In Defense of the DSLR

Started 10 months ago | Discussions
Cailean Gallimore
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Re: In Defense of the DSLR
In reply to paulkienitz, 10 months ago

paulkienitz wrote:

The thing is, there's nothing stopping any mirrorless or any DSLR from adding as much connectivity as a phone. They're moving slowly on that, but they're definitely moving.

I think what's keeping mirrorless sales flat was that an EVF was supposed to be smaller and cheaper than an OVF, but so far, it's more expensive. In addition to being not good enough yet to compete aesthetically. The real mirrorless vs DSLR battle isn't even going to start until the EVFs get quite a bit better and cheaper.

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It must be said though, that some OVFs are not very nice to use. 'Dark little tunnels' has often been used to describe them. I'd rather have a good EVF than a bad OVF, and I'd rather have a good OVF than a bad EVF. I just like to see what I'm shooting as clearly as possible.

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wildlifr
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Re: In Defense of the DSLR
In reply to Cailean Gallimore, 10 months ago

Cailean Gallimore wrote:

The unshakeable belief that *some* Canikon users have, that their equipment is 'better,' and that they as a consequence of ownership are 'better,' borders on superstition.

Cargo cult, anyone?

Browse the various forums a bit and it's clear to see which is the most cult-like. I'll give you a hint. It's the one full of people clamoring to pay $1400.00 for the new Olympus E-M1; a camera which can't even match the performance of the Nikon D7100 at $250.00 less, let alone full frame. DSLRs may or may not have something to worry about in the future, but m4/3 is certainly no threat now.

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Cailean Gallimore
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Re: In Defense of the DSLR
In reply to wildlifr, 10 months ago

wildlifr wrote:

Cailean Gallimore wrote:

The unshakeable belief that *some* Canikon users have, that their equipment is 'better,' and that they as a consequence of ownership are 'better,' borders on superstition.

Cargo cult, anyone?

Browse the various forums a bit and it's clear to see which is the most cult-like. I'll give you a hint. It's the one full of people clamoring to pay $1400.00 for the new Olympus E-M1; a camera which can't even match the performance of the Nikon D7100 at $250.00 less, let alone full frame. DSLRs may or may not have something to worry about in the future, but m4/3 is certainly no threat now.

I agree. The Olympus has some clever and useful features, but the sensor size and a few other factors mean that it's not even near match for any DSLR at the same price point.

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Henry Falkner
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Re: In Defense of the DSLR
In reply to Kodachrome200, 10 months ago

What I dislike about DSLRS is the awful noise they make. Every public introduction of celebrities is marred by the machine gun-like fire from these monstrosities. The concept that photographers and videographers should remain silent witnesses to such events is completely alien to these 'professionals'.

Translating this to the tourist scene - do I want the clattering mirrors and krchunking of roller blind shutters spoiling my video sound in Kelly Tarlton's Undersea World or on the Sky Tower viewing galleries?

In addition, on the Devonport-Auckland ferry the typical DSLR operator needs two seats, one for himself and another for his gear.

Granted, EVFs still leave something to be desired. While there are now high resolution EVFs, their refresh rate really needs to be 120 per second for reliable tracking of fast objects. At 30fps a flying gannet can be gone during one frame refresh.

To go back to my gripe, I take videos from the top of my accordion during our public Morris dance performances. On my Olympus SZ-30MR pocket P&S I can take full resolution stills in the middle of a video take (when there are enough musicians to allow me to take my hands off my own keyboard). These stills are totally invisible and inaudible on the downloaded video.

I have been asked over the last few months to take videos and stills during conversations between a New Zealand artist and his regular buyer. These have come about because I could do the first few with a minimum of disruption. The fact that the videos now exist is assisting the artist to gain wider publicity for his work - which in turn helps with his order book. Because I conducted myself in a manner that he could tolerate at the beginning, I am now a welcome visitor in my photographic capacity.

In my perception, the gear available for 'professional' photographers and videographers turns them into a bunch of interfering bar stewards. They should have no influence on the events they attend. I have in my possession a 'professionally' made DVD of a regular Jazz Band evening, the format of which was visibly and audibly disrupted by the video crew - and this was commented on after I managed to record an evening without disruption, which as a consequence has a much enhanced musical quality when compared to the 'professional' effort.

Henry

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Midwest
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Re: In Defense of the DSLR
In reply to Kodachrome200, 10 months ago

Nice of you to do it, but the DSLR doesn't need defending. The only people complaining about DSLRs are people who don't use them. By tearing down the DSLR it helps them feel as though their mirrorless or 'other' camera is superior.

They like to tell us how 'bloated' our cameras are and then they post photos of their mirrorless cameras with big honkin' zooms ("Look! It's almost as big as Dad's!") and with tacked on EVFs that make their small cameras a lot less compact.

I've got a Canon 7D, it's not a small camera by any stretch, and I love it. Body controls I can work with, it's great to shoot with, and it doesn't feel the need to stick 'PRO' on the body anyplace to make it seem really 'pro'.

Ever notice it's always that other crowd trying to tear down the DSLR, while most DSLR users don't bother about that little puppy nipping at our heels. Shoo, little puppies!

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Reilly Diefenbach
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Re: In defense of dinosaurs
In reply to jkoch2, 10 months ago

In the meantime, it's nice to own a Tyrannosaurus :^)  King of cameras!

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brianric
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Re: In Defense of the DSLR
In reply to Kodachrome200, 10 months ago

Kodachrome200 wrote:

The fact is the current state of technology EVFs are sad little things that arent nearly up to alot of peoples standards. There plenty of valid reasons to want a full frame sensor. The almost complete lack of professional zoom lenses in the mirrorless segment and other issues with lens choices are real problem for a lot of people. and you have to realize that alot people don't want small light cameras. Not everyone but a high end camera for traveling or for hiking. Sometimes ergonomics are more important than size.

You do realize even if evfs become so good you cant tell the difference between them and reality they actually still may not be preferable to alot of people. I personally would rather not see exposure or white balance previewed in camera. and even if everyone decided to get cameras with evfs most pro's and a lot of other people would choose ones that were no smaller than current full frame cameras and they would have full frame sensors. I suspect they will be made my canon and nikon and use the same lens mount we are currently using.

Clearly Mirrorless cameras are going to have there share of the market dslrs used to dominate. but just like i really doubt cell phones are going to kill compact cameras, i think Dslrs are going to be around a long time

In M43 world, you have the Panny 12-35/2.8 and 35-100/2.8. On the Olympus side you are going to have the 12-40/2.8 and 40-150/2.8. Sounds pretty professional to me. There are some people that do want small light cameras, I'm one of them. I happen to own four Nikon FF cameras. There are times when shooting events with two cameras where, if I would like to have one lighter weight camera. I find myself when shooting with two cameras the 2.8 glass stays home.

You obviously haven't seen the latest sales figures, but Point and shoot compact cameras have dropped 48% in sales volume in 2012. (http://sociable.co/technology/smartphones-and-the-collapse-of-digital-camera-market. I shoot a lot of events, and it is rare to see someone with a point and shoot camera. It is the camera phone, or DSLRs, with FF in the minority of DSLR cameras. I do see a few crop DSLRs, but outside of myself, I have not seen anyone with a FF camera at all the events I shot this year. If the Olympus OM-D E-M1 lives up to its hype, I will be waiting in line to acquire one.

http://sociable.co/technology/smartphones-and-the-collapse-of-digital-camera-market/

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Midwest
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Re: Just die already DSLRs
In reply to Beach Bum, 10 months ago

Beach Bum wrote:

I've personally never contended that pros only use Canon or Nikon because they don't know any better, although that's certainly part of it.

The fact of the matter is, it's not like Canon or Nikon have any special sauce or special know-how of how to make DSLRs. The reason they're market leaders is because they cornered the market long ago, and now it's prohibitively expensive for any other manufacturer to compete.

Yes, this is also why Honda and Toyota are leaders in compact cars. Everyone knows they make crap, but it would be too expensive for other companies to compete against them anymore.

The only way for another manufacturer to compete in the camera business is to do something else. There's absolutely zero evidence that these two are innovators in any way, and I believe they're pretty much stifling the camera industry as a whole.

Of course.

Also, the so-called professional isn't a driver of anything. There are far more average consumers than there are professionals.

I find it amusing when either a manufacturer sticks 'PRO' on their products or when users of the smaller brands start worrying about whether their newest model can compete against the big boys from Nikon and Canon with professionals. Why worry, if the camera does what the USER wants it to?

Canon and Nikon sit at the top only because the average consumer is aligned with the pro at the moment. When the wind shifts, which, don't kid yourself, it will, the pro could find himself sitting alone defending the DSLR, while everyone else happily uses their, just as functional but smaller, mirrorless model.

When the smaller mirrorless model becomes just as functional as the DSLR then things will change. And when ladies' high heel shoes become as functional as work boots, then lady truckers and lady factory workers will wear them to work. It's bound to happen any month now!

And lets not forget that budget DSLRs have crappy OVFs, and EVFs in this price segment may be great sight better (no pun intended) than OVFs.

My first two DSLR's were Canon Rebels, reputed to have those 'crappy' OVF's. But I never felt deprived, and I never gave a though to 'gee I wish I had an EVF so I could have some tearing and freezing'. Even the cheapest DSLR OVF is working with light at the speed of light.

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Midwest
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Re: In Defense of the DSLR
In reply to D Cox, 10 months ago

D Cox wrote:

Kodachrome200 wrote:

live view at this stage is not sharp enought visually to focus manually without zooming or peaking

thats the primary disadvantage you can see well enough. again many people will pay more to overcome this

Well, peaking is the whole point. It is a better way of judging focus than a ground glass, microprism, or rangefinder. It operates across the whole image area and is very clear.

And it is derived from the actual image that the camera will record, not from some other surface that may or may not be at the same distance from the lens.

However, you can also if you want magnify the image for careful focussing.

Not all of us are shooting bowls of fruit or flowers or scenic vistas where we can focus at leisure between puffs on our Meerschaum pipes. We have to use autofocus, it has to be fast, and by and large it does a very fine job for us.

Really, why do so many people worry about what kind of camera someone ELSE uses? I don't have any problem with someone using mirrorless if it works for their kind of shooting. Why must they come around trying to tell me that their camera is good enough for my kind of shooting, when I know it's not? Are they getting a commission on mirrorless camera sales or something?

I don't care if someone is happy with mirrorless. Fine, I am happy that they like it. I just don't need them coming around trying to convince me (rather, themselves) that what they have is as good for my purposes when it's not.

Everyone should enjoy shooting what works for them and stop worrying about what works for the other guy.

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aarif
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Re: In Defense of the DSLR
In reply to Kodachrome200, 10 months ago

I was looking at all the mirrorless systems to pickup one for when I don't what to carry a lot of gear but there are still many issues that stopped me

1)EVF not in love with it but can live with it so not a big issue

2)AF slow sluggish is a big no no for me

3)lens selection very limited

4)battery life people don't mention this enough but it's a big issue for me 300-400 shots means that I would need 2-3 batteries fully charged every day when traveling to feel comfortable and the 2 things that create this problem are 1 being small the other the EVF. I don't know why we're not seeing any improvment in batteries from such a long time

These thing will eventually be ironed out but will they replace DSLRs totally not in the near future me thinks

arif

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Midwest
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Re: Agree
In reply to PerL, 10 months ago

PerL wrote:

Kodachrome200 wrote:You do realize even if evfs become so good you cant tell the difference between them and reality they actually still may not be preferable to alot of people. I personally would rather not see exposure or white balance previewed in camera.

Exactly - it is only disturbing, it is better to learn to expose and concentrate on the subject.

Some people like having all that in their viewfinder and if so then that's okay with me. I want a viewfinder that does the best possible job of being a viewfinder, and leaving the exposure and white balance etc. to the camera's other systems meant to handle those things. I shoot RAW anyhow and other than being grossly off the settings, I doubt anyone can expect to set a perfect white balance off an EVF.

and even if everyone decided to get cameras with evfs most pro's and a lot of other people would choose ones that were no smaller than current full frame cameras and they would have full frame sensors. I suspect they will be made my canon and nikon and use the same lens mount we are currently using.

Clearly Mirrorless cameras are going to have there share of the market dslrs used to dominate. but just like i really doubt cell phones are going to kill compact cameras, i think Dslrs are going to be around a long time

DSLRs are by far the most effective shooting machines in the photo world, IQ-wise, ergonomical, lens wise.

DSLR's were designed with functionality and capability as the top of the criteria list - not 'compact' or 'fits in a pocket'. And it shows.

If mirrorless does what someone needs then fine, good for them. But don't come around insisting 'my camera is so good for me it is good enough for what you do as well'. Drop the insecurity and just use your camera.

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Midwest
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Re: In Defense of the DSLR
In reply to Cailean Gallimore, 10 months ago

Cailean Gallimore wrote:

Some people have invested so much ego into the idea that a DSLR makes them a 'serious' photographer, that they feel the need to defend them.

How odd.

Why worry about others' cameras to the extent that now you are analyzing their egos? If you are happy with your camera, don't try to build it up by tearing down others. Use it!

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Midwest
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Re: In Defense of the DSLR
In reply to Cailean Gallimore, 10 months ago

Cailean Gallimore wrote:

The unshakeable belief that *some* Canikon users have, that their equipment is 'better,' and that they as a consequence of ownership are 'better,' borders on superstition.

Cargo cult, anyone?

LOL, more psycho-analysis of why others use different cameras.

Desperation?

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lazy lightning
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Re: In Defense of the DSLR
In reply to Cailean Gallimore, 10 months ago

Cailean Gallimore wrote:

Some people have invested so much ego into the idea that a DSLR makes them a 'serious' photographer, that they feel the need to defend them.

How odd.

And yet we have a very vocal bunch that have invested so much ego in M4/3 and or mirrorless that they have to predict the death of most every other digital format other than their own.

Or cook up conspiracy theories about how big, bad Canikon are keeping the poor man down.

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Midwest
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Re: The film SLR was great, too
In reply to TrapperJohn, 10 months ago

TrapperJohn wrote:

I still have my old Nikon F3AF, and the AF lenses and teleconverter made for it. It's built like a tank, you could probably drive nails with the body. Nothing really wrong with it, and it served me well for quite a few years.

Great collector's piece. I would have something like that in my display case in a heartbeat.

It was retired in favor of a dslr, not because the dslr was better, but because it was the same capability, and a lot more convenient.That, in a nutshell, sums up state of the art mirrorless like the EM1 as compared to the latest DSLR's. Same capability, a lot more convenient.

Same capability for SOME things. Not everyone who uses a DSLR could just switch to an EVF and say 'oh, no difference after all'. Not unless they are shooting less demanding subjects.

It really is nice to have a slender little EM5, and a couple of fast primes in a fanny pack, as opposed to a full size DSLR and a bag full of lenses. Definitely more convenient, for me and for the people around me.

If you're happy with it then good for you. BTW I don't have 'a bag full of lenses' for my DSLR. Nobody really needs 'a bag full of lenses' just because they have a DSLR. That's a real straw man.

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Cailean Gallimore
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Re: In Defense of the DSLR
In reply to Kodachrome200, 10 months ago

I actually have two DSLRs which I use on a daily basis, so I'm as bad or good as anybody else I'm not a member of the DSLR uber alles brigade, though

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brianric
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Re: In Defense of the DSLR
In reply to Midwest, 10 months ago

Midwest wrote:

Ever notice it's always that other crowd trying to tear down the DSLR, while most DSLR users don't bother about that little puppy nipping at our heels. Shoo, little puppies!

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paulkienitz
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Re: In Defense of the DSLR
In reply to Cailean Gallimore, 10 months ago

Cailean Gallimore wrote:

It must be said though, that some OVFs are not very nice to use. 'Dark little tunnels' has often been used to describe them. I'd rather have a good EVF than a bad OVF, and I'd rather have a good OVF than a bad EVF. I just like to see what I'm shooting as clearly as possible.

This is one reason why I believe full frame is eventually going to take over most of OVF-land, leaving the crop-sensor market largely to mirrorless.  It just gives a much better viewfinder experience, and that's something that even the most naive customers will notice right away when they try a camera in the shop.

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walkaround
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Re: Just die already DSLRs
In reply to Dennis, 10 months ago

Dennis wrote:

  • Those companies will eventually introduce mirrorless cameras for their SLR lens mounts, providing the technical benefits of mirrorless (minus the size benefits of the reduced registration distance lens mount)

Canon already tried this with an EF adapter for the EOS-M. Nobody other than forum basement trolls are using EF glass on the M. Take a Canon Elph, duct tape your EF 50mm 1.4 to the front of it to get a good sense of the ergonomics we're talking about.

  • The size benefits of the reduced registration distance lens mount aren't all that significant unless you step down in sensor size and accept the compromises of doing that

You might not be aware, but Leica and other companies have been making small full frame lenses for 80 years or so. The size savings is "significant" when you don't have to worry about a flipping mirror.

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paulkienitz
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Re: In Defense of the DSLR
In reply to stevo23, 10 months ago

stevo23 wrote:

I don't understand why people have to get so egregious in either direction. I've owned several cameras over the years including an old Contax, a few classic Kodaks, Speed Graphic, some TLRs, a studio 4x5, several compacts including the old "baby rollei" which I still have, a few Nikons and a couple of mirrorless enthusiast zooms. I've enjoyed them all for their strengths and weaknesses and find the history of every camera company fascinating and fun to learn about.

Exactly.  There's no reason whatever to pick a side and spew hate and bile at the other.  I own one of each type, and if I had enough money to buy whatever cameras I wanted, I'd probably still go for one of each type... like for instance pairing a Nikon D800 and V3, or an Oly EM-1 and a medium format.

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