Thom Hogan: Impact of mFT on Nikon DX line

Started 11 months ago | Discussions
jim stirling
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Re: Missing the mark, somewhat
In reply to YouDidntDidYou, 11 months ago

YouDidntDidYou wrote:

Same was being done on Nikon forums but hey they were still asleep at the wheel or arrogant and over confident...

I saw one post in the Nikonians forum , you yourself were chasing votes all over the net why I don't know

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jim stirling
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Re: I am not really sure if they are skimming the cream either ..
In reply to rbattsall, 11 months ago

rbattsall wrote:

jim stirling wrote:

rrr_hhh wrote:

Sergey_Green wrote:

Sean Nelson wrote:

justmeMN wrote:

If Olympus had been aggressive in pricing, the D7100 would have been toast this Christmas.

Oh please. Here (USA), Olympus can't even get their product on store shelves, and have virtually no advertising.

I think that getting stock into stores is the bigger half of the problem. If they price the cameras competitively then I think retailers would be a lot more inclined to stock them. But right now it seems like Panasonic and Olympus are both skimming the cream from the enthusiasts who are willing to pay a premium for their gear.

Here in EU ( and forget about dX )

Nikon D600 (SLR) Gehäuse (VBA340AE) ab €1418,78

Olympus OM-D E-M1 (EVIL) Gehäuse schwarz (V207010BE000) ab €1499,

Canon EOS 6D (SLR) Gehäuse (8035B022) ab €1515,04

I already asked the same question somewhere else, what would you buy for the same money;

  1. the camera that is easier to carry
  2. the camera that will take better images

Many, and those who know what to do with it, take the second option. And so the stores are hardly making any profits on the first. In fact, Olympus imaging division themselves have been losing money for quite some time now, and OM-D is not helping much either.

It isn't as simple as you make it : the real question is how much more weight and bulk people will accept for the marginal IQ they would gain and that marginal IQ increase (which many people didn't really need) comes along with a huge size/weight increase (often the total gear weight is twice as heavy).

To be fair that same argument can be put forward for one camera solutions such as the RX100 which is notably closer in sensor performance to the E-M5 than the E-M5 is to the D800e {all selected for being best in each sensor size} The RX100 has almost exactly the same colour depth and DR as the E-M5 while being a fraction over one stop poorer in high ISO. The D800 on the other hand has a full 2.8 stops colour depth advantage along with, 2 stops DR and 1.7 stops high ISO advantage over the E-M5 along with the extra resolution, I think I would say that is more than a marginal gain.

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-cameras-side-by-side/%28appareil1%29/812|0/%28brand%29/Sony/%28appareil2%29/793|0/%28brand2%29/Olympus/%28appareil3%29/814|0/%28brand3%29/Nikon

Oh Jim, If you care that much then if you haven't already ( and really suspect you already have! ) go buy a D800 and brag about it in the Nikon forum as most people in this forum don't really care. You see for most regulars here m43 is already good enough for most of the pictures they take most of the time so they are mostly satisfied already.

I have had a D800 since it came out just as I have had mFT gear since the GF1 came out. With mFT gear getting most use by far

This continuous debate that 'my sensor is bigger than yours so I have the best camera' is getting very boring and clogging this forum. It would be better if you started some threads in the Nikon forum with headers like - 'Hey My Nikon has the best sensor this side of medium format - I don't understand why some people can't see the benefit of it over m43!' Plenty of people will happily agree with you and I might even chirp in with 'but what about medium format!'

I know its only at ISO 35 but have you seen the quality of the Phase 1 on the new DPreview comparison .Unfortunately while you can buy decent FF gear for not much more than the best mFT gear.The MF stuff is into the realms of car purchases

And to try to compare a compact to people with interchangeable lenses is just silly. You don't need to convince anyone else, just be happy that you have chosen the best gear for you....(?) or is that the reason you like it here so much.

The post I was responding to was in relation to size/weight versus image quality. The RX100 is a lot closer to the E-M5 in image quality than the E-M5 is to the D800 all in a smaller lighter set up.

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rhlpetrus
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Re: Really? Re: Missing the mark, somewhat
In reply to Promit, 11 months ago

Promit wrote:

thorkilry wrote:

Robert Morris wrote:

He is just chiding Nikon on the lapse of DX lens support. Fortunately we have have Sigma Tokina and a few other filling in the gaps the new Sigma 18-35mm f/1.8 which has no equal anywhere else, has make me and a few other I know really wanting to stay in the DX camp at least for now. Most of us have gotten a mirrorless to play with (The close out pricing was to good to resist) but the IQ and feature set we value just aren't there yet.

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RM

You obviously have not tried the last generation m43, with ligthning fast AF, and 5 axis stabilisation

I have, and I still have an APS-C system, specifically an SLT A77. In fact I have been moving over to the SLT more because it's just a more capable camera. It actually annoys me a bit, because I like my EM5 and would love to keep a single lens system. A77 and lenses are huge. But I do a lot of sports/action/animals shooting and the EM5 cannot keep up. I also do a lot of video and the EM5 doesn't stack up there either. (GH3 might have IF it had peaking. DOH!)

I don't know what most people shoot with their DSLRs, but I do think that most people would probably be better off with a mirrorless camera. The EM5 is faster than my A77 in many ways, but it costs more and raises too mnay "but" questions for many. But what about AFC? But what about sensor size? Etc. I need the focusing performance, I need the 2.8 zoom lenses, and I need the video. I wish I didn't but I do, and m4/3 doesn't deliver completely yet. I think they will in the next two to three years though. The EM1 is oh so close. It doesn't have the video quality and the system cost is a bit heart stopping. ($2200 vs $1500 for the A77.) But everything else is there.

Stil, to many "buts" in my opinion, I want a camera that responds in any situation, that has full manual controls and that produces the best possible IQ. Dslrs are still it in that case. I actually use a ML for light traveling, but I know its limitations.

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jim stirling
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Re: I am not really sure if they are skimming the cream either ..
In reply to rrr_hhh, 11 months ago

rrr_hhh wrote:

jim stirling wrote:

rrr_hhh wrote:

Sergey_Green wrote:

Sean Nelson wrote:

justmeMN wrote:

If Olympus had been aggressive in pricing, the D7100 would have been toast this Christmas.

Oh please. Here (USA), Olympus can't even get their product on store shelves, and have virtually no advertising.

I think that getting stock into stores is the bigger half of the problem. If they price the cameras competitively then I think retailers would be a lot more inclined to stock them. But right now it seems like Panasonic and Olympus are both skimming the cream from the enthusiasts who are willing to pay a premium for their gear.

Here in EU ( and forget about dX )

Nikon D600 (SLR) Gehäuse (VBA340AE) ab €1418,78

Olympus OM-D E-M1 (EVIL) Gehäuse schwarz (V207010BE000) ab €1499,

Canon EOS 6D (SLR) Gehäuse (8035B022) ab €1515,04

I already asked the same question somewhere else, what would you buy for the same money;

  1. the camera that is easier to carry
  2. the camera that will take better images

Many, and those who know what to do with it, take the second option. And so the stores are hardly making any profits on the first. In fact, Olympus imaging division themselves have been losing money for quite some time now, and OM-D is not helping much either.

It isn't as simple as you make it : the real question is how much more weight and bulk people will accept for the marginal IQ they would gain and that marginal IQ increase (which many people didn't really need) comes along with a huge size/weight increase (often the total gear weight is twice as heavy).

To be fair that same argument can be put forward for one camera solutions such as the RX100 which is notably closer in sensor performance to the E-M5 than the E-M5 is to the D800e {all selected for being best in each sensor size} The RX100 has almost exactly the same colour depth and DR as the E-M5 while being a fraction over one stop poorer in high ISO. The D800 on the other hand has a full 2.8 stops colour depth advantage along with, 2 stops DR and 1.7 stops high ISO advantage over the E-M5 along with the extra resolution, I think I would say that is more than a marginal gain.

isn't the RX100 a fixed lens camera ?

Your point seemed to be about size/weight in relation to image quality.,

""how much more weight and bulk people will accept for the marginal IQ they would gain and that marginal IQ increase (which many people didn't really need) comes along with a huge size/weight increase""

The RX100 is a lot closer to the E-M5 than the E-M5 is to the D800 in a lighter smaller package { when lenses are added}

As for marginal gain, eachone values it differently. I happen to use Canons, so my marginal increase is surely less than those having state of the art sensors. Still, there is a bigger leap when you go from very small sensors (iPhone or the smaller entry level compacts) to MFT than going from MFT to FF (especially if it is a Canon FF like mine). Frankly, the E-M5 is at least as good as my Canon 5D1 (indeed it has a better DR), but would you say that going from the 5D1 to the 6D the marginal gain in IQ is phenomenal ? Digital sensors have made such progress that seeing gains like between the E-P3 and the E-M5 is very rare. IMO the improvement you get between an older 12meg Panasonic sensor and the new E-M5 sensor was more important than the improvement I see between the 5D1 and the 6D.

The jump from the the E-P3 to E-M5 was only within Olympus ,Panasonic already had a number of better performing sensors .The jump from the GH2 to E-M5 was less dramatic .The 5D is 8yrs old an antique in digital terms while the E-M5 does indeed have a 1.2 stop advantage in DR , it is behind the 5D in colour depth { just a smidgeon} and even high ISO.

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-cameras-side-by-side/%28appareil1%29/812|0/%28brand%29/Sony/%28appareil2%29/793|0/%28brand2%29/Olympus/%28appareil3%29/814|0/%28brand3%29/Nikon

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jim stirling
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Re: I am not really sure if they are skimming the cream either ..
In reply to Sean Nelson, 11 months ago

Sean Nelson wrote:

rbattsall wrote:

jim stirling wrote:

rrr_hhh wrote:

Sergey_Green wrote:

Sean Nelson wrote:

justmeMN wrote:

If Olympus had been aggressive in pricing, the D7100 would have been toast this Christmas.

Oh please. Here (USA), Olympus can't even get their product on store shelves, and have virtually no advertising.

I think that getting stock into stores is the bigger half of the problem. If they price the cameras competitively then I think retailers would be a lot more inclined to stock them. But right now it seems like Panasonic and Olympus are both skimming the cream from the enthusiasts who are willing to pay a premium for their gear.

I already asked the same question somewhere else, what would you buy for the same money;

  1. the camera that is easier to carry
  2. the camera that will take better images

Many, and those who know what to do with it, take the second option. And so the stores are hardly making any profits on the first. In fact, Olympus imaging division themselves have been losing money for quite some time now, and OM-D is not helping much either.

It isn't as simple as you make it : the real question is how much more weight and bulk people will accept for the marginal IQ they would gain and that marginal IQ increase (which many people didn't really need) comes along with a huge size/weight increase (often the total gear weight is twice as heavy).

To be fair that same argument can be put forward for one camera solutions such as the RX100 which is notably closer in sensor performance to the E-M5 than the E-M5 is to the D800e {all selected for being best in each sensor size}

This is absolutely true. I just bought an RX100M2 to serve as my "take-everywhere" camera after grudgingly admitting to myself that no M43 offerings are ever likely to be quite compact enough for me to use in that role. The RX100M2 is also the only compact camera that has 1080p60 video and a tilting LCD screen - another must-have for me.

I have looked at some of the excellent images coming from the RX100/2 and it looks quite tempting unfortunately for me I loathe composing on a rear LCD and adding the EVF to the RX1002 makes for a pricey combination.

I'm pretty amazed by what it can do, and although I've long been planning to buy into M43, the RX100M2 has me seriously questioning whether I really need to. If I do, it won't be because of any advantage in "image quality" (whatever that means) but rather to get more flexibility in terms of focal length and DOF control than the RX100 can offer.

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erichK
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Re: I am not really sure if they are skimming the cream either ..
In reply to rrr_hhh, 11 months ago

rrr_hhh wrote:

Sergey_Green wrote:

Sean Nelson wrote:

justmeMN wrote:

If Olympus had been aggressive in pricing, the D7100 would have been toast this Christmas.

Oh please. Here (USA), Olympus can't even get their product on store shelves, and have virtually no advertising.

I think that getting stock into stores is the bigger half of the problem. If they price the cameras competitively then I think retailers would be a lot more inclined to stock them. But right now it seems like Panasonic and Olympus are both skimming the cream from the enthusiasts who are willing to pay a premium for their gear.

Here in EU ( and forget about dX )

Nikon D600 (SLR) Gehäuse (VBA340AE) ab €1418,78

Olympus OM-D E-M1 (EVIL) Gehäuse schwarz (V207010BE000) ab €1499,

Canon EOS 6D (SLR) Gehäuse (8035B022) ab €1515,04

I already asked the same question somewhere else, what would you buy for the same money;

  1. the camera that is easier to carry
  2. the camera that will take better images

Many, and those who know what to do with it, take the second option. And so the stores are hardly making any profits on the first. In fact, Olympus imaging division themselves have been losing money for quite some time now, and OM-D is not helping much either.

It isn't as simple as you make it : the real question is how much more weight and bulk people will accept for the marginal IQ they would gain and that marginal IQ increase (which many people didn't really need) comes along with a huge size/weight increase (often the total gear weight is twice as heavy).

And yes : some people are willing to pay more (or the same amount) for less. And it is way less in bulk and wheight but very few less in IQ and possibilities.

And I'm using both a FF and MFT.

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rrr_hhh

That is very much the point.  I was very interested in the Nikon D800 until I tried shooting a friend's for awhile.  There is no way I want to carry that much weight and equipment for the majority if shooting that I do, and no wau I want equipment that big and obtrusive when I'm somewhere like Rio de Janeiro or Mexico or even shooting almost anywhere where I want to image what is happening without disturbing it.

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Sergey_Green
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Good point also ..
In reply to erichK, 11 months ago

erichK wrote:

That is very much the point. I was very interested in the Nikon D800 until I tried shooting a friend's for awhile. There is no way I want to carry that much weight and equipment for the majority if shooting that I do, and no wau I want equipment that big and obtrusive when I'm somewhere like Rio de Janeiro or Mexico or even shooting almost anywhere where I want to image what is happening without disturbing it.

And I see where you are coming from with this. But the thing is, if you buy smaller and it returns you less (for the sake of the size that is), why pay like you would pay for the larger camera then. Should not the smaller cameras be also priced smaller as well?

Or to put it differently, if the mirrorless cameras do indeed cut into the Dx profits (and they probably do touch somewhere), would not they cut in even more had they been priced accordingly?

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erichK
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In reply to Sergey_Green, 11 months ago

Sergey_Green wrote:

rrr_hhh wrote:

There were long waiting lists to get one : I had preordered one in early March but only got one at the end of August inspite of the fact that in our country Olympus is better distributed than it appears to be in the US.

My take on it is that it can only mean this camera is/was not well distributed (supplied) in your area. Say 5 people ordered and only 3 cameras arrived, Olympus miscalculated there would be 2 people more. Perhaps.

I have seen the same with Nikons, you could walk into the store and buy the most popular camera on the day they arrive, D300 was a good example. Yet, you would need to pre-order the model that is in lesser demand, and been around for a while.

Also Olympus managers have declared it several times : they were themselves surprised by how well the E-M1 was selling. Also here since its launching the price of the E-M5 has remained very stable, loosing less than 10% With respect to its launch price

Well, you see, that's why they distributed only few from the beginning. Like I said, it could mean something entirely different from what you think it is.

By well selling I meant if you have figures, that show this camera did indeed bring profits back to Olympus. You will not find such. Therefore it did not sell well at all.

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- sergey

Such logic, in an industrial sector as complex as high end photo retail, is absurdly simplistic. As has been noted frequently, even megacorporation like Sony, with all their brand prominence, global distribution infrastructure and advertising.

All the retailers I know (Henry's and Visitek in Toronto (both also national chains) Don's Photo (a central Canada Chain), The Camera Store (a very highly regarded Calgary pro shop), London Drugs (a western Canadian chain with extensive camera department) and McBain's (ten Alberta stores, mainly in Edmonton) have, at different times, reported that the OM-D, especially, was selling really well, and that the PL-5 and PM-2 tended to move quickly, as I looked at these cameras and bought my OM-D and PL-5 and my set of lenses for them.

Olympus is essentially in a process of having to re-establish itself as a brand by creating and expanding a whole new market This is a slow process and there are many factors that have to be dealt with before the bean-counter-mantra "bottom line" can be expected to stay in the black.  (It may even be, for the OM-D, but not yet be there for mFT, and can mFT production and distribution cost =s really be separated out from other cameras such as their hi-end compact which uses some of the same components?)

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erichK
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Sergey_Green
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Wow, so many stores (and stories) ..
In reply to erichK, 11 months ago

erichK wrote:

Such logic, in an industrial sector as complex as high end photo retail, is absurdly simplistic. As has been noted frequently, even megacorporation like Sony, with all their brand prominence, global distribution infrastructure and advertising.

All the retailers I know (Henry's and Visitek in Toronto (both also national chains) Don's Photo (a central Canada Chain), The Camera Store (a very highly regarded Calgary pro shop), London Drugs (a western Canadian chain with extensive camera department) and McBain's (ten Alberta stores, mainly in Edmonton) have, at different times, reported that the OM-D, especially, was selling really well, and that the PL-5 and PM-2 tended to move quickly, as I looked at these cameras and bought my OM-D and PL-5 and my set of lenses for them.

And this has been on for several years now? Olympus is not new in this business, how come their imaging division does not make any profits then?

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Persistent writing .. on the wall .. ;)
In reply to TrapperJohn, 11 months ago

TrapperJohn wrote:

Nikon hasn't made any big leaps and bounds since the D3... unless you count the D90's video (a first, building on Oly's live view in the 330)... but that's also true of the dslr in general. It isn't seeing the big leaps and bounds of functionality that were evident in the mid 2000's.

The D7100's greatest competition isn't the EM1. It's the D7000. The D7100 didn't improve on it all that much, so Nikon lost much of their largest potential customer base: D7000 owners. Not so much a Nikon problem as an industry problem. Canon's sales of 5DIII were lower than expected for the same reason - many 5DII owners decided that the improvements didn't justify the expense. In both cases, the global recession didn't help matters any.

From 10mpx to 12mpx to 36mpx and being king of Dr is not a progress?

Sony... until Sony learns how and especially why to build good lenses, and lots of them, they'll remain a perennial also-ran. It's the most common reason people choose µ43 over NEX: not much glass, and what little they have is quite large.

I don't think Sony will destroy what Zeiss and Minolta have done so far.

What Nikon faces is what any camera company heavily vested in the dslr design faces: stagnation.

You call 35-100/2 equivalent to say Nikon 70-200/4 but larger, twice as heavy, twice as expensive, and in front of a 16mpx sensor a progress?

The design has been pushed about as far as it can go. Sensor tech is at the point where further improvement does not yield much in the way of tangible results under typical photo circumstances, so the large sensor advantage isn't nearly what it once was.

So what you are saying is that you never get clipped highlights on any scene you like? I find it difficult to believe. Or for the same angle of view your f/5.6 lens is as good as my f/2.8? Does not sound right either. All else equal (imagine that), what else am I missing?

The optical viewfinder might get better with digital overlays, but it's expensive to do that, and still doesn't deliver the preview and review modes of the EVF. The only real improvement that can be made is - size. And the dslr's VF, legacy film lens mount and registration distance limit how much it can be improved there.

Yet the FF camera with more mpx in it is prices lower than the mFT, what do you care how they make it?

The dslr has also lost the enthusiasm and excitement that drove much of it's booming sales in the 2000's. Where are those great leaps and bounds happening today? Right here. Look at the dpr top ten clicked list today: two high end compacts, three dslr's, and five mirrorless. Including one, the EM5, that's been on that list since January, 2012.

They moved phone cams to a new site altogether. This is not how you judge (and select) your equipment, is it?

That enthusiasm may not be reflected directly in current sales, but it's pretty unambiguous handwriting on the wall. That's where things are headed.

You had a very similar tune about FT years ago, from post to post repeating the same, and yet it is nowhere to be found in the stores today. How is that E-3 fitting your hand, not bad I hope?

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YouDidntDidYou
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Re: they know; but it's expensive
In reply to Eamon Hickey, 11 months ago

I mostly agree with you, that's why Olympus has taken the path of being more effective on social media and using viral marketing...

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YouDidntDidYou
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Re: That's what I see
In reply to jim stirling, 11 months ago

UK is not Europe, also you have seen graphs that show mirrorless has much higher market penetration in the UK than other European countries. Did I say mirrorless was dominating....erm no.

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erichK
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Re: Good point also ..
In reply to Sergey_Green, 11 months ago

Sergey_Green wrote:

erichK wrote:

That is very much the point. I was very interested in the Nikon D800 until I tried shooting a friend's for awhile. There is no way I want to carry that much weight and equipment for the majority if shooting that I do, and no wau I want equipment that big and obtrusive when I'm somewhere like Rio de Janeiro or Mexico or even shooting almost anywhere where I want to image what is happening without disturbing it.

And I see where you are coming from with this. But the thing is, if you buy smaller and it returns you less (for the sake of the size that is), why pay like you would pay for the larger camera then. Should not the smaller cameras be also priced smaller as well?

Or to put it differently, if the mirrorless cameras do indeed cut into the Dx profits (and they probably do touch somewhere), would not they cut in even more had they been priced accordingly?

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- sergey

I really don't see where it "returns me less".

As I read your restatement of this worn-out refrain, I can't help but note how much your like the logic of the editors of Newsweek in the 1930's, when they fired W. Eugene Smith from his first real job because supposedly compromised their "quality standards" by using 35mm instead of a Speed Graphic.  It also recalls the show of Cartier-Bresson's pictures I saw at the Chicago Art Institute in 2010: most of the magnificent images had a much lower resolution, dynamic range, etc than even a good digital point and shoot delivers today.  And most of them could never have been shot with a camera as noisy, bulky and awkward to carry and use as the dslr's that some are touting here.

Bigger is not always better, and in about 80% of my shooting, the OM-D can get the shot a - and often more- easily than a dslr would: quieter, more discrete, superb image-stabilization. For another 10%, the winter shooting with gloves, long telephoto and moderate CAF, the EM-1 should do just fine, though I'll keep my E-5 for some of that, too.

For final 5% - really fast CAF, very low light, very detailed landscape shots I may borrow a friend's D3s or D800 or 5DII or even rent one. I can find no reason to own that much depreciating gadgetry (over $10K once one has a second body and five or  really good lenses for gear I could seldom justify hauling.)

As you surely know as an experienced and serious photographer, it's the total kit that matters, and for half of that sum, I have put together a superbly discrete and portable one: OM-D, PL-5 (which, btw, costs $500 with 14-42 kit lens), 12-50 zoom, 12/f2, 45/1.8, 60macro, 75/1.8 and 45-200 zoom.  All in a slim, light Domke F5C bag that I can carry all day and easily and safely carry almost anywhere.

-- hide signature --

erichK
saskatoon, canada
Photography is a small voice, at best, but sometimes one photograph, or a group of them, can lure our sense of awareness.
- W. Eugene Smith, Dec 30, 1918 to Oct 15, 1978.
http://erichk.zenfolio.com/
http://www.fototime.com/inv/7F3D846BCD301F3
underwater photos:
http://www.scubaboard.com/gallery/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/5567

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Sergey_Green
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How would anyone know ..
In reply to erichK, 11 months ago

erichK wrote:

I really don't see where it "returns me less".

That you are not sure,

Nikon D600 (SLR) Gehäuse (VBA340AE) ab €1418,78

Olympus OM-D E-M1 (EVIL) Gehäuse schwarz (V207010BE000) ab €1499,

I don't think OM-D1 is much different. Although JPG is tuned to the max I presume.

Again, we are not talking about what's good for you, otherwise the entire thread would be just about you. What we are talking about is what the majority see and take from it. As I already repeated it several times.

- sergey

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Meuh
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Re: Thom Hogan: Impact of mFT on Nikon DX line
In reply to Anderton, 11 months ago

Pentax k500/505ii with a sigma 18-35 f1.8 would be a hard to beat combo...

Great low light af (k5ii), great body and erganomics, sensor stabilized, great price and much more dynamic range than any apsc and even ff Canons at base iso.... so I have no idea why you tell people to avoid nikon and go Canon when in apsc terms pentax is the best around atm with lots of nice apcs lens of there own including the great ltd series of small primes.

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ForeignerOnEarth
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Re: Thom Hogan: Impact of mFT on Nikon DX line
In reply to rrr_hhh, 11 months ago

Sory, but the sensor area of Nikon D7100 = 163% of the Olympus OM-D E-M1 sensor area. No only 30% bigger. 163% = 0.70 EV exactly. The 0.70 EV signal gain can be divided to the sum of lower noise + bigger real resolution.

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Mark Thornton
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Re: More correct sensor area comparison
In reply to fotowbert, 11 months ago

fotowbert wrote:

Not sure how you get "only 30% bigger than MFT sensors"

  • John

30% is the linear difference. As to which is better, I would say neither, in photographic terms the EV or stop difference is usually most appropriate.

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lazy lightning
Regular MemberPosts: 174
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Re: D7100 v. E-M5 on flickr
In reply to YouDidntDidYou, 11 months ago

YouDidntDidYou wrote:

They both have about 600 daily users but...E-M5 users have uploaded 250% more photos suggesting that E-M5 users are getting more out of their cameras. I'm also willing to bet that that more E-M5 users have recently purchased lenses than D7100 users.....

Or it could suggest that D7100 users are busy taking photos instead of uploading to flickr. It also might suggest that D7100 users are actually printing their photos which I'm sure is a wonderful experience unlike printing anything above a 4"x6" with M4/3.

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Dr_Jon
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Re: That's what I see
In reply to YouDidntDidYou, 11 months ago

Walking around London it's rare to see m43 cameras (some days I make a point of checking out what's popular), and they are usually the small/cheap ones in the hands of female far eastern tourists (I think mostly Japanese). Last weekend I saw more Pentax Q cameras than m43 (well, unless my m43 was included, then it was a draw - oh and yes, that was unusual). I know no-one else personally with a m43 camera (I do recommend them sometimes, but no luck so far). I know a lot of photographers (okay, a slight bias towards Pros, but two of them use Sony FF so it's a pretty diverse bunch).

All my non-pro friends who have something better than a compact are Canon/Nikon.

So my feeling is the Japanese figures are a fair reflection of the UK situation. Note they don't include Samsung, who do make mirrorless cameras, and a couple of really good ones, but don't have any traction here and so again I mostly see them with tourists.

P.S. it was pretty scary at both the Thames Festival and Carnival as to how many amateurs were carrying two large bodies with a std (24-70-ish) and telephoto (70-200/70-300) zoom. I assume they were amateurs as their positions weren't good for the available light. I went GH3 for both, partly as at Carnival I fancied light and non-expensive-looking.

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Haris
Regular MemberPosts: 403
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Re: How would anyone know ..
In reply to Sergey_Green, 11 months ago

Sergey_Green wrote:

erichK wrote:

I really don't see where it "returns me less".

That you are not sure,

Nikon D600 (SLR) Gehäuse (VBA340AE) ab €1418,78

Olympus OM-D E-M1 (EVIL) Gehäuse schwarz (V207010BE000) ab €1499,

I don't think OM-D1 is much different. Although JPG is tuned to the max I presume.

Again, we are not talking about what's good for you, otherwise the entire thread would be just about you. What we are talking about is what the majority see and take from it. As I already repeated it several times.

- sergey

Stop quoting those prices like "all European average". You have attempted to do this in earlier thread and that is just plain stupid.

Go to www.guengstinger.de and search for both prices. Now do the same for countries like UK, Sweden, Finland and you will see that the reality is far from how you are trying to present it.

Trying same ol' tricks Sergej, but loosing tiny credibility you might have on this place each time you came out with stuff like this. But at least you are not quoting yourself like some of your "friends" do...

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