Cancelled my E-M1 order

Started Sep 26, 2013 | Discussions
wansai
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Re: Cancelled my E-M1 order
In reply to dahod, Sep 28, 2013

i'm not sure i'm understanding what you're trying to say.

are you saying since their marketing is targetted at women, you don't want that association because you're a man?

or are you saying you don't see any future for m4/3 because the lense are software corrected?

either way it seems a little odd to me. how it's marketted should have no bearing on if yu think it's right for you. and how those lenses are corrected shouldn't matter in the least because the IQ is superb from these glass.

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mapgraphs
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Re: A Good Reminder
In reply to Sergey_Green, Sep 28, 2013

Sergey_Green wrote:

erichK wrote:

On the basis of an amateurish interview by a silly , still wet-behind-the-ears little internet publication no one ever heard of before with a Japanese engineering manager who is far from fluent in English?

Nothing new really, it is what it is,

A New Focus for Camera Makers

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- sergey

Thanks for the link. It's a good reminder that the industry noticed this demographic with potential growth a while back.

It is a segment that might want a higher end camera without the size, weight, setup and detail of operation requirements of higher end DSLRs. When you look at what was packed into something like the e-pm1, the decision to market to this demographic becomes clearer.

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erichK
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Re: Here is a good article on the subject
In reply to Sergey_Green, Sep 28, 2013

Sergey_Green wrote:

erichK wrote:

On the basis of an amateurish interview by a silly , still wet-behind-the-ears little internet publication no one ever heard of before with a Japanese engineering manager who is far from fluent in English?

Nothing new really, it is what it is,

A New Focus for Camera Makers

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- sergey

Hilarious...and slightly idiotic.  We agree for a change!

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erichK
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erichK
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Re: Cancelled my E-M1 order
In reply to Anastigmat, Sep 28, 2013

Anastigmat wrote:

The female pros won't be using the EM-1. The amateurs just use a camera phone or smart phone. There is no market among them for the EM-1.

That may be true. I know one prize winning would-like-to-be pro who chronically damaged her wrist and neck using a Nikon F5 and then D3 on freelance assignments. Last I heard from her, she was using a D90 and would have liked to find something smaller, but was afraid the it would make her look less "professional".

Just look at ThikTank's video clips. For new product after new product, the tend to be of a 120-140 pound woman carrying a significant fraction of that weight (and sometimes even size!) in "professional" equipment. Idiotic IMHO.

  1. M4/3 can almost beat APS-C on image quality but wins on portability ("their lenses are so much bigger than ours")

Beating Aps-c is a pipe dream. The NEX cameras are smaller and more portable,

Until you put a lens on them

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erichK
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brianric
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Re: Yep-less than impressive interview
In reply to Olymore, Sep 28, 2013

Olymore wrote:

Without wanting to get into an equivalence discussion, if you're doubling the focal length of the Olympus lenses without doubling the F number in your comparison then you're not comparing like with like.

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Those that understand binary and those that don't.

True is you want narrow DOF. If you're talking exposure M43 wins out on weight. I shoot event type photography with two cameras, 24-70 on one camera and 70-200 on second camera. the 24-70 is usually at f6.3 to 8.0, as I'm shutter preferred at 1/250 and use fill flash. M43 will win hands down on weight issues as subject isolation is not a concern.

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dahod
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Not the intent
In reply to wansai, Sep 28, 2013

At the risk of extending this thread (which is going on far longer than is warranted)

All I'm saying is that Olympus has now identified it's target market and I don't think it's me.  Olympus put some female labels on it and that's their call - I don't care as long as the corporate direction is in sync with my needs.  Now I'm not so sure they are (notice that I'm only saying that "I'm not sure") hence the pause.

The Wall Street Journal article that Sergey posted earlier  (A New Focus For Camera Makers ) is a good summary of the new direction and as Sergey indicates "it is what it is".

Thanks

Dave

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Mr.NoFlash
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Every system has advantages and disadvantages.
In reply to dahod, Sep 28, 2013

Every system has advantages and disadvantages.

This smallness-fetish is THE disadvantage of micro4/3 ( also for me ). not that the E-M1 s to small, but Oly might decide that the E-M1 successor will be smaller again.

On the other hand m43 has ( opposed to samsung and fuji ) a good flash system, ( opposed to sony ) real cameras without toy interface and faster focussing, (opposed to canon M ) a big lens variety, and m43 has antishake and some cameras have a battery grip.

i probably will use 2 mirrorless systems ( m43+NX) when i move from 4/3 to m43, thats my solution. NX has a longer reg distance and APS sensors, so Samsung Nx cannot become as small as m43.

I do not see the long-term future in now going to a dslr system. Those might also go mirrorless in some years and then i have a second transistion.

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CharlesB58
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Re: Makes sense, since the EM1 is a specialty item
In reply to Marty4650, Sep 28, 2013

The EM1 may not have been the camera for you if you are happy with your E3.

This camera was designed for people with a large investment in 4/3 lenses who wanted a way to use them on a more modern camera. If the E3 image quality is good enough for you (and it certainly IS pretty darn good) then why would you want a $1400 camera that doesn't handle as well as they camera you already own?

For people without HG and SHG lenses, then the EM5, GH3, EP5 or GX7 makes much more sense. The EM1 offers virtually no major improvement over those cameras, other than PDAF ability.

I don't plan to get an EM1 either... but I do want that 12-40mm lens.

What some consider "no major improvement" can be enough for others. That's what happens when dealing with "pro" cameras. A minor improvement like better IBIS or expanded wifi capability or the HDR function if the durability can each be worth it to some, or combine with other features to offer a good reason to choose the EM1 over the cameras mentioned. These sorts of features matter to me, but your mileage may vary.
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Marty4650
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Charles, and I agree
In reply to CharlesB58, Sep 28, 2013

All those things Steve listed really are improvements.

But are they enough of an improvement to justify spending $1400 to replace a camera you recently paid $1000 for?

It just depends on you and your circumstance. If you want to use 4/3 PDAF lenses then that could be the best possible reason to spend the money.

The better LCD screen, much better EVF, higher shutter speed, focus peaking, etc, are ALL nice to have, but non really necessary for many of us.

The real problem for Olympus in upgrading the EM5 is... the EM5 is still very near the top of it's class. Eventually, we will get something better, but it will have to be a lot better to get me to part with $1400. There are lenses I would rather buy instead!

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PC Wheeler
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Re: Cancelled my E-M1 order
In reply to dahod, Sep 28, 2013

dahod wrote:

I read the interview with Mr. Terada (http://www.bestmirrorlesscamerareviews.com/2013/09/18/the-om-d-e-m1-new-pro-lenses-and-2014-an-interview-with-olympus-europe/) however, and it left me with a less than warm and fuzzy feeling. I could be reading it wrong and I apologize if I am but my take from it was

  1. 4/3 was a failure because it didn't result in measurably smaller camera/lens combinations - M4/3 will correct that.
  2. His target market is the "young generation with a focus on young females"
  3. He can't figure out how to attract European women buyers but he has a couple of thoughts.

Lower price might help! These days the younger generation, male and female, seems to have problems finding well-paying jobs. Maybe his target is young females with good inheritances

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tinternaut
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Re: Yes, things are what they are
In reply to Sergey_Green, Sep 28, 2013

And what is/are drives innovation, at least today's awful market.  In one sense I like it.  We have innovation.  In another sense, I'm not so sure.  A top notch bit of kit from the 50s, combined with the best of film, should produce a great result, in capable hands.  The calculus of digital is clearly different.  At some point, I thought you could put something film like, but also digital, into an old analogue camera, and get the best of both worlds.  Clearly, (outside of medium format, perhaps) I was wrong.

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Re: Charles, and I agree
In reply to Marty4650, Sep 29, 2013

Marty4650 wrote:

If you want to use 4/3 PDAF lenses then that could be the best possible reason to spend the money.  The better LCD screen, much better EVF, higher shutter speed, focus peaking, etc, are ALL nice to have, but not really necessary for many of us.

The real problem for Olympus in upgrading the EM5 is... the EM5 is still very near the top of it's class. Eventually, we will get something better, but it will have to be a lot better to get me to part with $1400. There are lenses I would rather buy instead!

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Marty
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Yes, Olympus did too good of a job on the E-M5, likely due to their having a near-death experience at the time due to the scandal.  They had to come out with a great camera, or I seriously think they would have been kaput, and the E-M5 pulled them out of that dive, both in terms of corporate image and sales.

Here it is 1 1/2 years later, and it's become something of a legend in mFT circles, the little camera that could.  I've had mine for almost a year and I still absolutely love it, it's simply so far ahead of my E-620 and E-510 in IQ and features, two cameras I also loved dearly.

Tough act to follow, and at $1400, well I'm just not going there (E-M1) at this time.  I'll wait for either the E-M1 to become affordable or Olympus to come out with a less expensive body with many of the same features, which I think is inevitable given the competition.

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brianric
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Re: Charles, and I agree
In reply to sderdiarian, Sep 29, 2013

sderdiarian wrote:

Marty4650 wrote:

If you want to use 4/3 PDAF lenses then that could be the best possible reason to spend the money. The better LCD screen, much better EVF, higher shutter speed, focus peaking, etc, are ALL nice to have, but not really necessary for many of us.

The real problem for Olympus in upgrading the EM5 is... the EM5 is still very near the top of it's class. Eventually, we will get something better, but it will have to be a lot better to get me to part with $1400. There are lenses I would rather buy instead!

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Marty
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Yes, Olympus did too good of a job on the E-M5, likely due to their having a near-death experience at the time due to the scandal. They had to come out with a great camera, or I seriously think they would have been kaput, and the E-M5 pulled them out of that dive, both in terms of corporate image and sales.

Here it is 1 1/2 years later, and it's become something of a legend in mFT circles, the little camera that could. I've had mine for almost a year and I still absolutely love it, it's simply so far ahead of my E-620 and E-510 in IQ and features, two cameras I also loved dearly.

Tough act to follow, and at $1400, well I'm just not going there (E-M1) at this time. I'll wait for either the E-M1 to become affordable or Olympus to come out with a less expensive body with many of the same features, which I think is inevitable given the competition.

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Sailin' Steve

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For someone who does not have an E-M5, the E-M1 makes a compelling reason to acquire one over the E-M5.

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Raist3d
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Re: Cancelled my E-M1 order
In reply to dahod, Sep 29, 2013

dahod wrote:

I got caught up in the hype around the E-M1 - what wasn't to like? - generally favourable reviews, new lenses on the horizon, ability to use my old 4/3 lenses, commitment to m4/3 by Olympus as its future etc etc. At last - Olympus breaks their silence and the world is good.

I read the interview with Mr. Terada (http://www.bestmirrorlesscamerareviews.com/2013/09/18/the-om-d-e-m1-new-pro-lenses-and-2014-an-interview-with-olympus-europe/) however, and it left me with a less than warm and fuzzy feeling. I could be reading it wrong and I apologize if I am but my take from it was

  1. 4/3 was a failure because it didn't result in measurably smaller camera/lens combinations - M4/3 will correct that.

I actually believe this to be a key reason of the problem. But it was Olympus' own fault. They should have never done F2.0 constant Zooms.

  1. His target market is the "young generation with a focus on young females"
  2. He can't figure out how to attract European women buyers but he has a couple of thoughts.
  3. M4/3 can almost beat APS-C on image quality but wins on portability ("their lenses are so much bigger than ours")

Right off the bat, I'm at a disadvantage because I'm certainly neither young nor female. I'm also okay that my E-3 and 50-200 is a big piece of gear - it takes good pictures.

This new Olympus has clearly targeted the "grab your gear and go" market. I'm not saying it won't take good pictures because it will as we've clearly seen. What I am saying though is that the Olympus commitment is now on small, portable and discrete - that's not necessarily my world.

I honestly don't think the E-M1 is targeted at women specifically.

You can say "so what? - the proof is in the pictures". That's true and the pictures are impressive but in order to keep the size down the lenses are all software corrected. There will be no big optically correct lens for this camera - the "Pro" line is it. According to Mr. Terada they "promise to establish the MFT lens line-up at the quality of the current PRO line-up". That's interesting since the 12-40 performance seems to be at or slightly above the 4/3 HG 12-60 level (albeit at constant aperture).

I think I'll wait and see how this unfolds. In the meantime I'll take Art_P's advice and look for an E-5. I want the fine focus that Olympus for some unknown reason took off my E-3

Thanks

Dave

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Raist3d
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Re: you guys are just hilarious
In reply to g_r_w, Sep 29, 2013

g_r_w wrote:

klauser wrote:

some blogger posts snipplets of a discussion with Terada, there is mentioning of female buyers and boom size inferiority complex kicks in (sensor size and other things that I don't want to think of).

I also met Mr Terada and when he held his presentation he was hammering (even though hammering is hardly a appropriate term to be associated with the soft spoken Terada with his fine sense of humor) about best IQ, best IQ, on par or better IQ than aps-c, IQ still trailing "ff" regarding shallow dof and low light, but always with a much better portability than the other systems. Now what's wrong with that, guys?

If you do need those extra 5 percent of IQ and you don't mind portability restrictions interfering with the other 95 percent of IQ, no worries, go and get ff. You will probably love it.

k.

+1 - from what I've seen it is either as good or noticeably better than APS-C.

It's not. It doesn't match K-5's and it doesn't match Fuji Xtrans.  That still said, so what? Both systems have their advantages.  I call this the 4/3rds/ m4/3rds inferiority complex. Accept it's not as good as IQ wise on the sensor, and move on. It doesn't make the system useless or bad by any stretch.  It's all about trade offs.

There is a discernible difference between it and 35mm equiv when viewed side-by-side. I question whether most people would notice with no comparison shot though.

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Raist3d
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It never was? That's one of the things Olympus said themselves!
In reply to boggis the cat, Sep 29, 2013

Just when did you jump into 4/3rds? With the E-5? The E-3?

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Raist3d
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Yes, they did. At least on launch
In reply to boggis the cat, Sep 29, 2013

Here, from the past, an official Olympus press release:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2002/9/24/olydak43inch

"4/3-Inch Image Sensor Size

The Four Thirds System uses a 4/3-type CCD or other image sensor, and will facilitate the development of dedicated digital camera lens systems that maximizes the image sensor performance to ensure outstanding image quality while also being smaller than 35 mm film SLR camera lens systems."

(emphasis mine). This was one of the Unique Selling Propositions.

"Benefits

The major benefit of Four Thirds System is that it will allow the design of dedicated, high-performance digital camera lens systems that are more compact than their 35 mm film SLR camera lens counterparts. The impact of the more compact lens size will be especially marked on telephoto lenses"

(emphasis mine).

This is a 2001 OLYMPUS (joint with Kodak) Press release announcing the 4/3rds system.

Size size size. They lost the plot with the SHG and E-3. Notice how they are *NOT* doing F2.0  zoom lenses with m4/3rds.

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SirSeth
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Re: Wow!!
In reply to dahod, Sep 29, 2013

dahod wrote:

I was out of town for a few days and just came back to this - surprised is a bit of an understatement.

First off I apologize to anyone I offended - I hate to see anyone get so wound up

Second - as I mentioned, I could be wrong (actually, I'm often wrong).

Third - my take on the interview is still the same - for Olympus, big is now bad. That position has given us software corrected lenses and a PRO line that might be at the 4/3 HG level. That seems to be okay with everybody.

What are you doing dave?  (I've always wanted to say that).

Anyhow, I agree with you that, for Olympus, big is bad. But my take is that, it's not a new self-awareness that has brought them to this point. Big is bad for business because it pits them against cameras that boast bigger sensors without a real advantage in body size. "Here buy this. It's the same size or larger than that camera over there that has a bigger sensor." It's proved a very hard pill for the majority of the photographic world to swallow. So yeah, big is bad for Olympus. Most people want smaller cameras and it's the only way they are going to give concessions to a smaller sensor inside.

On the next point, I'm curious to know why software correction is a problem for you. It works perfectly. To me it's similar--in effect--to how lens coatings and aspherical elements correct for other distortions. I suppose a more apt parallel might be noise reduction. Is that a problem? Would having software noise correction prevent you from buying a camera? I don't know of any pro cameras that don't have this. That's my perspective, but if you have a different point of view that I'm not thinking of, I'm interested to hear it.

Fourth - you might ask why I went 4/3 in the first place then. In response, Olympus had everything I was looking for - rugged magnesium body, weathersealed, reasonably priced great lenses, generally well thought out lens roadmap with promises to fill the holes, in-camera stabilization and an articulated LCD. I'm still happy with the choice I made.

These are the same reasons I went with 4/3rds. It was really the only sealed system under $4000 when I purchased the E-1 + 14-54mm. It is certainly why I am very keen on the E-M1--all the reasons above for getting into 4/3rds apply to the E-M1.

I had skipped the E-5 in anticipation of it's replacement. The E-M1 comes with a couple of caveats that I hadn't expected however. With the camera, lens, adapter, battery holder, flash and three extra batteries I'm looking at north of $3200 - not unreasonable for what you're getting but a lot of money for me so I need to be sure.

Yeah, wow, $3200 is a chunk. So if software correction in lenses is an issue and size is not, don't you have all the 4/3rds lenses still to match with the E-M1? If you value those great 4/3rds lenses, and don't mind a little extra size/weight why not stick with your lenses + an E-M1 with grip? But as you said, that's a lot of money. For me too. Since you want to be sure, there is no harm in waiting until you can handle one and see if it fits. Personally, I'll be waiting until I can afford the E-M1. My budget keeps me from being an early adopter--and there have been some real advantages to waiting for cameras to more closely match my budget.

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to respond - sorry it raised so many emotions.

Dave

Glad to talk with you, Dave. There are always folks on forums who will just spout off emotionally. I try not to sweat it knowing the internet brings out the crazies. Youtube comments, for example, are clear indicators that "survival of the fittest" isn't working.

Cheers,

Seth

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boggis the cat
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Selective reading fail
In reply to Raist3d, Sep 29, 2013

Raist3d wrote:

Here, from the past, an official Olympus press release:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2002/9/24/olydak43inch

"4/3-Inch Image Sensor Size

The Four Thirds System uses a 4/3-type CCD or other image sensor, and will facilitate the development of dedicated digital camera lens systems that maximizes the image sensor performance to ensure outstanding image quality while also being smaller than 35 mm film SLR camera lens systems."

(emphasis mine). This was one of the Unique Selling Propositions.

You need to understand that the second part you emphasise goes with the first part: "... maximizes the image sensor performance to ensure outstanding image quality while also being smaller than 35 mm film SLR camera lens systems."

"Benefits

The major benefit of Four Thirds System is that it will allow the design of dedicated, high-performance digital camera lens systems that are more compact than their 35 mm film SLR camera lens counterparts. The impact of the more compact lens size will be especially marked on telephoto lenses"

(emphasis mine).

Again, look at the entire sentence.

This is a 2001 OLYMPUS (joint with Kodak) Press release announcing the 4/3rds system.

Size size size. They lost the plot with the SHG and E-3.

No, they didn't.  The SHG lenses are smaller than equivalent EFL lenses on 135 (much smaller) and also a stop faster.

This provides an option for people who want a system that can yield a different size to performance ratio -- an optimisation based on designing an entirely new system.

Notice how they are *NOT* doing F2.0 zoom lenses with m4/3rds.

The 'PRO' line so far has two constant f/2.8 lenses.  Smaller than equivalent EFL lenses for 135 and APS-C, and it appears that they will perform better as well.  Olympus could always release a "TOP PRO" line later if they believe it is required (smaller and cheaper than SHG, given reliance on software correction and technical advances made in the interim), but in the meantime the existing f/2 SHG zooms can be used.

It is interesting that Sigma have started producing f/1.8 zooms for APS-C and Fufifilm are making fast zooms for their "X" system.  Would you argue that this is a mistake?

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boggis the cat
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Re: No, it never was
In reply to sderdiarian, Sep 29, 2013

sderdiarian wrote:

Macx wrote:

In the 500- and 400-series Olympus had a much easier sell in that here was a palpable advantage for the user from using a smaller sensor: A smaller camera. I think Olympus is right in thinking that the "full size" lenses and cameras was a disadvantage to them in the marketplace.

Yes, and they desperately need a full-featured body to play in this class now. With their range of small lenses, it could compete very well with the D5200, giving consumers a true choice that should go Olympus' way on convenience alone.

I don't expect any more DSLRs from Olympus.

What will happen, however, is that the E-M1 sensor will be 'inherited' by low-priced MicroFT bodies, so you could buy an E-PLx or E-PMx in future to use with any old SG lenses you have.

If Panasonic also goes the on-sensor PAF route then that gets even more interesting with GX7 style options.

That's not saying that nobody wanted that size lenses and bodies for 4:3. That would be demonstrably false, but I think the direction Olympus is going with their micro four-thirds is the right one: You can go tiny, and you can go larger, and the E-M1 with grip is still a substantial camera even if it's still smaller than a lot of DSLRs. I definitely see it as a spiritual successor to the E-1 that I fell in love with. It lacks the OVF, but the EVF has its clear advantages too.

I see it more as the E-xxx on steroids that many of us were asking for back in the day of 4/3's. As others have pointed out, the E-M1 is almost identical to the E-620 in height, width and weight, but adds in weathersealing, a modern sensor, the E-510 grip for larger lenses and finally access to some great compact primes. In many ways a perfect camera provided you're willing to pay the premium (which I feel is $200 too high, but whatever).

It is way higher specified across the board.  The only similarity is the size and weight, and even then the E-M1 has a more substantive grip.

Yes, the micro-four thirds range is smaller, but I don't think there is any need for hand-wringing about it being targeted to gurls and not burly men's men: From all accounts so far the E-M1 is a solid piece of kit that'll work well for both genders.

Hey, nobody but us pays any attention to what Olympus says in any case, most don't even know they exist other than as some fringe camera company they never see on store shelves or in ads.

I have noticed that the E-M5 has led to a bit of a come-back on local retail shelves.

Only those willing to dig thru reviews or who are OM users from way back know of them, their now being sold almost exclusively through internet vendors.

Point is, Terade's quote on "designed for women" is inconsequential other than as fodder for some laughs by this and the mFT forums. Sadly, their lack of visibility is helping them on this one .

They will do better with the E-M1 and 'PRO' lenses than they did with the E-x / E-30 and HG lenses, I believe.  It also helps by creating a high-end presence for the PENs to coat-tail on.

While I am a bit disgruntled over the death of standard FT bodies (although the lenses are likely to live on in production for a while yet) it seems like they have indeed reached a suitable point to make that break.

I would not buy an E-7 over the E-M1, and too few people would.  The 'PRO' lens line looks like addressing my desire for better native MicoFT zooms.  So I am happy about the direction and decisions overall.

 boggis the cat's gear list:boggis the cat's gear list
Olympus E-5 Olympus E-M1 Olympus Zuiko Digital ED 12-60mm 1:2.8-4.0 SWD Olympus Zuiko Digital ED 50-200mm 1:2.8-3.5 SWD Olympus 12-40mm F2.8 +7 more
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