Thom Hogan: DSLR versus Mirrorless

Started 7 months ago | Discussions
MichaelKJ
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,011Gear list
Like?
Thom Hogan: DSLR versus Mirrorless
7 months ago

So where does all this put us? Tally it up. No advantage in sensor, image processing, shutter, frame rates, buffer, features, or potential advances to either DSLR or mirrorless. Clear disadvantage at the moment to mirrorless in power. Gap closing rapidly in viewing system and focus. And Size doesn't really have to be a relevant issue other than sensor size choice and all that implies.

Conclusion: we're actually very near the point where DSLRs will simply transition to mirrorless for most users. And not that far from the point where DSLRs will go mirrorless for all users.

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/dslr-versus-mirrorless.html

 MichaelKJ's gear list:MichaelKJ's gear list
Fujifilm FinePix F31fd Olympus PEN E-PL1 Olympus OM-D E-M5 +1 more
Photato
Senior MemberPosts: 1,791Gear list
Like?
Mirrorless optical superiority is missing!
In reply to MichaelKJ, 7 months ago

He forgot the most important part.

Mirrorless optical superiority.

Especially so with wide angle lenses, due to the much shorter flange distance.

Did he mentioned cost and reliability, mirrorless being simpler, as having less moving parts?

 Photato's gear list:Photato's gear list
Canon ELPH 500 HS Canon EOS M Apple iPad Mini +1 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
nevada5
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,880Gear list
Like?
Re: Thom Hogan: DSLR versus Mirrorless
In reply to MichaelKJ, 7 months ago

MichaelKJ wrote:

So where does all this put us? Tally it up. No advantage in sensor, image processing, shutter, frame rates, buffer, features, or potential advances to either DSLR or mirrorless. Clear disadvantage at the moment to mirrorless in power. Gap closing rapidly in viewing system and focus. And Size doesn't really have to be a relevant issue other than sensor size choice and all that implies.

Conclusion: we're actually very near the point where DSLRs will simply transition to mirrorless for most users. And not that far from the point where DSLRs will go mirrorless for all users.

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/dslr-versus-mirrorless.html

A number of us here were shooting before autofocus was even dreamed of.  After it was implemented a large number of photographers continued to focus manually.  Scan the forums and you see many people love to use old legacy lenses and manually focus.

I'm sure most system-wide changes take a similar course.  When all other things are equal, mirrorless will likely be the norm.  But how many people will refuse to give up the OVF and the sound of a mirror slapping?  At least a few.  DSLR's may still be made as a niche-type item.

-- hide signature --

Life is short - drive a convertible.
Tolerance is the last virtue of a dying society. Aristotle

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
EinsteinsGhost
Senior MemberPosts: 8,864Gear list
Like?
Re: Thom Hogan: DSLR versus Mirrorless
In reply to MichaelKJ, 7 months ago

MichaelKJ wrote:

So where does all this put us? Tally it up. No advantage in sensor, image processing, shutter, frame rates, buffer, features, or potential advances to either DSLR or mirrorless. Clear disadvantage at the moment to mirrorless in power. Gap closing rapidly in viewing system and focus. And Size doesn't really have to be a relevant issue other than sensor size choice and all that implies.

Conclusion: we're actually very near the point where DSLRs will simply transition to mirrorless for most users. And not that far from the point where DSLRs will go mirrorless for all users.

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/dslr-versus-mirrorless.html

The frame rate advantage, for example, is highly dependent on where mirror-less AF system goes. Mirror-less bodies already have an edge in frame rate (not necessarily in buffer size, but that is another issue) but the issue is with a work in progress: AF. At some point when it develops to meet mirror-based PDAF in terms of speed (and expected to have an edge in accuracy), continuous AF and tracking would be real-time with less reliance on predictive algorithm.

Size and weight are and will be an advantage even in many forms of mirror-less, as would be lowering the number of mechanical parts. Once the mirror-less mounts establish themselves, and the technology they need matures over next few years, the masses will begin to recognize the value and will show a shift.

 EinsteinsGhost's gear list:EinsteinsGhost's gear list
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-F828 Sony SLT-A55 Sony Alpha NEX-6 Sigma 18-250mm F3.5-6.3 DC OS HSM Sony 135mm F2.8 (T4.5) STF +12 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Donald Chin
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,061Gear list
Like?
Re: Mirrorless optical superiority is missing!
In reply to Photato, 7 months ago

Photato wrote:

He forgot the most important part.

Mirrorless optical superiority.

Especially so with wide angle lenses, due to the much shorter flange distance.

Did he mentioned cost and reliability, mirrorless being simpler, as having less moving parts?

Is such a lens available now for mirrorless? 

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
69chevy
Senior MemberPosts: 1,330
Like?
Re: Thom Hogan: DSLR versus Mirrorless
In reply to MichaelKJ, 7 months ago

MichaelKJ wrote:

So where does all this put us? Tally it up. No advantage in sensor, image processing, shutter, frame rates, buffer, features, or potential advances to either DSLR or mirrorless. Clear disadvantage at the moment to mirrorless in power. Gap closing rapidly in viewing system and focus. And Size doesn't really have to be a relevant issue other than sensor size choice and all that implies.

Conclusion: we're actually very near the point where DSLRs will simply transition to mirrorless for most users. And not that far from the point where DSLRs will go mirrorless for all users.

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/dslr-versus-mirrorless.html

http://www.dcresource.com/forums/showthread.php?12150-DSLRs-will-be-made-obsolete-by-fixed-lens-cameras&s=34f6d4cbbbf7ee9b87c16a55c65a7edb

From 8 years ago....

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
DT200
Contributing MemberPosts: 835
Like?
Electronic shutters
In reply to MichaelKJ, 7 months ago

MichaelKJ wrote:

So where does all this put us? Tally it up. No advantage in sensor, image processing, shutter, frame rates, buffer, features, or potential advances to either DSLR or mirrorless. Clear disadvantage at the moment to mirrorless in power. Gap closing rapidly in viewing system and focus. And Size doesn't really have to be a relevant issue other than sensor size choice and all that implies.

Conclusion: we're actually very near the point where DSLRs will simply transition to mirrorless for most users. And not that far from the point where DSLRs will go mirrorless for all users.

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/dslr-versus-mirrorless.html

Sadly you can't use and electronic shutter with and OVF.  There are already mirrorless cameras with electronic shutter options (no moving parts) that currently have some nice uses (wildlife, churches, etc).
Once that is improved and sensors can dump a whole image quickly to a buffer, it will be all over.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
MichaelKJ
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,011Gear list
Like?
Re: Mirrorless optical superiority is missing!
In reply to Donald Chin, 7 months ago

Donald Chin wrote:

Photato wrote:

He forgot the most important part.

Mirrorless optical superiority.

Especially so with wide angle lenses, due to the much shorter flange distance.

Did he mentioned cost and reliability, mirrorless being simpler, as having less moving parts?

Is such a lens available now for mirrorless?

One of his points was that he sees Nikon and Canon moving to FF mirrorless cameras that use their current lenses.

 MichaelKJ's gear list:MichaelKJ's gear list
Fujifilm FinePix F31fd Olympus PEN E-PL1 Olympus OM-D E-M5 +1 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Erik Magnuson
Forum ProPosts: 11,336
Like?
Re: Electronic shutters
In reply to DT200, 7 months ago

DT200 wrote:

Sadly you can't use and electronic shutter with and OVF.

Don't be sad, you absolutely can - there is nothing about an electronic shutter that prevents it from being used with a DSLR.  The Canon 1D and Nikon D70/50/60 are perfect examples because they do use electronic shutters for some speeds.  However, it will not be noiseless unless you also make the mirror mechanism noiseless.

-- hide signature --

Erik

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
MoreorLess
Senior MemberPosts: 2,206
Like?
Re: Mirrorless optical superiority is missing!
In reply to Photato, 7 months ago

Photato wrote:

He forgot the most important part.

Mirrorless optical superiority.

Especially so with wide angle lenses, due to the much shorter flange distance.

Did he mentioned cost and reliability, mirrorless being simpler, as having less moving parts?

We've heard this over and over but the reality seems to be that digital mirrorless is very different to film in that it can't function well with light coming in from too extreme an angle. You look at the length of a lot of mirrorless wide lenses(at least the ones that don't have non existant boarder performance like the Sony 16mm) and really they don't seem that different to me, I'm guessing more than a few maybe retrofocal.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
MoreorLess
Senior MemberPosts: 2,206
Like?
Re: Mirrorless optical superiority is missing!
In reply to MichaelKJ, 7 months ago

MichaelKJ wrote:

Donald Chin wrote:

Photato wrote:

He forgot the most important part.

Mirrorless optical superiority.

Especially so with wide angle lenses, due to the much shorter flange distance.

Did he mentioned cost and reliability, mirrorless being simpler, as having less moving parts?

Is such a lens available now for mirrorless?

One of his points was that he sees Nikon and Canon moving to FF mirrorless cameras that use their current lenses.

My guess is that we'll see some kind of hybrid viewfinder from Canon and/or Nikon in the next few years to get the advantages of both then maybe a switch to mirrorless in the more distant future when/if a mirror no longer offers an advantage.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
pavi1
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,571Gear list
Like?
Re: Thom Hogan: DSLR versus Mirrorless
In reply to nevada5, 7 months ago

nevada5 wrote:

A number of us here were shooting before autofocus was even dreamed of.

A breed that will soon be dead.

When all other things are equal, mirrorless will likely be the norm.

But all other things cannot be equal. An LCD display will never be as good as looking through the lens with your eye.

But how many people will refuse to give up the OVF and the sound of a mirror slapping?

The slapping mirror is not loved like the sound of a Mustang. It is tolerated in order to get the performance provided by the DSLR.

At least a few. DSLR's may still be made as a niche-type item.

Unlikely to ever see mirrorless dominate at the Olympics, football(both kinds), basketball, auto racing and the rest of the sports.

-- hide signature --

Everything happens for a reason. #1 reason: poor planning
WSSA #44

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Richard
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,358
Like?
Everyone NEEDS a mirrorless camera
In reply to MichaelKJ, 7 months ago

But not the way Thom states. There is no transitioning. Everyone needs a phone camera, perhaps a 41mp unit which is mirrorless, anything better than that would be a DSLR.

Unless manufacturers put a real effort into making mirrorless better for less, there is no reason to transition, only to add a cell phone camera when you need snapshots, everythings is on the decline until something superior to the DSLR comes out. That hasn't happened yet.

MichaelKJ wrote:

So where does all this put us? Tally it up. No advantage in sensor, image processing, shutter, frame rates, buffer, features, or potential advances to either DSLR or mirrorless. Clear disadvantage at the moment to mirrorless in power. Gap closing rapidly in viewing system and focus. And Size doesn't really have to be a relevant issue other than sensor size choice and all that implies.

Conclusion: we're actually very near the point where DSLRs will simply transition to mirrorless for most users. And not that far from the point where DSLRs will go mirrorless for all users.

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/dslr-versus-mirrorless.html

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
carlos roncatti
Senior MemberPosts: 2,536Gear list
Like?
Re: Thom Hogan: DSLR versus Mirrorless
In reply to MichaelKJ, 7 months ago

MichaelKJ wrote:

Gap closing rapidly in viewing system

Havent used a mirrorless on a long time now...is that true?

the delay between the shots used to make it impossible to shoot sports...are the later offerts better regarding this?

-- hide signature --

To understand photography, you must understand that the experience must be much more important than the result ....
Carlos Roncatti Bomfim
http://crbimage.com

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Donald Chin
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,061Gear list
Like?
Re: Electronic shutters
In reply to DT200, 7 months ago

DT200 wrote:

MichaelKJ wrote:

So where does all this put us? Tally it up. No advantage in sensor, image processing, shutter, frame rates, buffer, features, or potential advances to either DSLR or mirrorless. Clear disadvantage at the moment to mirrorless in power. Gap closing rapidly in viewing system and focus. And Size doesn't really have to be a relevant issue other than sensor size choice and all that implies.

Conclusion: we're actually very near the point where DSLRs will simply transition to mirrorless for most users. And not that far from the point where DSLRs will go mirrorless for all users.

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/dslr-versus-mirrorless.html

Sadly you can't use and electronic shutter with and OVF. There are already mirrorless cameras with electronic shutter options (no moving parts) that currently have some nice uses (wildlife, churches, etc).
Once that is improved and sensors can dump a whole image quickly to a buffer, it will be all over.

Did you ever use electronic shutter in real world? Certainly it brings new way of shooting however I can tell you it can't replace mechanical shutter and OVF base on current technology and it will create one major problem for average user...ten of thousand useless photos to sort out after they come back on a vacation.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Donald Chin
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,061Gear list
Like?
Re: Mirrorless optical superiority is missing!
In reply to MichaelKJ, 7 months ago

MichaelKJ wrote:

Donald Chin wrote:

Photato wrote:

He forgot the most important part.

Mirrorless optical superiority.

Especially so with wide angle lenses, due to the much shorter flange distance.

Did he mentioned cost and reliability, mirrorless being simpler, as having less moving parts?

Is such a lens available now for mirrorless?

One of his points was that he sees Nikon and Canon moving to FF mirrorless cameras that use their current lenses.

I'm talking about shorter flange distance, yes it helps if it's a fixed lens camera like RX1, however for interchangeable lenses camera it will be a difference story.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Donald Chin
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,061Gear list
Like?
Re: Thom Hogan: DSLR versus Mirrorless
In reply to carlos roncatti, 7 months ago

carlos roncatti wrote:

MichaelKJ wrote:

Gap closing rapidly in viewing system

Havent used a mirrorless on a long time now...is that true?

the delay between the shots used to make it impossible to shoot sports...are the later offerts better regarding this?

-- hide signature --

To understand photography, you must understand that the experience must be much more important than the result ....
Carlos Roncatti Bomfim
http://crbimage.com

Yes if you comparing a $450 optional EVF and a $450 DSLR kit, however my $450 Sony EVF is nothing close to my D4 OVF which in fact is not the best in it class! 1Dx OVF is even better. 

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
bosjohn
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,890
Like?
Re: Mirrorless optical superiority is missing!
In reply to MoreorLess, 7 months ago

MoreorLess wrote:

MichaelKJ wrote:

Donald Chin wrote:

Photato wrote:

He forgot the most important part.

Mirrorless optical superiority.

Especially so with wide angle lenses, due to the much shorter flange distance.

Did he mentioned cost and reliability, mirrorless being simpler, as having less moving parts?

Is such a lens available now for mirrorless?

One of his points was that he sees Nikon and Canon moving to FF mirrorless cameras that use their current lenses.

My guess is that we'll see some kind of hybrid viewfinder from Canon and/or Nikon in the next few years to get the advantages of both then maybe a switch to mirrorless in the more distant future when/if a mirror no longer offers an advantage.

if nikon and canon go mirror less there is no reason not to make a shorter lens flange to sensor distance as an easy adapter will accept all the existing lenses.

-- hide signature --

bosjohn aka John Shick bosjohn@yahoo.com

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
MoreorLess
Senior MemberPosts: 2,206
Like?
Re: Mirrorless optical superiority is missing!
In reply to bosjohn, 7 months ago

bosjohn wrote:

MoreorLess wrote:

MichaelKJ wrote:

Donald Chin wrote:

Photato wrote:

He forgot the most important part.

Mirrorless optical superiority.

Especially so with wide angle lenses, due to the much shorter flange distance.

Did he mentioned cost and reliability, mirrorless being simpler, as having less moving parts?

Is such a lens available now for mirrorless?

One of his points was that he sees Nikon and Canon moving to FF mirrorless cameras that use their current lenses.

My guess is that we'll see some kind of hybrid viewfinder from Canon and/or Nikon in the next few years to get the advantages of both then maybe a switch to mirrorless in the more distant future when/if a mirror no longer offers an advantage.

if nikon and canon go mirror less there is no reason not to make a shorter lens flange to sensor distance as an easy adapter will accept all the existing lenses.

-- hide signature --

bosjohn aka John Shick bosjohn@yahoo.com

It really depends on the form factor there after on the camera doesn't it, I think we can see from current sales that a lot of people want the larger form factor.

The EM-1 even if it did have decent AF performance with SLR lenses would still IMHO be too small to balance a lot of Oly's existing 43 lenses.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
micronean
Regular MemberPosts: 296Gear list
Like?
Re: Thom Hogan: DSLR versus Mirrorless
In reply to pavi1, 7 months ago

pavi1 wrote:

But all other things cannot be equal. An LCD display will never be as good as looking through the lens with your eye.

I'll rephrase this for you: "An LCD display will never be as satisfying as looking through the lens with your eye"

I say this because in many ways a digital display has the potential of detecting more than what the eye can do, and bringing in more useful data than just eyeballing for exposure. We may not perceive this potential right now, but when the technology matures we'll all be laughing at the old dinosaurs who used an optical viewfinder.

 micronean's gear list:micronean's gear list
Olympus OM-D E-M5 Olympus E-M1 Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH Panasonic Lumix G Vario 100-300mm F4-5.6 OIS Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 12-50mm 1:3.5-6.3 EZ +2 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads