In Defense of the DSLR

Started 11 months ago | Discussions
paulkienitz
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Re: Agree
In reply to D Cox, 11 months ago

D Cox wrote:

PerL wrote:

Yes, some think they know better what professionals should use than the pros themselves. The thing is that those professional DSLRs with fast, heavy, big lenses are tools that produces fantastic results. You will be judged by your photos, no customer wants to hear that the photos are of a little less quality, but hey - my camera is very small and comfortable to carry.

I'm not clear why photos from a Leica M240 should be of lower quality simply because it doesn't have a mirror.

The advantage of C and N is not the mirror, it's that they can sell you a 600mm f4 and Leica cannot.

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paulkienitz
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Re: In Defense of the DSLR
In reply to brianric, 11 months ago

brianric wrote:

Midwest wrote:

Ever notice it's always that other crowd trying to tear down the DSLR, while most DSLR users don't bother about that little puppy nipping at our heels. Shoo, little puppies!

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It's nice to say that nice pictures are nice. (sarcasm)

MF film said that of 35 mm film. Today, MF digital about to go way of the do do bird.

Don't count on it.  The costs of large sensors have been prohibitive, but that's changing, and the MF companies seem to be surviving the interregnum just fine.

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kkardster
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Re: In Defense of the DSLR
In reply to Kodachrome200, 11 months ago

I recently returned from a 12-day holiday in Greece.  During that time, I visited many popular tourist sites and saw a lot of cameras.  As such, my unscientific survey found that the vast majority of traveler's cameras were Canon DSLRs.  I saw very few Nikon DSLRs but many Sony, Panasonic, and Canon P&S models.  I'd bet I saw more Nikon 1 cameras than all other mirrorless interchangable lens cameras combined.

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walkaround
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worst cliche on dpreview: "Mirrorless is dead"
In reply to Richard, 11 months ago

Richard wrote:

Phones have cut into the ENTIRE camera business.

This is simply not true. Smartphones have cut into the cheapo point and shoot market only. Tourists all have a DSLR around their necks. Go out and look some time.

Nobody is saying, "Gee I am really torn between a NEX and an iPhone for my photography."

And mirrorless is not in decline, the sales numbers can be fudged any way you like it - but in Asia they are beating DSLRs now. The rest of the world will follow when the technology, price and selection has matured.

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Nexu1
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Re: In Defense of the DSLR
In reply to Cailean Gallimore, 11 months ago

Cailean Gallimore wrote:

Some people have invested so much ego into the idea that a DSLR makes them a 'serious' photographer, that they feel the need to defend them.

How odd.

And some MFT shooters have such an inferiority complex that they constantly feel the need to create new threads to make endless silly comparisons to DSLR's.

It is odd.

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Nexu1
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Re: Just die already DSLRs
In reply to Beach Bum, 11 months ago

Beach Bum wrote:

I think you're being short-sighted. How long do you think DSLRs will maintain the advantage for stills? On sensor PDAF will eventually take off and squeeze out the mirror box entirely. That's the way innovation works.

My point is that the mirror box will eventually be a thing of the past. It may not seem like that now, but you can't stop progress. Some people just look at today's sales figures and feel it will always be this way.

And DSLRs don't do everything better. I have yet to find a DSLR I'd prefer to use for video than an mFT, the Canon 70D excepted. Frankly, Panasonic mFTs work as well as dedicated camcorders, with better video quality.

People don't buy things based on what's better. That's been conclusively shown time and time again. The average consumer is, for lack of a better word, immensely stupid. They follow trends that don't necessarily have anything to do with quality or lack thereof. That's why it's so difficult to predict. If I were to just invest in the company that made the best products, I'd go broke, because that has nothing to do with what sells.

But, for my money, I'd predict something smaller and trendier being the big seller over yesterday's behemoths. Eventually word of mouth will favor the mirrorless camera. You'll get the right articles endorsing them, the right people endorsing them, and eventually you'll begin to see a shift. That's just my prediction.

And, IMO, I don't believe that the so-called pros are going to have much of a say either way.

I don't doubt that someday the mirror box will be gone.  What I find more relevant is how the different sensor size formats will survive or thrive.  IMO even if the mirror box goes bye-bye there will likely remain a market for APS-C and FF sensors.  It wouldn't be all that difficult for Canon or Nikon to make mirrorless APS-C cameras similar to, say, a Panasonic G6.

The larger sensor will always yield IQ improvements and depth of field advantages over smaller sensors.  The same way a MFT camera beats something like a Sony RX100.

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Rmark
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Re: In Defense of the DSLR
In reply to Kodachrome200, 11 months ago

The DSLR really does not need to be defended. It is a mature,  effective camera design. It is the new technology i.e. mirrorless that needs to establish it can meet the same standards in terms of focus speed and accuracy, lens selection and quality

Nikon and Canon do dominate the market, possibly because they make quality cameras, with great specifications, with an extensive line of lenses and accessories.

My main point is about lenses. Assuming if one buys an interchangeable lens camera, one will invest in lenses. The cost of good lenses will far exceed the cost of camera bodies. If you have a collection of lenses that meet your needs it and fits your Nikon or Canon DSLR, are you going to start over with an mFT or other system? Why?

If, like many first  time DSLR buyers, you are just going to leave the 18-55 kit lens on the camera, you might as well buy a panasonic LX7 or Canon G15 and really save some weight.

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ApertureAcolyte
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Re: In Defense of the DSLR
In reply to Kodachrome200, 11 months ago

Kodachrome200 wrote:

As I joined this forum I started to notice a lot of people talking about how dslrs were obsolete dinosaurs. This was news to me. I knew about mirrorless cameras but i never realized anyone was predicting that they would mean the complete end of the Dslr

People predicted that film would die, and it did.

But lets get real, the SLR won't die altogether, just as Film isn't dead. But these things will eventually go on life support. Just like how they still make even in this day, bellows and TLR cameras.

Now I think the predicted death of the DSLR has been greatly exaggerated. I work as a professional photographer and I of course get to meet other people in my field all the time and they are still pretty happy with their Canon and Nikons.

Your point? You can still be pretty happy with FILM, it has no meaning to the progression of technology.

Now i have heard people in this forum say the pros use Canon and Nikon gear because they dont know any better.

They might just want to say that Canon and Nikon are highly overrated.

The fact is the current state of technology EVFs are sad little things that arent nearly up to alot of peoples standards.

This is a pretty silly thing to claim. My EVF's are hardly sad. Considering it can do things your OVF can't do .... at alll. Apples vs Oranges here.

Can you preview live bulb through your optical viewfinder?

Can you look into the sun through your optical viewfinder without eye damage?

Can you get an accurate exposure preview through your optical viewfinder?

Can you review your images through your optical viewfinder and avoid chimping?

Can you magnify x14 in your optical viewfinder?

Can you have focus peaking in your optical viewfinder?

"Sad things"....? Hardly. Only thing is sad is that you are too blind to understand the benefits they provide.

There plenty of valid reasons to want a full frame sensor.

Which you can get on mirrorless...

You do realize even if evfs become so good you cant tell the difference between them and reality they actually still may not be preferable to alot of people.

An OVF is just a tool for framing. An EVF is much more than that which makes a lot of sense to DIGITAL.

I personally would rather not see exposure or white balance previewed in camera.

So... why even have digital then? You should like you should go back to film... and scan.

Besides, you can turn those features off.

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GossCTP
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Re: In Defense of the DSLR
In reply to Kodachrome200, 11 months ago

Ultimately, I think the DSLR will be relegated to a niche product, along the lines of rangefinders. Many photographers are nostalgic, and that alone may be enough to keep a limited number of SLRs on the market. In the long run, I think advances in electronics will not only put mirrorless cams on par with DSLRs, but will surpass them across the board for performance. The pros will switch to mirrorless when they feel that point has occurred for them personally.

Of course, in the present day, predictions of the demise of the DSLR are premature. Just like predictions of the demise of 35mm film were premature in 2000.

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pjman792
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Re: Nikon & Canon
In reply to Beach Bum, 11 months ago

The fact of the matter is, it's not like Canon or Nikon have any special sauce or special know-how of how to make DSLRs. The reason they're market leaders is because they cornered the market long ago, and now it's prohibitively expensive for any other manufacturer to compete. The only way for another manufacturer to compete in the camera business is to do something else. There's absolutely zero evidence that these two are innovators in any way, and I believe they're pretty much stifling the camera industry as a whole.

An inconvenient truth is that Canon and Nikon actually do produce outstanding equipment - this has more to do with their ability to gain and retain market share than anything else. In addition, to say that Canon and Nikon are not in any way innovators also overlooks the facts. Nikon, for instance, has produced the groundbreaking D3s (astounding low-light capability) , D800 (resolution never before achieved in a DSLR) and the D600 (outstanding resolution and full-frame sensor with pro-sumer body and price). That sounds pretty innovative to me - and apparently to millions of others.

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RedFox88
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Re: The film SLR was great, too
In reply to TrapperJohn, 11 months ago

TrapperJohn wrote:

It really is nice to have a slender little EM5, and a couple of fast primes in a fanny pack, as opposed to a full size DSLR and a bag full of lenses. Definitely more convenient, for me and for the people around me.

Sure... who cares about fast, accurate autofocus right?  It's all about convenience and not performance, right?

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Dennis
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Re: Just die already DSLRs
In reply to walkaround, 11 months ago

walkaround wrote:

Dennis wrote:

  • Those companies will eventually introduce mirrorless cameras for their SLR lens mounts, providing the technical benefits of mirrorless (minus the size benefits of the reduced registration distance lens mount)

Canon already tried this with an EF adapter for the EOS-M. Nobody other than forum basement trolls are using EF glass on the M.

NEX and m43 both offer it, too, along with Nikon 1, with varying degrees of success.  I'm thinking more along the lines of a mirrorless F-mount, for instance ... sort of like Sony's SLTs minus the mirror (PDAF-on-sensor).  Whether they'll replace the DSLR throughout the line is anyone's guess, but they'll come.  (Pentax K-01 is another example, but a total kludge with CDAF and no VF, not to mention butt-ugly design).

  • The size benefits of the reduced registration distance lens mount aren't all that significant unless you step down in sensor size and accept the compromises of doing that

You might not be aware, but Leica and other companies have been making small full frame lenses for 80 years or so. The size savings is "significant" when you don't have to worry about a flipping mirror.

Or autofocus or image stabilization or telephotos.

- Dennis

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pjman792
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Re: Agree
In reply to Beach Bum, 11 months ago

Beach Bum wrote:

D Cox wrote:

PerL wrote:

Yes, some think they know better what professionals should use than the pros themselves. The thing is that those professional DSLRs with fast, heavy, big lenses are tools that produces fantastic results. You will be judged by your photos, no customer wants to hear that the photos are of a little less quality, but hey - my camera is very small and comfortable to carry.

I'm not clear why photos from a Leica M240 should be of lower quality simply because it doesn't have a mirror.

And I expect the same to be true of other full-frame mirrorless cameras when they are released.

Because it's propaganda, the same as everything else in this thread. People bought into a system, they feel good about it, and they're going to beat you over the head with it until you feel like nothing else can compete.

The truth is the mirror has nothing to do with the quality of the photo.

The truth is - right now - mirrorless systems just cannot do everything a pro DSLR can do. Period. It  has nothing to do with brand loyalty, or propaganda. Pros use the gear they use primarily for one reason: it does the job at hand better than anything else. Period. You, sir, seem to be the one intent on beating everyone over the head with your 'mirrorless crusade'.

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What do results say?
In reply to Kodachrome200, 11 months ago

Kodachrome200 wrote:

As I joined this forum I started to notice a lot of people talking about how dslrs were obsolete dinosaurs. This was news to me. I knew about mirrorless cameras but i never realized anyone was predicting that they would mean the complete end of the Dslr

Now I think the predicted death of the DSLR has been greatly exaggerated. I work as a professional photographer and I of course get to meet other people in my field all the time and they are still pretty happy with their Canon and Nikons. Now i have heard people in this forum say the pros use Canon and Nikon gear because they dont know any better. Now A. i think it is pretty presumptuous for folks pounding away on a camera forum to to tell the world that they know better than pro photographers and B. this is just not true. DSLRS have there own unique virtues. Just because it isnt the perfect camera for you does not mean it is right for a lot of people.

The fact is the current state of technology EVFs are sad little things that arent nearly up to alot of peoples standards. There plenty of valid reasons to want a full frame sensor. The almost complete lack of professional zoom lenses in the mirrorless segment and other issues with lens choices are real problem for a lot of people. and you have to realize that alot people don't want small light cameras. Not everyone but a high end camera for traveling or for hiking. Sometimes ergonomics are more important than size.

You do realize even if evfs become so good you cant tell the difference between them and reality they actually still may not be preferable to alot of people. I personally would rather not see exposure or white balance previewed in camera. and even if everyone decided to get cameras with evfs most pro's and a lot of other people would choose ones that were no smaller than current full frame cameras and they would have full frame sensors. I suspect they will be made my canon and nikon and use the same lens mount we are currently using.

Clearly Mirrorless cameras are going to have there share of the market dslrs used to dominate. but just like i really doubt cell phones are going to kill compact cameras, i think Dslrs are going to be around a long time

Wouldn't it be wonderful if greatness had a recipe?

I'm not saying you shouldn't have to work hard or try.  But man, if it were true that there were a few constants in this world that if you just studied the he// out of them and worked hard, then bam: success, greatness, glory would be yours.

Whenever I read missives like yours, Kodachrome200, I feel for you--I really do.  There you are, following the "rules" that were given to you, working hard to perfect a craft you were confident about when . . . whoops!  Some jerk comes along and completely redefines the game.  Sweeps the rug right out from under you.  Breaks the "rule" that says a compelling "professional" photography should come from a DSLR!  (Not unlike when some a$$hole back in 2001 or so broke the "rule" that said "professional" photography could only happen with film.  And then when another a$$hole in 2010 or so proved it still could.)  And suddenly (predictably), no client in the world gives a crap about everything that goes into making a gorgeous, meaningful photograph with a DSLR because some visionary kid with an OM-D can produce a result even more interesting, even more useful, even more desirable in less time, in greater quantity, for less money.

Yeah, it seems unfair.

Or, maybe it's just the way of the world.  And rather than wasting your time "defending" one technological notch over another (in a long string of advances yet to come), maybe it's worth stepping back and looking at the bigger picture--by which I mean to say, the result.

Technology drives photography only in terms of how people use it, and every photographer is free to use technology however he or she wants.  There is no "recipe."  You can cry about how great DSLRs are until you're hoarse, but if photographers using mirrorless gear are redefining the art--with their results--in ways that clients find more compelling, then no one will (or should) really care what you have to say.

You didn't ask for advice, but you need some.  So here it is: don't defend technology, defend results.   No client cares how you're producing your photographs; they care only whether the result meets their desires and whether you can produce it for what they're willing to pay.  So care about that.  Find and favor technology that enables that.

The world shifts and changes and moves, and if you're unwilling to shift, change, and move with it in developing an innovative, compelling, relevant artistic product, you're screwed.  There are no "rules," there are just results.

M.

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Kodachrome200
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Re: What do results say?
In reply to MarkJH, 11 months ago

MarkJH wrote:

Kodachrome200 wrote:

As I joined this forum I started to notice a lot of people talking about how dslrs were obsolete dinosaurs. This was news to me. I knew about mirrorless cameras but i never realized anyone was predicting that they would mean the complete end of the Dslr

Now I think the predicted death of the DSLR has been greatly exaggerated. I work as a professional photographer and I of course get to meet other people in my field all the time and they are still pretty happy with their Canon and Nikons. Now i have heard people in this forum say the pros use Canon and Nikon gear because they dont know any better. Now A. i think it is pretty presumptuous for folks pounding away on a camera forum to to tell the world that they know better than pro photographers and B. this is just not true. DSLRS have there own unique virtues. Just because it isnt the perfect camera for you does not mean it is right for a lot of people.

The fact is the current state of technology EVFs are sad little things that arent nearly up to alot of peoples standards. There plenty of valid reasons to want a full frame sensor. The almost complete lack of professional zoom lenses in the mirrorless segment and other issues with lens choices are real problem for a lot of people. and you have to realize that alot people don't want small light cameras. Not everyone but a high end camera for traveling or for hiking. Sometimes ergonomics are more important than size.

You do realize even if evfs become so good you cant tell the difference between them and reality they actually still may not be preferable to alot of people. I personally would rather not see exposure or white balance previewed in camera. and even if everyone decided to get cameras with evfs most pro's and a lot of other people would choose ones that were no smaller than current full frame cameras and they would have full frame sensors. I suspect they will be made my canon and nikon and use the same lens mount we are currently using.

Clearly Mirrorless cameras are going to have there share of the market dslrs used to dominate. but just like i really doubt cell phones are going to kill compact cameras, i think Dslrs are going to be around a long time

Wouldn't it be wonderful if greatness had a recipe?

I'm not saying you shouldn't have to work hard or try. But man, if it were true that there were a few constants in this world that if you just studied the he// out of them and worked hard, then bam: success, greatness, glory would be yours.

wtf are you talking about.

Whenever I read missives like yours, Kodachrome200, I feel for you--I really do. There you are, following the "rules" that were given to you, working hard to perfect a craft you were confident about when . . . whoops! Some jerk comes along and completely redefines the game. Sweeps the rug right out from under you. Breaks the "rule" that says a compelling "professional" photography should come from a DSLR! (Not unlike when some a$$hole back in 2001 or so broke the "rule" that said "professional" photography could only happen with film. And then when another a$$hole in 2010 or so proved it still could.) And suddenly (predictably), no client in the world gives a crap about everything that goes into making a gorgeous, meaningful photograph with a DSLR because some visionary kid with an OM-D can produce a result even more interesting, even more useful, even more desirable in less time, in greater quantity, for less money.

Yeah, it seems unfair.

Or, maybe it's just the way of the world. And rather than wasting your time "defending" one technological notch over another (in a long string of advances yet to come), maybe it's worth stepping back and looking at the bigger picture--by which I mean to say, the result.

Technology drives photography only in terms of how people use it, and every photographer is free to use technology however he or she wants. There is no "recipe." You can cry about how great DSLRs are until you're hoarse, but if photographers using mirrorless gear are redefining the art--with their results--in ways that clients find more compelling, then no one will (or should) really care what you have to say.

You didn't ask for advice, but you need some. So here it is: don't defend technology, defend results. No client cares how you're producing your photographs; they care only whether the result meets their desires and whether you can produce it for what they're willing to pay. So care about that. Find and favor technology that enables that.

The world shifts and changes and moves, and if you're unwilling to shift, change, and move with it in developing an innovative, compelling, relevant artistic product, you're screwed. There are no "rules," there are just results.

M.

This is easily the most pompous thing i have ever read in my life. Firstly i get the impression you didnt even read what you are responding to. I wrote about how bizarre it seemed to me that people are predicting the end of the DSLR when it seemed to me that they are still a very useful tool. And you responded with, well actually cant easily summarize your response except that it seems to be various ways of talking down to me that have nothing to do with what i wrote.

All i can tell you is I have been doing this professionally since the film days. I have made many technological and none of them were too difficult. I traded my Hasselblad and my 4x5 camera in for Dslr many years ago and never looked back.

And where you get this idea that i am rigid religious dslr zealot from what i wrote i have no idea. I absolutely love my Ricoh GR and my iphone is great little camera to have around. And i actually think the fuji mirrorless gear is on its way to looking pretty cool but i dont think i want to be an early adopter. I still love 4x5 camera too. it has no use for me for client work but its great fun for personal projects.

I have honestly nothing against mirrorless cameras. I just think that dslrs are still very useful tools. And when i read fanboys on this forum say dslrs are dinosaurs and pros are just sheep that buy whatever canon and nikon put out i am just flabbergasted. its really strange.

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Kodachrome200
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Re: In Defense of the DSLR
In reply to ApertureAcolyte, 11 months ago

ApertureAcolyte wrote:

Kodachrome200 wrote:

As I joined this forum I started to notice a lot of people talking about how dslrs were obsolete dinosaurs. This was news to me. I knew about mirrorless cameras but i never realized anyone was predicting that they would mean the complete end of the Dslr

People predicted that film would die, and it did.

But lets get real, the SLR won't die altogether, just as Film isn't dead. But these things will eventually go on life support. Just like how they still make even in this day, bellows and TLR cameras.

Now I think the predicted death of the DSLR has been greatly exaggerated. I work as a professional photographer and I of course get to meet other people in my field all the time and they are still pretty happy with their Canon and Nikons.

Your point? You can still be pretty happy with FILM, it has no meaning to the progression of technology.

Now i have heard people in this forum say the pros use Canon and Nikon gear because they dont know any better.

They might just want to say that Canon and Nikon are highly overrated.

The fact is the current state of technology EVFs are sad little things that arent nearly up to alot of peoples standards.

This is a pretty silly thing to claim. My EVF's are hardly sad. Considering it can do things your OVF can't do .... at alll. Apples vs Oranges here.

Can you preview live bulb through your optical viewfinder?

Can you look into the sun through your optical viewfinder without eye damage?

Can you get an accurate exposure preview through your optical viewfinder?

Can you review your images through your optical viewfinder and avoid chimping?

Can you magnify x14 in your optical viewfinder?

Can you have focus peaking in your optical viewfinder?

"Sad things"....? Hardly. Only thing is sad is that you are too blind to understand the benefits they provide.

There plenty of valid reasons to want a full frame sensor.

Which you can get on mirrorless...

You do realize even if evfs become so good you cant tell the difference between them and reality they actually still may not be preferable to alot of people.

An OVF is just a tool for framing. An EVF is much more than that which makes a lot of sense to DIGITAL.

I personally would rather not see exposure or white balance previewed in camera.

So... why even have digital then? You should like you should go back to film... and scan.

Besides, you can turn those features off.

just going to respond to the end. no you cannot turn previewing of in an evf. an evf is showing you an image as interpreted by a dgitial sensor. you can never have it so you are seeing the world as it is. it has to try to decide how to white balance the image and what exposure is. this is devastating when you just want to see your scene

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MichaelKJ
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The iPhone is dead.
In reply to Richard, 11 months ago

Richard wrote:

If DSLRs die.

If BlackBerry smartphones die.

So we see pros get pro camera to differentiate them from a phone photographer. Pros are not going to be seen with a Oly Panny, or even Sony mirrorless which is consumer grade. That is why the DSLR has stayed the same.

Business people get BlackBerry smartphones to differentiate themselves from an iPhone or Androids. Business people are not going to be seen with an iPhone, Samsung or even HTC which is consumer grade. That is why the BlackBerry has stayed the same.

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Draek
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Re: The film SLR was great, too
In reply to RedFox88, 11 months ago

RedFox88 wrote:

Sure... who cares about fast, accurate autofocus right? It's all about convenience and not performance, right?

PDAF is fast, CDAF is accurate. And yes, for most people the speed of modern cameras' CDAF implementation is more than good enough -- and mixed-focusing cameras like the E-M1 are bridging the small gap that remains with surprising celerity.

So no, not an important concern.

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ApertureAcolyte
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Re: In Defense of the DSLR
In reply to Kodachrome200, 11 months ago

Kodachrome200 wrote:

just going to respond to the end. no you cannot turn previewing of in an evf. an evf is showing you an image as interpreted by a dgitial sensor. you can never have it so you are seeing the world as it is. it has to try to decide how to white balance the image and what exposure is. this is devastating when you just want to see your scene

This is about the most moronic argument I've heard regarding EVF's.

How about seeing the image you are trying to create?

You can adjust the mentioned parameters to give you an advantage to actually see how the picture will come out before you shoot.

You want to know what is devastating? It's not seeing anything at all through an OVF at night. Good luck actually framing long night exposures through an OVF...(impossible)

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Promit
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Re: In Defense of the DSLR
In reply to Kodachrome200, 11 months ago

Kodachrome200 wrote:

The fact is the current state of technology EVFs are sad little things that arent nearly up to alot of peoples standards. There plenty of valid reasons to want a full frame sensor. The almost complete lack of professional zoom lenses in the mirrorless segment and other issues with lens choices are real problem for a lot of people. and you have to realize that alot people don't want small light cameras. Not everyone but a high end camera for traveling or for hiking. Sometimes ergonomics are more important than size.

Allow me to ask something of you, please just indulge me. Which mirrorless or EVF based cameras have you used? What lenses have you used? IE what is your actual personal experience with mirrorless equipment?

On a sidenote, last I checked the 7D was considered a credible pro camera, so full frame isn't the end-all. And we're on the eve of full frame NEX so it should be interesting to see where that goes. I also think the "size" and "ergonomics" argument of mirrorless is neither here nor there. A GH3 is a pretty substantial camera, and one can make an argument that the SLT line also counts.

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