras from film.

Who, among the die-hard OVF fan club are willing to go sans Live View?  Nikon certainly does not have this right -- as you adjust exposure that the view does not change.  ?  Times they are a-changin'.

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TrapperJohn
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Interesting point
In reply to MatsP, Sep 29, 2013

If you look at the history of the DSLR, C/N haven't really brought a lot new to it. Kodak created the DSLR as we know it. Minolta created IBIS. Olympus added live view, the tilt/pivot LCD, dust remover. Sony brought the EVF. Nikon started video with the D90. Fuji experimented with changes to the standard Bayer sensor. Canon first brought out high speed focus motors.

Otherwise, C/N have been content to add, like clockwork, a few more MP, another stop of ISO, every two years. They have very much been the Microsoft of the digital era: relying upon an existing base of owners locked in with lens collections, plus letting the innovators try out new ideas, copying them when they proved to be viable.

It is no coincidence that the companies that form the nucleus of the mirrorless field are the same companies who were pushing the innovation envelope on the DSLR, and getting nowhere economically. Instead, they created a market that wasn't dominated by a duopoly, one where they might actually profit from their ideas.

Note that Fuji did not implement it's newest and greatly improved X-Trans sensor on a DSLR - it went into the X series mirrorless cameras.

Does make one wonder where the DSLR will go next, now that many of its innovators appear to have moved on, or are in the process of moving on.

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Brendan Delaney
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Re: Interesting point
In reply to TrapperJohn, Sep 29, 2013

Its busy because m43 attracts people like me who don't think FF digital is 'the answer'.

Over the years (40years) I've mostly used the OM system and still have 6 bodies and 11 lenses for it. I do shoot B&W film sometimes.

In the past 10 years I've been looking for a digital equivalent, and have tried a lot of systems, buying and selling used so with no loss. My take

Canon - never liked the ergonomics or the glass quality

Nikon - great sensors, top glass is good, but its just too big! I dont want to have to carry a rucksack round for my gear all day.....(I used to have a D3 and 3 primes) Nikon DX is a compromise and makes no sense whatsoever shoe-horned into a full size body. Will eventually go the way of APS film...

4:3 - No primes and no real size advantage for the small sensor. System needs very fast sharp primes to make sense and allow for DOF and noise difference to FF.

Leica FF rangefinder. RF limits practical use to 28-90mm, but wonderful glass. Sensor technology is 'years' behind Nikon. I have an M Monochrom though which is unique. Different kind of photography. Mega expensive.

Olympus m43 OMD (btw I just don't 'get' Panasonic ergonomics). Small fast primes approaching Leica quality, sensors improving. Cutting edge and rapidy improving EVF with all those advantages. Yes, this is the innovative part of digital. Lots to look forward to.

So I use OM film, Leica RF and the OMD EM-5 each with some good lenses and choose the tool for the job.

OMD. Travelling, places I want a small AF camera (gigs) my take anywhere system.

Leica Monochrom. Street photography, especially at night, and serious B&W when I want the tonal range of the M.

OM film. Fun, nostalgia and when I want to use the 16,18 or 21mm lenses.

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Martin.au
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Re: you guys are confused
In reply to tko, Sep 29, 2013

tko wrote:

Great cameras = people out taking photos = not much forum activity

cameras with problems = people complaining = lots of forum activity

cameras with problems vs cameras w/no problems = lots of jealously and comparisons

Nice try though. The Canon 5dIII is probably the greatest camera made so far. Just about perfect. I guess I'm more active taking photos and entering contests than complaining about a camera I love.

How about you guys?

Jere Landis wrote:

I shot Canon for years and still use a Canon DSLR sometimes. I went over the the Canon forum I used to frequent a lot, guess what, the activity there is not near what it is here. Why do you think that is the case.

I think you might have missed a few options there TKO.

eg:

People who enjoy photography = posting on forums, posting pics, talking gear = lots of forum activity.

More people using M4/3s = more people on forums = lots of forum activity.

Forum is more fun = more people attracted to the forum = lots of forum activity.

etc.

I think you might need to work on your analysis a bit more.

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windsprite
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Re: Folks here have taken a divergent path - they need validation
In reply to Wormsmeat, Sep 29, 2013

Wormsmeat wrote:

Very good point. I also believe that people who choose m43 are more likely to be genuinely interested in, and therefore talk about, photography itself. Whereas a larger percentage of those buying CaNikon do so because they want to be seen to have big professional looking gear (which they subsequently use to make snapshots).

As someone who has been shooting four thirds since 2005 (and -- full disclosure -- has since expanded into other brands and formats, including m4/3), I can say that there is also the opposite mentality with a large percentage of four thirds/micro four thirds users, where they choose the less orthodox formats so they can say, "Hey,  I don't go along with the crowd!  I'm different!"  And a lot of those people spend plenty of money just to take snapshots, too.

Julie

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ApertureAcolyte
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Re: you guys are confused
In reply to tko, Sep 29, 2013

tko wrote:

Great cameras = people out taking photos = not much forum activity

cameras with problems = people complaining = lots of forum activity

cameras with problems vs cameras w/no problems = lots of jealously and comparisons

Nice try though. The Canon 5dIII is probably the greatest camera made so far. Just about perfect. I guess I'm more active taking photos and entering contests than complaining about a camera I love.

How about you guys?

Jere Landis wrote:

I shot Canon for years and still use a Canon DSLR sometimes. I went over the the Canon forum I used to frequent a lot, guess what, the activity there is not near what it is here. Why do you think that is the case.

I agree... having IS on every single lens I put on my camera is a big problem for me.

Having a faster flash sync than your 3k+ camera is also a big problem that I have.

Having the ability to mount your canon lenses on my camera and getting superior IS, while you don't get IS at all on many of those lenses, is a big problem for me.

Having the ability to view real time exposure in the viewfinder is a big problem for me also.

Having the preview and x14 zoom in the EVF is also a big problem for me.

Not having to chimp, is a big problem for me, seeing as I can quickly review images in the EVF.

These problems hurt me so much, I have to boast about them.

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jtan163
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Re: Most activity on M4/3s forum
In reply to Sean Nelson, Sep 29, 2013

Sean Nelson wrote:

Jere Landis wrote:

I went over the the Canon forum I used to frequent a lot, guess what, the activity there is not near what it is here. Why do you think that is the case.

I see a lot of (sometimes flippant) theories in this thread, but nobody seems to have pointed out the actual most likely reason...

There are no less than four Canon DSLR forums, so that really dilutes the activity among them. Contrast that with the M43 forum, where two separate manufacturers are lumped together, bringing the users of each into the same place.

No wonder there's more posts here.

Boo! Hiss!
Put your logic away!!!!
This is the M43 forum.

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Ulric
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Re: Folks here have taken a divergent path - they need validation
In reply to windsprite, Sep 29, 2013

windsprite wrote:

Wormsmeat wrote:

Very good point. I also believe that people who choose m43 are more likely to be genuinely interested in, and therefore talk about, photography itself. Whereas a larger percentage of those buying CaNikon do so because they want to be seen to have big professional looking gear (which they subsequently use to make snapshots).

As someone who has been shooting four thirds since 2005 (and -- full disclosure -- has since expanded into other brands and formats, including m4/3), I can say that there is also the opposite mentality with a large percentage of four thirds/micro four thirds users, where they choose the less orthodox formats so they can say, "Hey, I don't go along with the crowd! I'm different!" And a lot of those people spend plenty of money just to take snapshots, too.

As someone who has preordered a Jolla phone, I must say that M43 is far too mainstream. There must be something that is much more obscure, expensive and unusable.

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Marty4650
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And.... this makes it even worse
In reply to Marty4650, Sep 29, 2013

Also remember, there is only ONE M4/3 forum, while there are several for others. So....

  • One forum.........M4/3.............28 new bodies, 36 new lenses
  • Four forums.......Canon DSLR....16 new bodies, 26 new lenses
  • Four forums.......Nikon DSLR.....14 new bodies, 28 new lenses

So.... you have MORE new items to discuss, spread over fewer forums.

It would be absurd if the M4/3 forum didn't have the most traffic.

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SDPharm
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Re: [TRUTH #2] DRP will never break up M43 forum. Its a money generator
In reply to 007peter, Sep 30, 2013

007peter wrote:

...

Sad, but I wish DPR would at least breakup this forum into a M43 body and a M43 lens forum. Afterall, canon/nikon have their lens centric forum and there is enough lens in M43 system to justify a separate forum.

I hope not.

Having two factions together enables us to learn from each other.  Sure we have to suffer through some verbal sparring, but it's all good entertainment.  Lenses are what tie everything together and make us strong.  If I see a better body, I can always jump ship.  But without debates, how can I learn the truth (about which is best)?

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SDPharm
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Nice flame bait [nt]
In reply to tko, Sep 30, 2013
No text.
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Big Ga
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Re: 35mm Film is somehow optimal for digital sensors?
In reply to Thomas Karlmann, Sep 30, 2013

Thomas Karlmann wrote:

ApertureAcolyte wrote:

Big Ga wrote:

Jere Landis wrote:

I shot Canon for years and still use a Canon DSLR sometimes. I went over the the Canon forum I used to frequent a lot, guess what, the activity there is not near what it is here. Why do you think that is the case.

Canon and Nikon have had decades to hone and perfect things like the ergonomics of their cameras,

Really? Each to their own. I think the ergonomics of full frame DSLR's just plain suck. They are bloated boat anchors compared to 35mm Film SLR's

I think this is essentially correct. I think the "decades of refinement" went into the 35mm film cameras.

I'm afraid I have to respectfully disagree. But then I'm not 100% sure that we're on the same wavelength here.

My original posts was frankly, a bit of a windup, but with a healthy does of truth in it. My comment quoted above is about ergonomics, and as someone who shoots professionally, where you need to be able to operate the camera quickly, reliably and flexibly in a whole number of situations, then I'm afraid nothing, and I mean NOTHING in MFT comes anywhere NEAR the performance of something like a D3 or 1DS3.

I don't disagree that some might call them 'bloated boat anchors', but as tools that get the job done, they are in a totally different class, and its MFT cameras that 'totally suck', and this is coming from someone who not only shoots those FF cams mentioned, but also shoots GH3 and EM5 along side. I love the small cameras for portability, but dear god are they miles behind the pro cams at the moment in a whole bunch of operational ways.

I suspect anyone who thinks otherwise really hasn't had to use a pro DSLR in anger.

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Kim Letkeman
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Re: you guys are confused
In reply to tko, Sep 30, 2013

tko wrote:

Great cameras = people out taking photos = not much forum activity

cameras with problems = people complaining = lots of forum activity

cameras with problems vs cameras w/no problems = lots of jealously and comparisons

Twisted fan boy post == YAWN ...

Nice try though. The Canon 5dIII is probably the greatest camera made so far.

Except for every Nikon and Panasonic body

Just about perfect.

Except for not being perfect.

I guess I'm more active taking photos and entering contests than complaining about a camera I love.

Don't forget boasting and pledging your deep and beautiful Canon love ...

How about you guys?

Very busy ... someone is always wrong on the Internet.

Jere Landis wrote:

I shot Canon for years and still use a Canon DSLR sometimes. I went over the the Canon forum I used to frequent a lot, guess what, the activity there is not near what it is here. Why do you think that is the case.

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Kim Letkeman
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Re: you guys are confused
In reply to Bob Tullis, Sep 30, 2013

Bob Tullis wrote:

tko wrote:

Great cameras = people out taking photos = not much forum activity

cameras with problems = people complaining = lots of forum activity

cameras with problems vs cameras w/no problems = lots of jealously and comparisons

Nice try though. The Canon 5dIII is probably the greatest camera made so far. Just about perfect. I guess I'm more active taking photos and entering contests than complaining about a camera I love.

How about you guys?

You're a good photographer, too good to lower yourself like this.

No one is too good to lower themselves ... and I should know

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Kim Letkeman
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one more ...
In reply to Marty4650, Sep 30, 2013

Marty4650 wrote:

Also remember, there is only ONE M4/3 forum, while there are several for others. So....

  • One forum.........M4/3.............28 new bodies, 36 new lenses
  • Four forums.......Canon DSLR....16 new bodies, 26 new lenses
  • Four forums.......Nikon DSLR.....14 new bodies, 28 new lenses

So.... you have MORE new items to discuss, spread over fewer forums.

It would be absurd if the M4/3 forum didn't have the most traffic.

Big brain == already switched to m4/3 == never shuts up about it == lots of forum traffic ...

Simple math ...

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brianric
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Re: 35mm Film is somehow optimal for digital sensors?
In reply to Big Ga, Sep 30, 2013

Big Ga wrote:

My original posts was frankly, a bit of a windup, but with a healthy does of truth in it. My comment quoted above is about ergonomics, and as someone who shoots professionally, where you need to be able to operate the camera quickly, reliably and flexibly in a whole number of situations, then I'm afraid nothing, and I mean NOTHING in MFT comes anywhere NEAR the performance of something like a D3 or 1DS3.

I don't disagree that some might call them 'bloated boat anchors', but as tools that get the job done, they are in a totally different class, and its MFT cameras that 'totally suck', and this is coming from someone who not only shoots those FF cams mentioned, but also shoots GH3 and EM5 along side. I love the small cameras for portability, but dear god are they miles behind the pro cams at the moment in a whole bunch of operational ways.

I suspect anyone who thinks otherwise really hasn't had to use a pro DSLR in anger.

I shoot events, and usually shoot short lens on one (24-70) and long lens on second one (70-200). The 24-70 is shot at f5.6 to 8.0. The FF advantage of two stops on DOF is negated as I can shoot at f2.8 on M43, at a lower ISO than the FF camera. I'll let you know how well the Olympus M-1 stacks up under the conditions I just outlined against my FF cameras. I do own a D3S, along with D700, D800, and D800E.

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Big Ga
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Re: 35mm Film is somehow optimal for digital sensors?
In reply to brianric, Sep 30, 2013

brianric wrote:

Big Ga wrote:

My original posts was frankly, a bit of a windup, but with a healthy does of truth in it. My comment quoted above is about ergonomics, and as someone who shoots professionally, where you need to be able to operate the camera quickly, reliably and flexibly in a whole number of situations, then I'm afraid nothing, and I mean NOTHING in MFT comes anywhere NEAR the performance of something like a D3 or 1DS3.

I don't disagree that some might call them 'bloated boat anchors', but as tools that get the job done, they are in a totally different class, and its MFT cameras that 'totally suck', and this is coming from someone who not only shoots those FF cams mentioned, but also shoots GH3 and EM5 along side. I love the small cameras for portability, but dear god are they miles behind the pro cams at the moment in a whole bunch of operational ways.

I suspect anyone who thinks otherwise really hasn't had to use a pro DSLR in anger.

I shoot events, and usually shoot short lens on one (24-70) and long lens on second one (70-200). The 24-70 is shot at f5.6 to 8.0. The FF advantage of two stops on DOF is negated as I can shoot at f2.8 on M43, at a lower ISO than the FF camera.

A Q then. Why bother lugging around the very large and very heavy 24-70 when you could use say a 24-85 3.5-4.5 or whatever it is which is a fraction of the size/weight? (and probably around half the cost of the 12-40 olympus and probably not THAT far off the same weight either - bet its less than 100g difference, and the nikkor will effectively be faster since the 12-40 is going to be an equivalent 24-80/5.6))

I'll let you know how well the Olympus M-1 stacks up under the conditions I just outlined against my FF cameras. I do own a D3S, along with D700, D800, and D800E.

That's ok, I already pre ordered my EM1 a number of months ago. I am sure it will have many redeeming qualities and I'm hoping I'll really like it, however I know for certain its going to suck compared to a big nikon when shot in anger. But it will be smaller.

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Thomas Karlmann
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Re: 35mm Film is somehow optimal for digital sensors?
In reply to Big Ga, Sep 30, 2013

Big Ga wrote:

Thomas Karlmann wrote:

ApertureAcolyte wrote:

Big Ga wrote:

Jere Landis wrote:

I shot Canon for years and still use a Canon DSLR sometimes. I went over the the Canon forum I used to frequent a lot, guess what, the activity there is not near what it is here. Why do you think that is the case.

Canon and Nikon have had decades to hone and perfect things like the ergonomics of their cameras,

Really? Each to their own. I think the ergonomics of full frame DSLR's just plain suck. They are bloated boat anchors compared to 35mm Film SLR's

I think this is essentially correct. I think the "decades of refinement" went into the 35mm film cameras.

I'm afraid I have to respectfully disagree. But then I'm not 100% sure that we're on the same wavelength here.

My original posts was frankly, a bit of a windup, but with a healthy does of truth in it. My comment quoted above is about ergonomics, and as someone who shoots professionally, where you need to be able to operate the camera quickly, reliably and flexibly in a whole number of situations, then I'm afraid nothing, and I mean NOTHING in MFT comes anywhere NEAR the performance of something like a D3 or 1DS3.

Have you used the OMD E-M1?  What camera are you using to compare with D3 in m4/3?  I also shoot professionally, and I have the greatest respect for the (Dated now)(film) Minolta Maxxum 9 -- which I contend is the best 35mm body ever made; albeit an undersung hero.

I don't disagree that some might call them 'bloated boat anchors', but as tools that get the job done, they are in a totally different class, and its MFT cameras that 'totally suck', and this is coming from someone who not only shoots those FF cams mentioned, but also shoots GH3 and EM5 along side. I love the small cameras for portability, but dear god are they miles behind the pro cams at the moment in a whole bunch of operational ways.

I suspect anyone who thinks otherwise really hasn't had to use a pro DSLR in anger.

OK, so you have/are using GH3 and EM5.  I've not shot either, but I've done lots of arm-chair investigation into the E-M1 -- and think this one is a different beast from the GH3 and EM5, JMO.   D3 or 1DS3 are Miles ahead of E-M1?  I don't think so.  Familiarity-wise, yes.  I would not begin to denigrate a D3 or 1Ds -- that would be silly; but take yet another look at the E-M1.  FWIW:  I can set Histogram Hi & Lo levels in the EVF -- both in different colors and the metered portion of the Histogram is displayed in yet another different color.  Did you look at the way the switch to the left of the EVF works?  It switches 4 controls into another bank -- all completely customizable.  I can also do one touch CWB -- although I do like Canon's approach of taking any photo and making it CWB.  I can twiddle a dial and get the effect of different color filters on the lens for B&W photos.  All this is in a body that is smaller, lighter, less expensive, and weather sealed -- and has a vertical grip!  What do those other FF bodies exactly have that makes them so superior in your thoughts?  Everyone wants to know.  Want to talk lenses?  More Ergo? Speed? Portability? Let's try to get a discussion going here!  Fire away!

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Thom--

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