Pentax K3 rumor from the plant... shhh...

Started Sep 18, 2013 | Discussions
Gary Martin
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Re: sooner or later
In reply to janneman02, Sep 19, 2013

janneman02 wrote:

One of the rumored K-3 announcements will actually happen.

Dont knwo about secs though, just that it will, as usual, be called too little too late and the end of Pentax.

Unless it's a *substantial* upgrade, I would rather it come later. Pentax/Ricoh needs to make a strong case for APS-C in the next generation, with the latest Micro4/3 sensors getting closer to the last generation of APS-C imagers. The successor to the K-5 needs to have as big of a jump in image quality that the K-5 did over the K-20/K-7. The Nikon D7100 wasn't a big enough jump, IMO; I hope Pentax can top them. And if they do, they will sell lots of cameras. If they don't, then it will be just another incremental upgrade and they will only maintain but not grow market share.

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paulkienitz
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Re: sooner or later
In reply to Gary Martin, Sep 19, 2013

Gary Martin wrote:
The successor to the K-5 needs to have as big of a jump in image quality that the K-5 did over the K-20/K-7.

That's not gonna happen.  Improvements are getting more and more technically difficult, and I doubt a jump that big will ever happen again, unless maybe someone invents a way to have each photosite sense color without losing half of the light to dark filters.  We're getting too close to physical limits.

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solarider
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Re: What 20MP sensor outperforms the K-5/II/IIS ?
In reply to pixelsmithy, Sep 19, 2013

Boy pixelsmithy you're just regurgitating FUDD. That sucks, especially when others pick up on it and go into a slump and spread the gunky slime around.

Pentax will have likely Sony custom make them a sensor for 14 bit and have it optimized for still photo quality over video.

Whatever they come up with, it will be as good as it gets for the tech.

It might be 20 or it might be 24 MP, we'll see when it's announced.

I don't think they'll be letting anyone down.

pixelsmithy wrote:

DLBlack wrote:

Ricoh rep was in the local camera store. He was excited about the new high-end aps-c camera that is going to be announced in early Oct.

If the OP's rumor is true and it is a 20MP sensor, then who did Pentax go with? Sony (SLT 58) or back to Samsung (NX200/300)? (Canon's sensor is even worse than those two). It looks to me like there is going to be a net LOSS of Dynamic Range to go with the gain in megapixels. Even factoring in that the cameras currently out there using the Sony/Samsung sensors are only 12-bit and the Pentax will presumably be 14-bit, I'm guessing that the Dynamic Range will go backwards 1/2EV.

Frankly, the Dynamic Range is more important to me.

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miles green
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Re: Pentax K3 rumor from the plant... shhh...
In reply to Roland Karlsson, Sep 19, 2013

I hope you're right! 

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Miles Green
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miles green
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Re: Ricoh super-resolution?
In reply to Roland Karlsson, Sep 19, 2013

that's what i thought....

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Roland Karlsson
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Re: sooner or later
In reply to paulkienitz, Sep 19, 2013

paulkienitz wrote:

That's not gonna happen. Improvements are getting more and more technically difficult, and I doubt a jump that big will ever happen again, unless maybe someone invents a way to have each photosite sense color without losing half of the light to dark filters. We're getting too close to physical limits.

There are still some things to do.

  1. You could collect all visible photons at each site. Thus you would avoid noise and also have a better sampling, a la Foveon. NOTE - Foveon do not collect RGB and it has a very bad red layer. A real RGB camera would be much better.
  2. You could have a much greater bucket depth, probably then simulated with some clever means. This would increase the DR manifold. So, maybe 24 or 32 stops? This is not only a gimmick. It would improve clipping and also would give you the possibility for long exposures, i.e. at very low ISO.
  3. Four layers, one of them IR. Fun!
  4. More pixels. A 100 MP APS-C sensor will force the lensmakers to lift themselves in the hair to make extra ordinary lenses. The oversampling will also allow for software based filtering, like the filtering in audio equipment, which might result i much smoother images without noise reduction artefacts. It will also mean you can use digital zoom.
  5. Seven layers! Ehhhh ... why not? You can do very strange color manipulations with all that input.
  6. Extremely long exposures. Lets say that the sensor can stay black even if it is exposing for hours in the dark. Just imagine what you can do.

Then we shall not forget that there are other things than the sensor

  1. Rock stable shake reduction. Current improves 2 stops or so and probably never can give the same steadiness as a heavy tripod. But - if it could. Really rock stable SR.
  2. Automatic DOF stacking. Lets say that the sensor can detect sharpness at pixel level. Lets say that it do a quick scan with the focussing and choose the sharpest pixel during that scan.
  3. Sensor based SR. Lets say that you can pan a car, and that the sensor can measure and keep that car razor sharp during panning.
  4. Extreme anti glare LCD that works just fine even in bright sunlight.
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Jim in Hudson
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Re: sooner or later
In reply to Roland Karlsson, Sep 19, 2013

This idea will certainly reveal how little I know about light and imaging but here it goes (and at risk of wrong forum):

What if pixel density becomes so high that it's feasible to use a six-color filter... the three primary colors plus the three secondaries?  I imagine color accuracy would have to be noticeably improved.

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klavrack
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Re: sooner or later
In reply to Gary Martin, Sep 19, 2013

Gary Martin wrote:

Unless it's a *substantial* upgrade, I would rather it come later. Pentax/Ricoh needs to make a strong case for APS-C in the next generation, with the latest Micro4/3 sensors getting closer to the last generation of APS-C imagers. The successor to the K-5 needs to have as big of a jump in image quality that the K-5 did over the K-20/K-7. The Nikon D7100 wasn't a big enough jump, IMO; I hope Pentax can top them. And if they do, they will sell lots of cameras. If they don't, then it will be just another incremental upgrade and they will only maintain but not grow market share.

Their target needs to be the rumored D400 and D610.  Make buyers choose between the sensor advantages of a D610 and the size/performance speed of a top-tier APS-C.

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paulkienitz
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Re: sooner or later
In reply to Jim in Hudson, Sep 19, 2013

Jim in Hudson wrote:

This idea will certainly reveal how little I know about light and imaging but here it goes (and at risk of wrong forum):

What if pixel density becomes so high that it's feasible to use a six-color filter... the three primary colors plus the three secondaries? I imagine color accuracy would have to be noticeably improved.

Six colors won't really help if it's still based on the trichromatic color model.

What I hope becomes feasible someday is if each photosite can not only count photons, but sort them by energy, so the output from each site is a spectral histogram.  Then we could not only have color without a bayer array, we could have color more accurate than that of the human eye.  There's evidence (controversial) that the usual trichromatic model is only adequate for the majority, and some people are able to distinguish shades that the model cannot.  Even without that, current camera sensors make all kinds of small color errors -- deep violet turns into pure blue, and red+green blends often come out unbalanced, making people look like they're under fluorescent light when they're not.  These problems are inherent to trichromatic reproduction.  A spectral photosite would eliminate these problems and all the other kinds of metamerism that throw off color reproduction.

But that's currently a complete pipe dream... it might be achieved someday, but I bet it'll take years and years.  In the meantime, progress on improved sensors is going to be a lot more gradual and incremental than what it used to be.

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dnaseigel
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Re: sooner or later
In reply to klavrack, Sep 19, 2013

klavrack wrote:

Gary Martin wrote:

Unless it's a *substantial* upgrade, I would rather it come later. Pentax/Ricoh needs to make a strong case for APS-C in the next generation, with the latest Micro4/3 sensors getting closer to the last generation of APS-C imagers. The successor to the K-5 needs to have as big of a jump in image quality that the K-5 did over the K-20/K-7. The Nikon D7100 wasn't a big enough jump, IMO; I hope Pentax can top them. And if they do, they will sell lots of cameras. If they don't, then it will be just another incremental upgrade and they will only maintain but not grow market share.

Their target needs to be the rumored D400 and D610. Make buyers choose between the sensor advantages of a D610 and the size/performance speed of a top-tier APS-C.

And what if the D610 doesn't offer any sensor advantage?  Then the only compelling argument for Nikon will be 75 gajillion lenses Nikon has produced, the dearth of camera stores who would even think to mention a Pentax camera and the reality that we'll all do what Ashton Kutcher  does.

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Roland Karlsson
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Re: sooner or later
In reply to paulkienitz, Sep 19, 2013

paulkienitz wrote:

Jim in Hudson wrote:

This idea will certainly reveal how little I know about light and imaging but here it goes (and at risk of wrong forum):

What if pixel density becomes so high that it's feasible to use a six-color filter... the three primary colors plus the three secondaries? I imagine color accuracy would have to be noticeably improved.

Six colors won't really help if it's still based on the trichromatic color model.

Thats correct. You do not gain anything to have both RGB and CMY, they are just linear combinations of each other.

What I hope becomes feasible someday is if each photosite can not only count photons, but sort them by energy, so the output from each site is a spectral histogram. Then we could not only have color without a bayer array, we could have color more accurate than that of the human eye. There's evidence (controversial) that the usual trichromatic model is only adequate for the majority, and some people are able to distinguish shades that the model cannot. Even without that, current camera sensors make all kinds of small color errors -- deep violet turns into pure blue, and red+green blends often come out unbalanced, making people look like they're under fluorescent light when they're not. These problems are inherent to trichromatic reproduction. A spectral photosite would eliminate these problems and all the other kinds of metamerism that throw off color reproduction.

I would really like that.

But that's currently a complete pipe dream... it might be achieved someday, but I bet it'll take years and years. In the meantime, progress on improved sensors is going to be a lot more gradual and incremental than what it used to be.

I don't know about that. If someone finds how to make a real RGB sensor that collect (nearly) all photons and this in the same location for all three colors, that will be a quite huge step. Also if you remove the annoying highlight clipping by being able to collect some more photons in the bucket would greatly improve things.

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DLBlack
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Re: Pentax K3 rumor from the plant... shhh...
In reply to Cane, Sep 19, 2013

No beer from the drinking fountains.  Just Murphy Camera in Louisville, Kentucky.  For the past 6 months or so the Rep has been coming by every few months.  At one time he had Pentax on his bussiness card.  Now it has Ricoh on it.  Still it seems Pentax under Ricoh is getting the Reps out to local camera stores better than Pentax under Hoya.

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DLBlack
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Re: sooner or later
In reply to Gary Martin, Sep 19, 2013

Gary Martin wrote:

janneman02 wrote:

One of the rumored K-3 announcements will actually happen.

Dont knwo about secs though, just that it will, as usual, be called too little too late and the end of Pentax.

Unless it's a *substantial* upgrade, I would rather it come later. Pentax/Ricoh needs to make a strong case for APS-C in the next generation, with the latest Micro4/3 sensors getting closer to the last generation of APS-C imagers. The successor to the K-5 needs to have as big of a jump in image quality that the K-5 did over the K-20/K-7. The Nikon D7100 wasn't a big enough jump, IMO; I hope Pentax can top them. And if they do, they will sell lots of cameras. If they don't, then it will be just another incremental upgrade and they will only maintain but not grow market share.

A"little bird" said that the upcoming dslr will be a very big and significant upgrade over the K5ii and will be the best aps-c camera in the market.  The "little bird" was singing a happy song.

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janneman02
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Re: sooner or later
In reply to Gary Martin, Sep 19, 2013

Gary Martin wrote:Pentax/Ricoh needs to make a strong case for APS-C in the next generation, with the latest Micro4/3 sensors getting closer to the last generation of APS-C imagers.

Interesting idea, if the lastest M4/3 get close to the APS-C, the upcoming  APS-c can very well be closer to FF than many would have thought possible,  probably with exception form the latest FF cameras and the narrow DOF, but that might very well be handled with a software solution.

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jay_akita
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Re: Pentax K3 rumor from the plant... shhh...
In reply to britcam, Sep 20, 2013

britcam wrote:

jay_akita wrote:

Simon Devlin wrote:

K_Photo_Teach wrote:

Richard the picture man wrote:

That`s fine, please post a picture or two showing us how your images are losing out without more megapixels.

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Regards - Richard
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N.B. All my Images, even the bad ones, are Protected by Copyright

That kind of a question implies that photography can`t benefit from more megapixels.

Do you really believe this?

Some people forget or don't know that if you up the megapixels you also need to up the IQ of your lenses to justify them!

Hence why Nikon have a list of very expensive top end lenses recommended for use with their D800

Just sell the car and buy a 645D and be happy ever after!

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Simon
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Don't forget the pixel pitch on the K5 is ~equivalent to the D800. Yes you need a full frame lens that's good to the corners but Nikon now has a nice selection of affordable lenses (sometimes cheaper & better featured than Pentax) jthat work great with the D800. I switched from the K5 to the D800 (after shooting with K100D, K20D, K7 & K5) and for $200 you can get a great 50mm F1.8 with a lens hood and full time manual focus over-ride! In fact a big part of the reason I switched is because Pentax's pricing strategy had become so obscene (and aggravating to someone like me watching my investment yo-yo in value constantly) that Nikon looked like a bargain and allowed me to cover my needs with far fewer lenses than I had for Pentax.

I have the 70-200 F4 (used to own the 60-250 DA* and 50-135DA*) and it is the most amazing lens I've ever had my hands on. Being able to easily crop to 400mm equiv. with 9MP of resolution remaining is very liberating. I can walk around with the 24-120 F4 and cover a huge range with ~F2.8 APS-C depth of field (lens is also great, extremely resistant to flare and sharp). I got it for ~ the same price new as Pentax's 16-50!!! Throw in an amazing Yungnuo flash with great build quality for $200(!!!) that supports full wireless slave control/i-TTL/remote flash adjustment via camera body with accurate exposure and lots of power and I consider the D800 a bargain compared to my previous Pentax setup (also picked up Yungnuo wireless RF flash triggers with full i-TTL for $100!- all less than the price of Pentax's cheapest flash that has much to be desired). My wife thinks I use the term "bargain" a little loosely though

For the first time in a long, long time my LBA (and camera upgrade addiction) is well under control because I can finally "have it all" - great optical quality, extremely fast AF with great tracking options, and shallow depth of field in one lens.

It's a shame because the K5 really is a phenomenal camera but I just feel Pentax/Ricoh is continually dropping the ball and almost deliberately sabotaging their most loyal customers...

You say "affordable Nikon lenses", but assuming that you mean the 70-200 f2.8 (not f4), then that lens plus the 24-120 & the D800 come an an eye-watering £4372 at UK prices. Then you will need to add something at the wide angle end, so you need to add something like the 16-35 or the 14-24 into the mix for your "bargain" price ...

The Pentax weakness in this comparison is the absence of a lens with a focal range similar to the 24-120. But even if we substitute the 16-50 to the K5II, and add the 60-250, , the total comes to £2534, with no real gap, so roughly £2k cheaper than the Nikon kit.

"I consider the D800 a bargain compared to my previous Pentax setup"

I don't think it's surprising that you are pleased with your D800 kit, but is it really a "bargain" at those prices?

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britcam - Rich S

I was talking about the 70-200 F4...I looked seriously at Nikon before selling my K7 and buying a K5 but at that time it was going to cost a small fortune to get what I wanted in Nikon glass.  Fast forward a couple of years and 4 great, newly released, affordable lenses and I bought the following (USD - sorry  don't know anything about UK prices???):

50 F1.8 for ~$180 (sale)

85 F1.8 for $400 (sale) - amazing lens and way faster AF than my DA*55 (which I loved but for the AF)

24-120 F4 for $1000 (sale) - tried several 24-70 F2.8 lenses and was surprised at how well this lens compares.  Also has incredible flare resistance, I've shot straight into the late afternoon sun with it (I've owned the DA 15mm as well).  Incredibly versitale, my favourite walk around lens ever.  Like having a APS-C 16-80 F2.8 lens.

70-200 F4 - ~1300 - Anybody who photographs toddlers or sports owes it to themselves to throw this thing on a D800 with AF-C or 3D AF and hold down focus with stabilization on while zooming in and out.  This is the lens that sold me on a high resolution body that I can easily crop to 400mm equivalence.  It's like every lens I use has a variable tele-converter built in.

D800 - refurbed with 90 Day Nikon warranty and 1 year Adorama VIP warranty for under $2400USD.  When I say "bargain" it's in part because I no longer feel compelled to monitor camera forums year-round for any rumors of an incremental upgrade that will cost me over $1000 but still not spin my SDM motors any faster, improve C-AF, or add even trivial improvements to the video features.

Previously I had over 10 Pentax lenses, some for convenience and weather-sealing (DA*50-135, DA*60-250) but they had slow AF, so I had to have some that were lighter with faster screw-drive AF (ie DA 35 F2.4, Tamron 17--50 F2.8 etc), and some for shallow depth of field portraiture (ie DA*55, Rokinon 85mm F1.4 etc) - but these were typically so slow AF-wise I hardly ever had the patience to use them with the kids.  I now have my bases pretty well covered in 4 lenses with 5 year warranties, and stable market prices so all said it worked out to be a "bargain" for me.

That said, if I didn't have young kids that make AF and video features very important to me, and still mainly shot landscapes I suspect I'd still be shooting fairly contently with my K5.  But the lens price yo-yo game would still be getting under my skin...

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paulkienitz
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Re: sooner or later
In reply to DLBlack, Sep 20, 2013

DLBlack wrote:

A"little bird" said that the upcoming dslr will be a very big and significant upgrade over the K5ii and will be the best aps-c camera in the market. The "little bird" was singing a happy song.

That actually would not be surprising.  C and N appear to be shying away from making any more crop-sensor cameras above the amateur-enthusiast level, and this leaves an opening for Pentax to make a camera that's clearly and blatantly superior within the crop-sensor niche.  This may be an opening for setting up how they can survive as a crop-sensor company in a full-frame future: by emphasizing that C and N now see crop sensor bodies outside the bottom tier solely as bait to suck you towards their full frame systems, and if you actually want a crop sensor, Pentax is the best system.  The APS DSLR will inevitably end up as a niche product, but Pentax has a chance to end up on top of that niche, and it's clear that for them to have a strong future, they have to be seen as taking the format more seriously than C and N do, and so that's exactly where I expect them to aim.

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johnami
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Re: sooner or later
In reply to janneman02, Sep 20, 2013

Funny how we like to drool about things we know nothing about.  Yep we know near to nothing about the next product launch from RiPentax....................But speculation!!  What fun we have reading the comments of others just because 'an interior voice' gives out some exterior speculation?  Yes more of that stuff.

I sometimes wonder if 'what is newer, more recent is always better?' We know what we have K5* and we complain about this or that or we compare to this or that, (which is something I will really never understand because,  if the grass is greener on the otherside, you move!  Or at least you do eventually, well I would.

I remember in the good old days of mechanical photo boxes MX/ LX stuff, I used to think, 'well if my little button battery dies on me, I will still be able to use my camera simply by using a 125 shutter speed and F 5.6 aperture  and with a bit of chance my pictures will come out'  But I had to buy a film, load it, a delicate procedure, and then send the 36 frames off to a lab to finally see the pictures some time later..................................yes, the good old days.........??

Anyway if a K* is to see the light of day it will probably be an improved K5* or a total revolution. But the problem with improvements is that they will never satisfy everybody completely and as for a revolution, well that can also occur if you change the famous K mount imo but then we will all be complaining..................won't we!

Whoops more speculation.

Cheese

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janneman02
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speclation
In reply to johnami, Sep 20, 2013

johnami wrote:

Funny how we like to drool about things we know nothing about. Yep we know near to nothing about the next product launch from RiPentax....................But speculation!!

With all these speculations one thing is certain, whatever comes will fuel more specuation.

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Re: speclation
In reply to janneman02, Sep 20, 2013

janneman02 wrote:

johnami wrote:

Funny how we like to drool about things we know nothing about. Yep we know near to nothing about the next product launch from RiPentax....................But speculation!!

With all these speculations one thing is certain, whatever comes will fuel more specuation.

Time will tell, will have to wait and see.

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Alan.
It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
Mark Twain

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Roland Karlsson
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Re: sooner or later
In reply to DLBlack, Sep 20, 2013

DLBlack wrote:

A"little bird" said that the upcoming dslr will be a very big and significant upgrade over the K5ii and will be the best aps-c camera in the market. The "little bird" was singing a happy song.

I have absolutely no need of a "very big" camera. The competition makes their cameras smaller.

Very big cameras are only needed for super teles.

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