Cancelled my E-M1 order

Started 10 months ago | Discussions
CharlesB58
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Re: Not shiny enough...?
In reply to AccidntlTourist, 10 months ago

AccidntlTourist wrote:

I will keep my order in place but if the camera does not show a large improvement over my E-520 in S-AF and C-AF it is going back and my 4/3rds lenses will be up for sale.

Pretty much everything I've read suggests that E-M1 focusing with 4/3 lenses will be about the same. In other words you are unlikely to see a "large improvement"!

Robin Wong:

EXPECTATIONS VS REALITY”

"… the older Four Thirds DSLR lenses were running on a completely different system (Phase Detect AF), and even at their fastest and most efficient focusing, being mounted on the DSLR E-5 (which I am very familiar with), still falls behind the Micro Four Thirds' focusing speed. No Four Thirds lens previously had anything that can focus as fast as whatever the newer Micro Four Thirds lenses can do! I personally would love to have the older lenses miraculously perform as well as the Micro Four Thirds lenses in terms of AF speed, but let's face the reality: I have just established that it is not practical in any logical sense."

"… the Four Thirds lenses, even at their most efficient state, will not outdo the faster, newer and more technologically advanced AF system in the Micro Four Thirds lenses, …"

http://robinwong.blogspot.com.au/

Time to sell?

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Will -

I don't think you are understanding the point. The m4/3 lenses are of course going to focus much faster than 4/3 lenses: almost instantaneously in some cases. That is not the same as saying that the 4/3 lenses focus unsatisfactorily.

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CollBaxter
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Re: Yep-less than impressive interview
In reply to Olymore, 10 months ago

Olymore wrote:

I find it amusing that you think that the E system was in anyway 'professional'.
As it offered no advantage over larger sensor systems which had better IQ, far more comprehensive support, more lenses and accessories and far better stock availability, most professionals wisely remained with, or migrated to APSC or FF.

Correct me if I am mistaken a lot of the Professionals here moved over the the E-M5 ( Note I say E-M5 and not m4/3) . I also note  that some of them still shoot with the E-5/30/3. Check it out.

And ironically far more professionals seem to be adopting m43 than the E system simply because it has an advantage of low weight and small size over the larger sensor systems but with IQ very close to APSC.

There where and are pro's shooting with the E-5 . A pro  posted his disgust at Olympus for dropping 4/3 and was servilely  castigated here. No wonder no pro's post here.

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Olymore
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Re: Yep-less than impressive interview
In reply to CollBaxter, 10 months ago

There were some pros shooting with the E system but not many.
The main advantage of using a smaller sensor is so you can create a smaller system. And the E system failed to achieve that in a significant way.

And I know Olympus lenses are (broadly speaking) better but they have to be because of the smaller sensor. When normalised for lines per picture height against FF cameras they perform worse due to the greater magnification required.

So the only real advantage that Olympus could offer over a larger sensor is size and weight with acceptable picture quality. And they failed to realise that advantage.

Now they are starting to lever their USP  with m43 and you get people here posting ridicilous comments that they are only 'for girls' and taking Terada's comments out of context.

And quite frankly given that females make up half the population it would be a wise move of Oly to aim for that part of the market anyway.

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Mephistopheles*
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Re: misinterpreting the interview--enthusiast cameras still the core of Olympus strategy
In reply to dahod, 10 months ago

dahod wrote:


  1. His target market is the "young generation with a focus on young females"
  2. He can't figure out how to attract European women buyers but he has a couple of thoughts.

Right off the bat, I'm at a disadvantage because I'm certainly neither young nor female.

Terada never used the word "target market", and never suggested marketing to young females was to the exclusion of other groups.  In fact, his other comments in the interview about spending so much time and energy on developing the E-M1 and how its success with enthusiasts/pros may trickle down to other models because others ask such people for advice, makes clear that enthusiast/pro cameras are viewed as central to the company's success.

Jim

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WhyNot
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Probably won't order
In reply to dahod, 10 months ago

After reading the interview I had two impressions. Olympus will pursue SE Asia as their primary market and will continue to downsize their cameras as much as practical. Olympus has a history of making instruments smaller from film days to mFT. For an Endoscope this is a great strategy but for cameras I'm not sure that one size fits all.....I would like a E-xxx sized body for HG lenses – I use the ZD14-54 on the GX1 but it is a lens with a camera attached and not as fluid to use as it is on an E-520, for me....So I think I might like a GH3 sized body but I guess the E-M1 is as big as Olympus cameras will get and even the flagship model may be smaller in the future, so I'll hold on to what I have for now and watch, but will probably have to consider alternatives when I have to upgrade or replace the E-30.... ….. If I can't put it in a pocket then I won't compromise on ergonomics. I actually bought into Olympus FTs partially because of its ergonomics....

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Kevin Sutton
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Re: Probably won't order
In reply to WhyNot, 10 months ago

WhyNot wrote:

After reading the interview I had two impressions. Olympus will pursue SE Asia as their primary market and will continue to downsize their cameras as much as practical. Olympus has a history of making instruments smaller from film days to mFT. For an Endoscope this is a great strategy but for cameras I'm not sure that one size fits all.....I would like a E-xxx sized body for HG lenses – I use the ZD14-54 on the GX1 but it is a lens with a camera attached and not as fluid to use as it is on an E-520, for me....So I think I might like a GH3 sized body but I guess the E-M1 is as big as Olympus cameras will get and even the flagship model may be smaller in the future, so I'll hold on to what I have for now and watch, but will probably have to consider alternatives when I have to upgrade or replace the E-30.... ….. If I can't put it in a pocket then I won't compromise on ergonomics. I actually bought into Olympus FTs partially because of its ergonomics....

The E-M1 IS E-xxx sized...

Cheers Kevin 

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Anastigmat
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Re: Cancelled my E-M1 order
In reply to dahod, 10 months ago

dahod wrote:

I read the interview with Mr. Terada (http://www.bestmirrorlesscamerareviews.com/2013/09/18/the-om-d-e-m1-new-pro-lenses-and-2014-an-interview-with-olympus-europe/) however, and it left me with a less than warm and fuzzy feeling. I could be reading it wrong and I apologize if I am but my take from it was

  1. 4/3 was a failure because it didn't result in measurably smaller camera/lens combinations - M4/3 will correct that.

That is the god awful truth. People are unwilling to put up with a smaller sensor without any real savings in size, weight, or price.

  1. His target market is the "young generation with a focus on young females"

Most of them use camera phones, and may not find it necessary to lug even a compact camera around, let alone something as big as the EM-1.

  1. He can't figure out how to attract European women buyers but he has a couple of thoughts.

The female pros won't be using the EM-1. The amateurs just use a camera phone or smart phone.  There is no market among them for the EM-1.

  1. M4/3 can almost beat APS-C on image quality but wins on portability ("their lenses are so much bigger than ours")

Beating Aps-c is a pipe dream.  The NEX cameras are smaller and more portable, and they have aps-c sensors.

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WhyNot
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Re: Probably won't order
In reply to Kevin Sutton, 10 months ago

Kevin Sutton wrote:

WhyNot wrote:

....

The E-M1 IS E-xxx sized...

Cheers Kevin

Thanks, you're right I went back a checked and it is just 6mm shorter and about the same weight as the E-520.  I had begun to think it was closer to the E-M5 than to the E-520...  On the other hand, I'll probably still sit back and listen to the discussion after it has been delivered, tried and the discussion heats up here ..... and over at the mFT forum.

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Kevin Sutton
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Re: Probably won't order
In reply to WhyNot, 10 months ago

WhyNot wrote:

Kevin Sutton wrote:

WhyNot wrote:

....

The E-M1 IS E-xxx sized...

Cheers Kevin

Thanks, you're right I went back a checked and it is just 6mm shorter and about the same weight as the E-520. I had begun to think it was closer to the E-M5 than to the E-520... On the other hand, I'll probably still sit back and listen to the discussion after it has been delivered, tried and the discussion heats up here ..... and over at the mFT forum.

Hi

Pretty much the same size as the E-620 I think, but a bit less weight.

Cheers  Kevin  

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Marty4650
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You are dreaming
In reply to Anastigmat, 10 months ago

Anastigmat wrote:

dahod wrote:

I read the interview with Mr. Terada (http://www.bestmirrorlesscamerareviews.com/2013/09/18/the-om-d-e-m1-new-pro-lenses-and-2014-an-interview-with-olympus-europe/) however, and it left me with a less than warm and fuzzy feeling. I could be reading it wrong and I apologize if I am but my take from it was

  1. 4/3 was a failure because it didn't result in measurably smaller camera/lens combinations - M4/3 will correct that.

That is the god awful truth. People are unwilling to put up with a smaller sensor without any real savings in size, weight, or price.

Believe it or not, there really was a 4/3 savings in terms of size, weight, and cost. It just wasn't a big enough savings to offset the loss of image quality that larger sensors provided.

M4/3 pretty much corrected this. You can now get almost the same image quality (and in some cases better) than you can from an APSC camera in a considerably smaller and lighter package. And it can even be cheaper, based on which current generation cameras you are comparing.

  1. His target market is the "young generation with a focus on young females"

Most of them use camera phones, and may not find it necessary to lug even a compact camera around, let alone something as big as the EM-1.

  1. He can't figure out how to attract European women buyers but he has a couple of thoughts.

The female pros won't be using the EM-1. The amateurs just use a camera phone or smart phone. There is no market among them for the EM-1.

There are all sorts of pros, and all different types of amateurs. If you think the EM1 can be replaced by a cell phone, then you are choosing to ignore reality.

  1. M4/3 can almost beat APS-C on image quality but wins on portability ("their lenses are so much bigger than ours")

Beating Aps-c is a pipe dream. The NEX cameras are smaller and more portable, and they have aps-c sensors.

NEX cameras really are generally smaller than M4/3 cameras, but some are not. The A3000 is relatively large and heavy when compared to an Olympus EM5, so these generalizations are sometimes silly, and often wrong.

The newest Sony NEX 3N is actually the same size and weight as an Olympus EPM2. But once you put a lens on it, it suddenly becomes much larger, heavier, and more expensive:

The only "NEX advantage" is if you can somehow shoot pictures without using a lens!

As far as image quality goes, I really can't see much difference between the EPM2 and similar NEX cameras. Compare them at ISO 1600, and see for yourself...

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GBC
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Re: Yep-less than impressive interview
In reply to Olymore, 10 months ago

Of topic I know, but your Sig doesn't make sense.

I understand binary, and there are 4 possible outcomes with a 2 bit number.

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Olymore
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Re: Yep-less than impressive interview
In reply to GBC, 10 months ago

10 equals 2 in binary. So 2 types of people ?

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GBC
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Re: Yep-less than impressive interview
In reply to Olymore, 10 months ago

It is correct for big endian or little endian binary, I forget which is which.

Can you expand on your statement about the lenses and increase magnification, I don't follow what you are saying.

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Olymore
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Re: Yep-less than impressive interview
In reply to GBC, 10 months ago

It would be big endian.
If you think about the final image and for argument sake think of a sensor the size of a postage stamp and another one the size of a postcode.

And you want to make an equal sized print out of them (say 10x8).

The lens in front of the postage stamp image will need to resolve far more detail than the lens in front of the postcard sensor because to produce the final image the detail will have to be increased by a far greater number of times than the postcard sized sensor.

Plus any aberrations will  be magnified to a greater degree

It doesn't matter whether the image is made up of pixels or analogue film the results are the same.

So a relatively poorly resolving lens on the postcard sized sensor will outperform a high performing lens on the postage stamp sized sensor.

The principle is the same on the lenses that are used on m43 compared to the lenses that are used on FF though obviously not to the same degree.

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unknown member
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"Girl's" Camera
In reply to dahod, 10 months ago

I'm drooling over that EM-1. Can't afford it though. But I've never wanted a "Girl's Camera" so bad in my life. That camera is hot. Looks a lot like my OM-2S and focuses my 4/3 lenses. I'll gladly dress up like a young female if they kindly gift me a brand new EM-1.

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CharlesB58
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Re: You DO remember
In reply to CollBaxter, 10 months ago

CollBaxter wrote:

ptox wrote:

ApertureAcolyte wrote:

I quote the OP:

"Right off the bat, I'm at a disadvantage because I'm certainly neither young nor female."

lol gtfo, where do these people come up with this nonsense?? Talk about extreme hyperbole!!!!

You DO remember where you're posting?

Anyway, I had to laugh at that as well. What a flake! -- cancelling his order of a camera he presumably wants because of an executive's poorly expressed thoughts in a single, totally irrelevant interview.

Not very manly and pragmatic of him...

Toxic P

You Sir are rude with these continual narcissistic remarks.

The OP expressed an opinion and a reason for his actions . It does no require a personal attack.

Hell this is just about cameras not all are as virally eloquent as some would like to think they are.

Ieeeeeesh

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Ah yes Collin, I can agree that some don't need to be so acerbic. On the other hand, you have to admit that not discerning the difference between design and marketing as expressed in this interview makes one wonder whether the OP simply doesn't fully grasp the difference or is possibly biased. Like it or not, gear oriented camera clutches have a lot of "enthusiasts" whose hubris leads them to think that they drive both the design and marketing decisions of their favored brand.

The fact is nearly all products that are not already gender specific are marketed to various demographics in different ways. In the US we saw 3 different types of PEN commercials. One was a youth oriented spot that  featured a lovely young Asian model slowly pulling a PEN out of a pocket and snapping a photo. "Ah yes," thinks the trendy young woman seeing that commercial. Another spot was Kevin Spacey talking about how he doesn't want to look like a tourist (meaning people with either big DSLR kits or chintzy little P&S cameras), so he prefers the PEN. Finally there was a stop motion commercial geared toward families. Same camera,different approaches. Only too many people on forums like this don't stop to think beyond what seems obvious to them...

To me, if the OP can't figure out, and is put off by, the idea that the "female oriented marketing" probably involves pushing cameras such as the EPM2 in a certain way, and perhaps the EM1 in another way, rather than speaking about design philosophy, then perhaps he is in fact better off cancelling his order, and even selling the gear he has and buying assault rifles or tools to restore cars in order to maintain a more masculine hobby.

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boggis the cat
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Re: The question is not in price, the question is if you need it ..
In reply to Sergey_Green, 10 months ago

Sergey_Green wrote:

boggis the cat wrote:

The D800 is US$2800 on B&H Photo (includes a $200 rebate), vs. US$1400 for the E-M1. Then you have to put very high-end lenses on the D800 to get the best out of it.

You'd be looking at paying at least twice the price and have a system at least twice as heavy and much larger. That is the trade-off.

But that is the same as buying lenses for the same system. The same focal length will double-triple in cost if it is only a stop faster. Say you like f/5.6 lenses instead of f/2.8 lenses, nothing's wrong with it, but I am not sure I can relate to it. Personally I would find the first rather boring, even though it is lighter and easier to carry. Multiply this by few, and you get quite a price difference.

And the same goes for the camera. If you look further than good-enough, it is not difficult to see that 36mpx FF is not the same as 16mpx FT. There goes your price.

It comes down to whether a smaller, less expensive, system will do what you need.

(I think that was your point.)

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Underdog 3000
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Re: Cancelled my E-M1 order
In reply to exdeejjjaaaa, 10 months ago

So, ther are 2 good lenses to choose from?

Just asking because I'm considering follwwwwinng the Hyype liiigghht and making a substantial switch to Olympus (sorry too many times watching 'Wreck it Ralph" with the kids).

Seriously, lens choice and 3rd party involvement, not to mention the recent financial scandal has me worried about Olympus.  But then again, you can't argue with the IQ I see in the comparisons.

I'm just tired of my K-5 turning pink into magenta - did I mention I have 2 daughters?

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boggis the cat
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Opinion is no substitute for facts
In reply to rovingtim, 10 months ago

rovingtim wrote:

boggis the cat wrote:

Okay, let's break this down shall we?

Main Benefits:

  • 100% Digital Concept -- Digital dedicated design optimizes performance of the image sensor

If we drop the first part we end up with this: "design optimizes performance of the image sensor". This statement describes the goal of every single camera manufacturer out there. Their marketing all describe their unique 'way' of doing it. And it all is pretty much mumbo jumbo.

Except that FT was designed from scratch.  Olympus were not devising a way to attach a digital sensor to a 135 film system.

  • High Mobility -- Compact design maximises camera mobility

This is what everyone tests the 4/3rds system for (except for the few chosen from this forum). Even DPReview. Didn't you see Olympus' 4/3rds launch campaign? It was all about size with competitive quality. It was never quality and incidentally we used a small sensor. If IQ is the goal, why use a small sensor?

Do you understand what 'optimal' means?

Oly's eagerness for demonstrating their compactness helped set off the equivalent wars. Oly kept accidentally only using focal length when describing their size advantage.

Can you point to any manufacturer giving 'equivalent DOF'?  No, you can't.

"Equivalence" is a pointless exercise, and most people understand that.

For example, in the link I attached Oly says "Both photographs above were taken using the same angle of view and F-number" while comparing imaging problems. Well, this means the Oly lens was effectively stopped down two stops for this comparison. Shockingly, when you stop down a comparable FF lens two stops, the imaging problems also disappear.

Perhaps it would with the latest designs.  The cost difference problem remains, however, in many cases.

Funny that. Do you think it was [ insert mumbo jumbo here ] that achieved this for FF? What say you?

I say that you have a very limited memory when it comes to photography.

  • Open Standard -- Ensures expandability and compatibility of products from different manufacturers

In the end, this didn't ensure anything, did it?

Didn't Panasonic also build bodies and lenses, and didn't they subsequently create MicroFT based on the same concept?  That we can now continue to use our 'over engineered' standard FT lenses on?

You may want to ensure that both of your eyes are open, Tim.

Sure.

I was talking about large format film, not a compact 35mm camera.

You may wish to consider the total costs of producing each photo, in that case.

What price for astounding quality? Anyway, the OP said he wanted manly and big. Maybe he also wants manly and big costs to go with his manly big equipment.

But even so, the D800 does not lack features and its only a few hundred quid cheaper than the EM1.

The D800 is US$2800 on B&H Photo (includes a $200 rebate), vs. US$1400 for the E-M1. Then you have to put very high-end lenses on the D800 to get the best out of it.

Yep. I screwed up here. I meant "a few hundred quid more expensive".

Double the cost.

You'd be looking at paying at least twice the price and have a system at least twice as heavy and much larger. That is the trade-off.

That's why I don't want one. But the manly OP does.

No, he wants an 'E-7' in preference to an E-M1.  Unfortunately, Olympus would have a hard time breaking even on producing such a body given the minimal advantages it would offer, so they have elected not to do so.

This does not mean that his desires are somehow 'wrong', Tim -- just that he has different desires, and possibly actual needs, than yours (or mine).

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Braxton7
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Re: Hello Kitty
In reply to boggis the cat, 10 months ago

boggis the cat wrote:

No, he wants an 'E-7' in preference to an E-M1. Unfortunately, Olympus would have a hard time breaking even on producing such a body given the minimal advantages it would offer, so they have elected not to do so.

This does not mean that his desires are somehow 'wrong', Tim -- just that he has different desires, and possibly actual needs, than yours (or mine).

LOL Does it come in pink? Olympus is way behind Pentax in this area although I look for this soon.

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