X-A1 = X100 non trans with lenses in a small body

Started 11 months ago | Discussions
Eddaweaver
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Re: X-A1 = X100 non trans with lenses in a small body
In reply to flysurfer, 11 months ago

flysurfer wrote:

It's not really a secret that Fuji is using sensors from Sony (X100, X100S, X-Pro1, X-E1, X-M1, X-A1) and Toshiba (X10, X20, XF1, X-S1) for their X series offerings. The Toshiba sensor is a Fujifilm design, though, but Fujifilm eventually sold the sensor factory to Toshiba.

That would explain why Fuji shows more relative competency at colour management with the 2/3" sensor cameras than their APS-C cameras. We can hope they've improved the JPEG engine in the production X-A1.

As you may have heard, they are now teaming up with Panasonic to bring organic sensors to market. I don't expect to see that sensor in a camera before 2015, though.

I wouldn't expect too much. Many announcements are made but few ever materialise into anything.

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whtchocla7e
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Re: X-A1 = X100 non trans with lenses in a small body
In reply to photo perzon, 11 months ago

photo perzon wrote:

Half of people who have an X100 are afraid of the X-trans of the X100S. The X-A1 is a small portable m4/3 sized camera that effectively gives a X100 lens options.

Please. The X-A1 is a toy, nowhere near comparable to the X100. What a bad comparison...

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boinkphoto
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I'd really like to know what sensor this is...
In reply to photo perzon, 11 months ago

I think DPReview downplays it a little too much:

"The X-A1 shares most of its features and handling with the X-Trans-based X-M1, for which we've just published our in-depth review."

Yeah, same body, but what the heeee-eck is this new sensor? I agree with others it can't be generically the same as the X100 as it's 16mp so...

Really interested to see images out of it. Might be my second X-series body (though really I want an EV at least)...

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boinkphoto
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Re: I'd really like to know what sensor this is...
In reply to boinkphoto, 11 months ago
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boinkphoto
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Re: I'd really like to know what sensor this is...
In reply to boinkphoto, 11 months ago

Interesting, not X-Trans they say, but zoomed in folliage is kind of odd (see down by edge of lake):

http://www.fujifilm.com/products/digital_cameras/x/fujifilm_x_a1/sample_images/img/index/ff_x_a1_003.JPG

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JackM
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Umm, no.
In reply to photo perzon, 11 months ago

The body has no shutter speed dial or OVF.  No thanks, and not comparable to the X100 at all.

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xasthur
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Re: X-A1 = X100 non trans with lenses in a small body
In reply to photo perzon, 11 months ago

Can't decide on which camera is best bang for the buck for $600. Torn between sony Nex 5R, sony rx100 or this fuji. In terms of PQ which do you recommend.?

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Eddaweaver
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Re: X-A1 = X100 non trans with lenses in a small body
In reply to xasthur, 11 months ago

xasthur wrote:

Can't decide on which camera is best bang for the buck for $600. Torn between sony Nex 5R, sony rx100 or this fuji. In terms of PQ which do you recommend.?

The 5R comes with either the 16-50mm collapsible lens or the 18-55mm lens. The collapsible lens is much smaller (more portable) but has lower optical quality. The Fuji 16-50mm lens should be better quality than the Sony lenses but the difference compared with the 18-55mm shouldn't be enough to worry about. The 5R with 16-50mm lens may only be available via parallel importers such as the third parties on amazon.com.

If you get a Nex the Sigma DN 30mm lens is a good purchase. It is very high quality and some people have got one for as low as US$99.

The RX100 is something you'd get if you want maximum portability.

We don't know yet what the image quality will be like on the production X-A1. It will depend on how much work Fuji does on the firmware. The samples on their website are disappointing but they would be from a pre-production camera and Fuji's marketing department has a long history of posting terrible samples on their website.

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LaFonte
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Re: X-A1 = X100 non trans with lenses in a small body
In reply to Ed B, 11 months ago

Ed B wrote:

I agree that the Bayer sensor in the entry level Fuji is probably a Sony sensor but that has nothing to do with the X-Trans sensors.

Two completely different technologies.

And I hate to sound completely ignorant but who is Rico P? Does he work for Fuji?

I've only been using an X-E1 since they were introduced so maybe I'm just too new to the Fuji X cameras to know who the technical experts are.

Fuji can currently use either Toshiba made sensors or Sony made sensors. The toshiba made sensors are in a way "fuji" as they are made in the plant that fuji previously owned.

This is absolutely nothing strange, disassemble any japanese camera and you will see that most of the components are made by other japanese companies. There is also fujitsu, which is a siemens that makes lot of the components. The sensor manufacturing for consumer APS-C digital photo imaging is now centered mostly in 3 major companies.

There are many other companies making sensors for phones or industry or other applications, but in digital cameras it is very centric to few majors.

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LaFonte
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POINTLESS
In reply to Randy Benter, 11 months ago

Randy Benter wrote:

They are not two completely different technologies; they use the exact same sensor technology. They are completely different CFAs. I think you would understand this issue better if you researched the difference between a CFA and a sensor. There is no such thing as an X-Trans sensor (misnomer), there is an X-Trans CFA.

Everyone has their opinion and everyone seems to be sure their opinion is correct.

This is not a matter of opinion; it is a matter of fact. Either Fuji fabs the sensor in X-Trans cameras or they outsource it. Some people in this thread are just guessing (incorrectly), some are making educated guesses, and some know.

It just goes around and around and it is pointless as people imagine name fuji being some "factory".

The fujifilm holdings has many hundreds of subsidiaries and companies in its portfolio. The largest is fujifilm and xerox. One of the fujifilm subsidiaries was Photonics in Miagi that manufactured CCDs wafers used (among others) also in fuji branded cameras build by another fuji-branded subsidiary.

The fuji holdings closed down the fujifilm photonics factory (money decision) and so THERE ARE NO LONGER sensors under FUJIFILM brand. The consumer camera manufacturing subsidiaries in FUJI portfolio use sensor made in factories that are currently under Toshiba or Sony brand. This should be end of the discussion.

But see how pointless this is? Fuji is a huge conglomerate where companies are acquired and sold and they y have their own subsidiaries They even make building materials. They put a FUJI or FUJIFILM in front of the company they added to portfolio. The company still does the same thing.

It makes no difference what company holds the title to the sensor manufacturing plant, it is totally pointless, like arguing if shoelaces for Nike are made by Adidas.

What really makes the difference is how the factory that makes the cameras uses the components and arguably the XPRO and X100 showed that those people do a fantastic job.

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jfjal
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Re: X-A1 = X100 non trans with lenses in a small body
In reply to Ed B, 11 months ago

Ed B wrote:

photo perzon wrote:

Half of people who have an X100 are afraid of the X-trans of the X100S. The X-A1 is a small portable m4/3 sized camera that effectively gives a X100 lens options.

The X-A1 will simply be Fuji's new entry level camera (good idea).

It will have the Bayer sensor because these sensors are less expensive than the X-Trans sensors and it seems Fuji has done everything possible to keep the price down on this camera.

I'm sure image quality will be very good and that a lot of people will be happy with the camera.

Lot of talk about AA filter, etc. but I haven't heard whether this camera will have a AA filter or not.

I'd almost bet it does not have the filter because most manufacturers are opting to do away with the filter and not worry about moire. Most modern Bayer sensors seem to handle moire very well without the filter.

Not sure why anyone would be "afraid" of the X-Trans sensor. The only problem that Fuji has ever had with the sensor is the fact that third party raw converters hadn't been updated to play nice with it.

Besides that, Fuji's JPEG engine is so good that raw processing almost becomes an outdated and unnecessary procedure. Even (JPEG) white balance can easily be adjusted with many good post processing programs.

I'll get blasted for saying this but it wouldn't surprise me to see raw either completely go away or become the exception within the next couple of years.

Saying this you demonstrate that you do not know what raw-prossessing is about.

It is NOT about getting a "nice" photo. Well sometimes it is, and a jpeg will do, but in many cases it is about rescuing blown highlights, improving murky shadows, adjusting single colors, local adjustments etc. etc. or creating an expression different from that of the opinion of the software developer who created the jpeg-engine. In spite of what you are saying also you have far more possibilities for adjusting white balance.

A jpeg file is a compressed file, having little room for adjustments before you get unwanted effects.

You should also understand that you do not get a jpeg directly, it is an interpretation of the raw data captured by the sensor.

Learning to use a raw-developer is a natural step in progression as a photographer, just as developing darkroom skills used to be.

Naturally, my opinion isn't any more valid than anyone's opinion and I suppose if you have a calibrated eye ball you could tell the difference between a well processed raw image and a well processed JPEG but the difference is almost negligible.

I'm sure the new X-A1, with the Bayer sensor, will be rated a bit lower than a camera with the X-Trans sensor but doubt most people who buy the camera will be able to tell the difference and doubt most people will even care.

I think the camera will be a big success (just my opinion again).

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JackM
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Re: X-A1 = X100 non trans with lenses in a small body
In reply to xasthur, 11 months ago

xasthur wrote:

Can't decide on which camera is best bang for the buck for $600. Torn between sony Nex 5R, sony rx100 or this fuji. In terms of PQ which do you recommend.?

PQ differences will be small, but I think a more important distinction is the selection of lenses and the controls of the camera.  I like Fuji's lens line up A LOT better, and even with the X-A1 you'll be able to enjoy their proper aperture rings.

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Ed B
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Re: X-A1 = X100 non trans with lenses in a small body
In reply to jfjal, 11 months ago

jfjal wrote:

Ed B wrote:

photo perzon wrote:

Half of people who have an X100 are afraid of the X-trans of the X100S. The X-A1 is a small portable m4/3 sized camera that effectively gives a X100 lens options.

The X-A1 will simply be Fuji's new entry level camera (good idea).

It will have the Bayer sensor because these sensors are less expensive than the X-Trans sensors and it seems Fuji has done everything possible to keep the price down on this camera.

I'm sure image quality will be very good and that a lot of people will be happy with the camera.

Lot of talk about AA filter, etc. but I haven't heard whether this camera will have a AA filter or not.

I'd almost bet it does not have the filter because most manufacturers are opting to do away with the filter and not worry about moire. Most modern Bayer sensors seem to handle moire very well without the filter.

Not sure why anyone would be "afraid" of the X-Trans sensor. The only problem that Fuji has ever had with the sensor is the fact that third party raw converters hadn't been updated to play nice with it.

Besides that, Fuji's JPEG engine is so good that raw processing almost becomes an outdated and unnecessary procedure. Even (JPEG) white balance can easily be adjusted with many good post processing programs.

I'll get blasted for saying this but it wouldn't surprise me to see raw either completely go away or become the exception within the next couple of years.

Saying this you demonstrate that you do not know what raw-prossessing is about.

It is NOT about getting a "nice" photo. Well sometimes it is, and a jpeg will do, but in many cases it is about rescuing blown highlights, improving murky shadows, adjusting single colors, local adjustments etc. etc. or creating an expression different from that of the opinion of the software developer who created the jpeg-engine. In spite of what you are saying also you have far more possibilities for adjusting white balance.

A jpeg file is a compressed file, having little room for adjustments before you get unwanted effects.

You should also understand that you do not get a jpeg directly, it is an interpretation of the raw data captured by the sensor.

Learning to use a raw-developer is a natural step in progression as a photographer, just as developing darkroom skills used to be.

Naturally, my opinion isn't any more valid than anyone's opinion and I suppose if you have a calibrated eye ball you could tell the difference between a well processed raw image and a well processed JPEG but the difference is almost negligible.

I'm sure the new X-A1, with the Bayer sensor, will be rated a bit lower than a camera with the X-Trans sensor but doubt most people who buy the camera will be able to tell the difference and doubt most people will even care.

I think the camera will be a big success (just my opinion again).

Blah, Blah, Blah, where have I heard all that before?

Yes, I agree with much of what you said but I've been doing raw processing since its inception and all I'm saying is that in-camera processing engines and Photoshop type programs have become so good that raw is quickly becoming unnecessary and the differences between a well processed raw image and a well processed JPEG image are minor.

Granted, if you completely screw up a picture, blow the highlights, and do everything else wrong, then raw is still your best bet. However, if you know what you're doing and are an experienced photographer, raw becomes less and less a necessity.

I'm not saying raw is a crutch for incompetency but I do believe that within a couple of years it will be less relevant because JPEG engines and post processing programs will continue to advance to the point of making it redundant.

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jfjal
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Re: X-A1 = X100 non trans with lenses in a small body
In reply to Ed B, 11 months ago

Maybe,

But I think there will still be many, many cases where I will prefer a result based upon my own interpretation of preferences  instead of the ones developed by a (japanese) software developer, not only for solving problems. Jpeg is not the "truth" it is an interpretation (of the raw data) and will always be a standardized form of processing - like sending your film to a lab - Very often I want more than that. To use raw processing is partly a function of your ambition as a photographer.

But of course jpeg will be more than adequate in many situations. It will not be a case of either or - "horses for courses".

I recommend the book "The Digital Negative" by Jeff Scheve.

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nikoj
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Re: X-A1 = X100 non trans with lenses in a small body - No
In reply to photo perzon, 11 months ago

No, the xa-1

  • Don't offer any view finder option
  • Don't have the silent leaf shutter
  • Can't tame the sun with high speed flash sync
  • Has completely different lens design at 23 mm in size and speed
  • Has completely different build quality
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photo perzon
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Prediction: X-A1 will be a loved classic like the X100.
In reply to boinkphoto, 11 months ago

boinkphoto wrote:

Hmmm... Samples here I guess:

http://www.fujifilm.com/products/digital_cameras/x/fujifilm_x_a1/sample_images/

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Matt Fahrner

http://boinkphoto.com

Amazing skin tones and textures.  Has the X100 "detail without texture."  Makes seniors look younger.    Has that bright airy sunny happy look to the pictures.

Welcome, X100 with lenses!

Name of the X-A1: X100 with lenses.

From "Dances with wolves"  "Stands with a fist."

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Davidgilmour
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Re: X-A1 = X100 non trans with lenses in a small body
In reply to whtchocla7e, 11 months ago

whtchocla7e wrote:

photo perzon wrote:

Half of people who have an X100 are afraid of the X-trans of the X100S. The X-A1 is a small portable m4/3 sized camera that effectively gives a X100 lens options.

Please. The X-A1 is a toy, nowhere near comparable to the X100. What a bad comparison...

why is it a toy? I think that it will beat IQ wide open with the XF-35mm compared to the wide open X-100. a couple of weeks to go.

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rxbot
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Re: X-A1 = X100 non trans with lenses in a small body - No
In reply to nikoj, 11 months ago

Costs 1/2 as much

You can add a OVF on for lens like 23mm or 18mm and someone said Olympus VF1 might work with 27mm.

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