Warning: A3000 emits a fake shutter sound that can't be disabled

Started 7 months ago | Discussions
captura
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Re: Warning: A3000 emits a fake shutter sound that can't be disabled
In reply to teseg, 7 months ago

teseg wrote:

For only $2K more you can get the Sony RX1 where the shutter sound can be disabled. Unfortunately this also disables the autofocus lock sound. With its leaf shutter this camera is essentially soundless.

My 5N with 50/1.8, on the other hand, can be heard snapping pictures at 100 yards... must be the 50 watt 'click' embedded speaker system.

Same with the NEX-3. On continuous or panoramic modes, a machine-gun like death rattle.

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wcdennis
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Re: Sony, idea for FW update!
In reply to DT200, 7 months ago

OK Let's clear up a few things: There is no fake shutter sound on any of the NEX cameras. The NEX3 sounds different that the 5N and the 7 because it does not have the electronic first curtain. Obviously, the low priced A300 has the same all mechanical shutter and has a similar sound. The reason it is so noisy is because when you press the release the shutter makes 4 operations: 1. to close (it is already open for live view) 2. it opens to make the exposure, 3.closes to finish the exposure and 4. opens again for live view. Cameras with electronic exposure the shutters only have to close and open, this explains the dramatic difference in sound. Digital cameras that have the shutter in the lens can be totally silent and often have the speaker sound to let you know you took a picture. You could have a silent mirrorless camera, but a shutter would have to be built into every single lens. This would mean even more expense and no option to use legacy glass.

Here is a good explnation of the electronic first curtain shutter:

http://www.mhohner.de/newsitem2/efcs

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Diopter
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Re: Sony, idea for FW update!
In reply to wcdennis, 7 months ago

wcdennis wrote:

OK Let's clear up a few things: There is no fake shutter sound on any of the NEX cameras.

Do you think this experiment is a confabulation? :

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52069994

(-)

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captura
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Re: Sony, idea for FW update!
In reply to Diopter, 7 months ago

Diopter wrote:

wcdennis wrote:

OK Let's clear up a few things: There is no fake shutter sound on any of the NEX cameras.

Do you think this experiment is a confabulation? :

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52069994

(-)

I've looked back on previous threads WRT fake-sounding first curtain shutter noise from the NEX-3N.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3401177#forum-post-51043730

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51041918

It is possible that the 3N (and presumably now the A3000, another cheap model) do not have a mechanical shutter at all.

Hence the false-sounding simulated shutter noise coming from the speaker.

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wcdennis
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Re: Sony, idea for FW update!
In reply to Diopter, 7 months ago

Diopter wrote:

wcdennis wrote:

OK Let's clear up a few things: There is no fake shutter sound on any of the NEX cameras.

Do you think this experiment is a confabulation? :

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52069994

(-)

If you read this, he never says if his camera was quieter after cutting the speaker wire. Why even go to the trouble, since the mechanical part of the shutter is still going to make plenty of noise?

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wcdennis
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Re: Sony, idea for FW update!
In reply to captura, 7 months ago

captura wrote:

Diopter wrote:

wcdennis wrote:

OK Let's clear up a few things: There is no fake shutter sound on any of the NEX cameras.

Do you think this experiment is a confabulation? :

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52069994

(-)

I've looked back on previous threads WRT fake-sounding first curtain shutter noise from the NEX-3N.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3401177#forum-post-51043730

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51041918

It is possible that the 3N (and presumably now the A3000, another cheap model) do not have a mechanical shutter at all.

Hence the false-sounding simulated shutter noise coming from the speaker.

No one has come up with a purely electronic still camera shutter, yet (it will be big news when they do). It has to be mechanical.

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Helen
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Re: Sony, idea for FW update!
In reply to wcdennis, 7 months ago

wcdennis wrote:

OK Let's clear up a few things: There is no fake shutter sound on any of the NEX cameras. The NEX3 sounds different that the 5N and the 7 because it does not have the electronic first curtain. Obviously, the low priced A300 has the same all mechanical shutter and has a similar sound. The reason it is so noisy is because when you press the release the shutter makes 4 operations: 1. to close (it is already open for live view) 2. it opens to make the exposure, 3.closes to finish the exposure and 4. opens again for live view. Cameras with electronic exposure the shutters only have to close and open, this explains the dramatic difference in sound. Digital cameras that have the shutter in the lens can be totally silent and often have the speaker sound to let you know you took a picture. You could have a silent mirrorless camera, but a shutter would have to be built into every single lens. This would mean even more expense and no option to use legacy glass.

Here is a good explnation of the electronic first curtain shutter:

http://www.mhohner.de/newsitem2/efcs

Actually, what you say is only half true.  The original NEX 3 and 5 had full mechanical shutters (first and second) only and were particularly noisy, with an obvious double "clunk".  The C3 was similar though its shutter had a slightly softer-sounding mechanism.  For all the ensuing models up to (but not including) the 3N and A3000, the option of using "electronic first curtain" operation was introduced, and when using this, the first curtain does not run, its function being replaced by scanning of the image sensor - so that part is silent and you only hear activity from the closing curtain. Consequently their sound is much briefer, as you know.

However, the 3N and A3000 ONLY operate in electronic first curtain mode (yes, really).  They don't possess a mechanical first curtain (and yes, I've done a visual check - there is never any physical first curtain activity, just a closing action).  Sony has given them a reasonably-realistic sound file to play to provide a simulation of the sound of a first curtain running - goodness knows why, probably something to do with assuming that their users will be new to interchangeable lens cameras and need to hear it.  Why on earth it isn't cancellable, I don't know.

Having said that, when I checked my A3000 on a very slow shutter speed, it did restrain itself to a brief click on the "opening" sound.  Some time, when I have a chance, I'll listen to the 3N at the same speed.  At more typical shutter speeds, the A3000 has a somewhat louder release sound than the 3N, perhaps due to the resonance of its larger body.

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Helen
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Re: Sony, idea for FW update!
In reply to wcdennis, 7 months ago

wcdennis wrote:

Diopter wrote:

wcdennis wrote:

OK Let's clear up a few things: There is no fake shutter sound on any of the NEX cameras.

Do you think this experiment is a confabulation? :

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52069994

(-)

If you read this, he never says if his camera was quieter after cutting the speaker wire. Why even go to the trouble, since the mechanical part of the shutter is still going to make plenty of noise?

I remember reading the results of the poster cutting the wire to the speaker in the 3N - and I could have sworn they then got just the closing curtain sound (genuine mechanical activity) as a result (as on the NEX 5N, 7, 6, F3, 5R, 5T) but of course lost all other audio output too, such as operational beeps and sound on video playback.  Agreed, though - it's hardly worth it when the closing shutter still emits mechanical noise anyway.

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Helen
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Re: Sony, idea for FW update!
In reply to wcdennis, 7 months ago

wcdennis wrote:

captura wrote:

Diopter wrote:

wcdennis wrote:

OK Let's clear up a few things: There is no fake shutter sound on any of the NEX cameras.

Do you think this experiment is a confabulation? :

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52069994

(-)

I've looked back on previous threads WRT fake-sounding first curtain shutter noise from the NEX-3N.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3401177#forum-post-51043730

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51041918

It is possible that the 3N (and presumably now the A3000, another cheap model) do not have a mechanical shutter at all.

Hence the false-sounding simulated shutter noise coming from the speaker.

No one has come up with a purely electronic still camera shutter, yet (it will be big news when they do). It has to be mechanical.

As another poster already pointed out, Nikon's 1 System has the option of completely silent operation on the V1 and V2 (which also have normal focal plane shutters which can be used as an option instead, with the usual - but actually rather subdued - sound).  The Nikon 1 J and S models actually do not have mechanical shutters at all (though as they come out of the box, they play a sound file).  Once that's disabled in the menu, they are silent.  These are not yet true "global" electronic shutters, as they scan, but they don't have a physical shutter at all.  That system's lenses have a rudimentary shutter mechanism but it is not used in exposure, just as a light-proofing measure when they are powered off.

Recent Panasonic models also have scanning electronic shutter options (silent) such as the GX7 - with limitations (no flash for example) but the limitations are getting less with each model release.

Oh, and the Pentax Q cameras use an in-lens leaf shutter which can be set to be disabled in "proper" lenses and a scanning electronic shutter used in its place (with a ridiculously slow flash sync speed as the main downside).  This operation has to be used with their Toy lens series as those have no in-lens shutter.

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Helen
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Re: Sony, idea for FW update!
In reply to Helen, 7 months ago

Helen wrote:

wcdennis wrote:

Diopter wrote:

wcdennis wrote:

OK Let's clear up a few things: There is no fake shutter sound on any of the NEX cameras.

Do you think this experiment is a confabulation? :

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52069994

(-)

If you read this, he never says if his camera was quieter after cutting the speaker wire. Why even go to the trouble, since the mechanical part of the shutter is still going to make plenty of noise?

I remember reading the results of the poster cutting the wire to the speaker in the 3N - and I could have sworn they then got just the closing curtain sound (genuine mechanical activity) as a result (as on the NEX 5N, 7, 6, F3, 5R, 5T) but of course lost all other audio output too, such as operational beeps and sound on video playback. Agreed, though - it's hardly worth it when the closing shutter still emits mechanical noise anyway.

Found it - the last two posts by toxicdog in the thread you quote above. Asked to elucidate about how mute the 3N is after the operation, toxicdog says:

It's not completely quiet, but there is no fake shutter sound, only the normal shutter. It's the same as on NEX-5N, with electronic first curtain shutter enabled on that. The fake shutter was annoying me a lot, felt like I was using a toy camera.

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captura
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Re: Sony, idea for FW update!
In reply to wcdennis, 7 months ago

wcdennis wrote:

captura wrote:

Diopter wrote:

wcdennis wrote:

OK Let's clear up a few things: There is no fake shutter sound on any of the NEX cameras.

Do you think this experiment is a confabulation? :

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52069994

(-)

I've looked back on previous threads WRT fake-sounding first curtain shutter noise from the NEX-3N.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3401177#forum-post-51043730

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51041918

It is possible that the 3N (and presumably now the A3000, another cheap model) do not have a mechanical shutter at all.

Hence the false-sounding simulated shutter noise coming from the speaker.

No one has come up with a purely electronic still camera shutter, yet (it will be big news when they do). It has to be mechanical.

The Nikon 1 J1 can operates with just an electronic shutter.

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Sonyshine
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Re: Sony, idea for FW update!
In reply to captura, 7 months ago

Correct. My Nikon V1 has a totally silent electronic shutter option that can operate at up to 30fps. It also has a mechanical shutter which is optional.

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semifast
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Re: Warning: A3000 emits a fake shutter sound that can't be disabled
In reply to Lmendy, 7 months ago

Lmendy wrote:

more importantly, how do you like the a3000 and it's image quality?

If you follow this forum you would know this "fake" shutter sound issue is THE most important issue concerning the 3N, and now will be concerning the A3000.

Of course the reality is it doesn't make any difference at all because all Nex camera have quite loud real shutter noise so it isn't going to make any difference whether this other "fake" sound is there or not.

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Sonyshine
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Re: Warning: I can do pretty good fake shutter sounds.....
In reply to semifast, 7 months ago

semifast wrote:

Lmendy wrote:

more importantly, how do you like the a3000 and it's image quality?

If you follow this forum you would know this "fake" shutter sound issue is THE most important issue concerning the 3N, and now will be concerning the A3000.

Of course the reality is it doesn't make any difference at all because all Nex camera have quite loud real shutter noise so it isn't going to make any difference whether this other "fake" sound is there or not.

Yeah....when I shoot my Nikon V1 in totally silent full electronic shutter mode at 30fps I have to make a buzzing noise so that people know my shutter is working!

Life's too short to worry about shutter noises!

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DT200
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Here he says it was fake....
In reply to Helen, 7 months ago

Helen wrote:

Helen wrote:

wcdennis wrote:

Diopter wrote:

wcdennis wrote:

OK Let's clear up a few things: There is no fake shutter sound on any of the NEX cameras.

Do you think this experiment is a confabulation? :

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52069994

(-)

If you read this, he never says if his camera was quieter after cutting the speaker wire. Why even go to the trouble, since the mechanical part of the shutter is still going to make plenty of noise?

I remember reading the results of the poster cutting the wire to the speaker in the 3N - and I could have sworn they then got just the closing curtain sound (genuine mechanical activity) as a result (as on the NEX 5N, 7, 6, F3, 5R, 5T) but of course lost all other audio output too, such as operational beeps and sound on video playback. Agreed, though - it's hardly worth it when the closing shutter still emits mechanical noise anyway.

Found it - the last two posts by toxicdog in the thread you quote above. Asked to elucidate about how mute the 3N is after the operation, toxicdog says:

It's not completely quiet, but there is no fake shutter sound, only the normal shutter. It's the same as on NEX-5N, with electronic first curtain shutter enabled on that. The fake shutter was annoying me a lot, felt like I was using a toy camera.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52067608

In the same thread, he says,

I've successfully took apart the back plate of my NEX-3N after removing about 10-12 screws. I've cut one of the two wires connecting the pcb with the speaker.

My device is fully functional now, except it is mute.

It's a huge relief after using it with the annoying fake shutter for months.

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Leandros S
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Silence is a non-negotiable requirement in wildlife photography
In reply to straylightrun, 7 months ago

Stating merely what should be obvious to everybody, which makes me wonder all the more why Sony would choose to exclude wildlife photography from the A3000's portfolio.

And in response to what others have said re: "anti-predatory" legislation - I don't think an SLR-style camera is particularly ideal for inconspicuously "looking" up girls' skirts. Again, just stating the obvious. I want to groan, but that might be taken the wrong way. Sad world.

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wcdennis
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Re: Sony, idea for FW update!
In reply to Helen, 7 months ago

Helen wrote:

wcdennis wrote:

captura wrote:

Diopter wrote:

wcdennis wrote:

OK Let's clear up a few things: There is no fake shutter sound on any of the NEX cameras.

Do you think this experiment is a confabulation? :

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52069994

(-)

I've looked back on previous threads WRT fake-sounding first curtain shutter noise from the NEX-3N.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3401177#forum-post-51043730

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51041918

It is possible that the 3N (and presumably now the A3000, another cheap model) do not have a mechanical shutter at all.

Hence the false-sounding simulated shutter noise coming from the speaker.

No one has come up with a purely electronic still camera shutter, yet (it will be big news when they do). It has to be mechanical.

As another poster already pointed out, Nikon's 1 System has the option of completely silent operation on the V1 and V2 (which also have normal focal plane shutters which can be used as an option instead, with the usual - but actually rather subdued - sound). The Nikon 1 J and S models actually do not have mechanical shutters at all (though as they come out of the box, they play a sound file). Once that's disabled in the menu, they are silent. These are not yet true "global" electronic shutters, as they scan, but they don't have a physical shutter at all. That system's lenses have a rudimentary shutter mechanism but it is not used in exposure, just as a light-proofing measure when they are powered off.

Recent Panasonic models also have scanning electronic shutter options (silent) such as the GX7 - with limitations (no flash for example) but the limitations are getting less with each model release.

Oh, and the Pentax Q cameras use an in-lens leaf shutter which can be set to be disabled in "proper" lenses and a scanning electronic shutter used in its place (with a ridiculously slow flash sync speed as the main downside). This operation has to be used with their Toy lens series as those have no in-lens shutter.

OK, I stand corrected. But I do think that if the new Sony A3000 had an all electronic shutter, there would have been some bragging from Sony.

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OpticsEngineer
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The reason why I find the fake shutter sound useful (and other comments)
In reply to Leandros S, 7 months ago

"Stating merely what should be obvious to everybody, which makes me wonder all the more why Sony would choose to exclude wildlife photography"

I guess speculations like this will fade away as more people actually get their hands on the A3000 and learn first hand where the strengths and weaknesses are.

The A3000 is excluded from any serious wildlife photography by a relatively long time between pressing the shutter button and the picture actually starting.  (My NEX7 is much faster for that.  My A65 too)   I find the A3000 less than satisfying for taking pictures of my kids playing because of the shutter lag.  (My NEX7 is okay.  My A65 is great)

(I am being careful to differentiate between AF time and shutter lag by the way.  The A3000 AF time is pretty quick)

The mechanical shutter in my A3000 makes about one-third of the noise as the simulated shutter.  I appreciate having it so I know when the exposure begins.

The fake shutter sound saves me from making some bad shots.   Like when I come indoors, take a shot, and notice a long time between start and end of exposure.  I know right away I left the camera on ISO 100 and I fix it and get back to shooting.

Seeing as how the fake shutter is useful, and it is quieter than the mechanical one, a reasonable question is why can't it be disabled?

It is a generally accepted principal of user interface design that any feature or option that does not truly serve a purpose should be eliminated.  Its presence adds clutter.  Clutter leads to confusion and complaints.  Not so much one item by itself, but when you clutter up a user interface with a dozen or so features that only 0.1% of people would apprecate, now you have created a situation where 100% of people are being annoyed by things that don't matter (complaints about long lists of options you have to scroll through to find the thing you want, or people not able to find features they do want (sound familar NEX7 users?)   So everytime a feature is evaluated, it is asked, does it really add benefit?  If not, throw it out.

I suspect the option to disable the fake shutter noise simply did not withstand a design review where it was asked what is the benefit of such an option, what does the user suffer if they accidentally turn it off,  versus what clutter does it add.

Now if the mechanical shutter were not three times louder, the option to disable fake shutter sound,  I suspect would have been seen as valuable.

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wcdennis
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Re: Sony, idea for FW update!
In reply to wcdennis, 7 months ago

wcdennis wrote:

OK Let's clear up a few things: There is no fake shutter sound on any of the NEX cameras. The NEX3 sounds different that the 5N and the 7 because it does not have the electronic first curtain. Obviously, the low priced A300 has the same all mechanical shutter and has a similar sound. The reason it is so noisy is because when you press the release the shutter makes 4 operations: 1. to close (it is already open for live view) 2. it opens to make the exposure, 3.closes to finish the exposure and 4. opens again for live view. Cameras with electronic exposure the shutters only have to close and open, this explains the dramatic difference in sound. Digital cameras that have the shutter in the lens can be totally silent and often have the speaker sound to let you know you took a picture. You could have a silent mirrorless camera, but a shutter would have to be built into every single lens. This would mean even more expense and no option to use legacy glass.

Here is a good explnation of the electronic first curtain shutter:

http://www.mhohner.de/newsitem2/efcs

I want to apologize for my ignorance about the newer low-end NEX models. My experience is with the 7 the 6 and the C3--none of which have the simulated shutter sound. I agree that it seems silly to add sound to a camera that already make its own noise and also annoying that it can't be turned off.

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DT200
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Do you really believe that???
In reply to OpticsEngineer, 7 months ago

OpticsEngineer wrote:

"The fake shutter sound saves me from making some bad shots.   Like when I come indoors, take a shot, and notice a long time between start and end of exposure.  I know right away I left the camera on ISO 100 and I fix it and get back to shooting.

Huh.  I would think seeing "ISO100" in the LCD and EVF would be more important. 

Seeing as how the fake shutter is useful, and it is quieter than the mechanical one, a reasonable question is why can't it be disabled?

It is a generally accepted principal of user interface design that any feature or option that does not truly serve a purpose should be eliminated.  Its presence adds clutter.

OMG that is is stretch.   One line that says, "Silent Shutter" in the UI is not adding clutter, and is an option that so many here would find valuable.   Your argument that the loud fake shutter sound is a "benefit" is summed up on a tee-shirt...

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