An anti-EM1 Thread - Here's why

Started 10 months ago | Discussions
Corpy2
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An anti-EM1 Thread - Here's why
10 months ago

I love m43. I loved it with the GH2, which I thought was acceptable in terms of image quality and flexibility, but the e-m5 showed me I was wrong. The em-5, however, is acceptable.

It is very acceptable. And so, an anti-EM1 thread, for those m43'ers out there, especially who own an em-5, and are incorrectly salivating at the notices of the impending arrival and beaching of the EM1. Note, this missive is not based on personal experience. It is based on reading lots of reviews.

1) The image quality, despite a few hyperventilating reviews, is a little bit better. You hear that? A little bit better. It's not a lot better. It seems to be better anywhere from 1/3 to almost 1 stop. There. You can stop pixel peeping ISO 12,000. One splotch looks like another. The em-5 was very usable at ISO 1600. So's the EM1. So big deal. One's a little better. NOT WORTH $1400.

2) It's obvious that this camera was aimed to try to salvage 43. It's not optimized for m43. Reviews conflict on just how much better it will focus, if at all better, for older m43 lenses. If I have 6 m43 lenses (and I have more than that, actually, including the 20mm 1.7, 25mm, 45mm, 75mm, 75-300, etc.) and I think to buy a new m43 camera, I DO NOT REALLY CARE if it works nicely with older 43 lenses (and a few reviews even said that it did not focus 43 lenses as fast as that last generation of 43 (What was that? E5? I dunno--before my time). I want it to focus my older m43 lenses faster, hopefully a lot faster. I have not really seen an excess of reviews telling me this. So, WTF?

3) It's bigger. Oh yes. Oh yes it is. It's not a lot bigger (I mean, it's not a joke like the pigging out that the GH2 went when it turned into a GH3 [for what? Did the reviews say that the GH3 IQ was much better than that of the GH2? I don't remember seeing that]). First Panasonic didn't realize the value of the superb GH2 video, then they paid attention to only that in making the GH3. And the GH3 is much, much bigger than the GH2. Epic fail, folks.
Ok, back to the EM1. It's bigger. Why? If I want a camera approaching a Canon APC camera, I'll buy a Canon APC camera. Or maybe that cute little $800 Canon that takes regular Canon lenses (oh yes, I remember the 70-200f4 IS-- very few m43 lenses approach the IQ of that lens). Fail.

4) Finally, in summation, to paraphrase the Goldwater campaign (Goldwater? Who's that? Bring your grandfather some daisies and ask him) In your heart you know that this is the classical example of an in-between camera. If you own an em-5, hang on to your money for the next iteration of the *small* em6 or whatever. If you own a bunch of 43 lenses, and had given up hope, now's the time not to buy the EM1, but to unload those 43 lenses on the next sucker. This is the prototypical example of the "Pump and dump" so often done in the stock market with tiny companies.

Roger Engelken
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Re: An anti-EM1 Thread - Here's why
In reply to Corpy2, 10 months ago

4) Finally, in summation, to paraphrase the Goldwater campaign (Goldwater? Who's that? Bring your grandfather some daisies and ask him)

Republican Presidential Candidate in 1964 who ran against Lyndon Baines Johnson, and lost in one of the largest landslides in American presidential history. Barry S. Goldwater was his name.

I will leave the rest of it for others to reply to.

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OlyChamp
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Re: An anti-EM1 Thread - Here's why
In reply to Corpy2, 10 months ago

I think your summation that this is a "prototypical system" hits the nail on the head.  I don't think Olympus deliberately set about making a camera that was a bigger, better EM-5 or a replacement for the E7 but a prototype for their future development.  And one that should snare a hefty market share.  It's also a compromise.  I hear your moan about older mFT lenses but what Olympus seems to have done is admit they have very little need to develop or redevelop lenses from both systems saying what they have produced so far pretty much covers the range.  And yes there is very little in the reviews about how those older mFT lenses will function on the new body, primarily I think because noone was thinking on those lines and just wanted to match up the 4/3 lenses and see how they performed.

Maybe best you truck your mFT lenses to a show and tell and try them out and then write your review

Thane

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Martin.au
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Re: An anti-EM1 Thread - Here's why
In reply to Corpy2, 10 months ago

1) So, IQ just like the E-M5 With possibly a boost for high iso stuff? Sounds awesome.

2) I have actually been reading reviews for m4/3 focussing. Common comment is S-AF is faster than E-M5 And C-AF now works reliably. What's not to like?

3) It's about as big as a gripped E-M5.

4) err wut?

From an m4/3s users perspective, with an E-M5, the E-M1 is the pro version of that camera.

Hey OP, lay off the fud.

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ryanshoots
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Re: An anti-EM1 Thread - Here's why
In reply to Corpy2, 10 months ago

Corpy2 wrote:

Ok, back to the EM1. It's bigger. Why? If I want a camera approaching a Canon APC camera, I'll buy a Canon APC camera. Or maybe that cute little $800 Canon that takes regular Canon lenses (oh yes, I remember the 70-200f4 IS-- very few m43 lenses approach the IQ of that lens). Fail.

I think it's a bit bigger to accommodate mounting the larger 4/3 lenses. AFAIK, the body is smaller than the smallest Canon APS. Now start putting lenses on it. The problem with APS-C is the the good glass in many cases is not much smaller than simply going FF. In fact the 70-200 you mention is FF glass. Yes it works on APS-C, but it covers a FF sensor so you get to tote a bit more weight you aren't using.

The smallest Canon bodies are also the most feature crippled, unsealed, plasticky, and so on. In the APS-C line of canon the only body that compares even slightly build wise is the 7D. So take the 7D and the 70-200 and tell me how it's not much larger than the EM1 would be.

m4/3 is a sweet spot. The sensor is large enough for good IQ and yet small enough to have lenses that are significantly smaller and lighter than FF. APS-C is an odd ball. Small enough to to perform as well as FF, but with glass that's almost as heavy.

EM1 + 12-40 is 1 lb 15 oz aka 879 grams

Canon 70D + 17-55 is 3 lbs 1 oz or 1390 grams

Canon 7D + 1755 is 3 lbs 3 oz or 1465 grams

Canon 5d3 + 24-70 4 lbs 3 oz or 1900 grams

Build wise the EM1 appears as good as the 5d3 and probably better than the 7D, and 70D and streets ahead of the Rebel SL1 which weighs in at 2 lbs 14 oz or 1320 grams with the 24-70.

Yes the APS-C is very slightly better IQ than the 4/3 sensor, but the FF sensor is a lot better than both of them. To me, m43 or FF make sense. APS-C does not make sense. It's not enough better IQ wise for the weight hit. The only arguments in favor of APS-C is the glass which as m4/3 is still maturing on that front or the better AF for things really demanding it.

As a general rule of thumb from my perspective:

FF weight = 1

APS-C weight = .75(FF)

m4/3 weight =.5(FF)

APS-C IQ is probably 85% of FF and m4/3 is probably 80% of FF.

Why am I looking at the EM1?  I'm shooting full frame and looking at the EM1 because I want a lighter travel kit. I also want the look of an even bigger format than FF, so for me a nice carry-able system such as m4/3 that has decent IQ would probably meet my digital needs. The need for a larger format system will probably be met by a 4/5 view camera. For me, APS-C is no mans land.

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CharlesB58
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Re: An anti-EM1 Thread - Here's why
In reply to Corpy2, 10 months ago

You really have no idea about what is appealing in the EM1 to many of us who will buy it, do you?

Apparently some men in dark suits are waiting to force you to buy it?

No?

Then what is the purpose behind your ill-informed ramble?

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bofo777
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Re: An anti-EM1 Thread - Here's why
In reply to Corpy2, 10 months ago

Corpy2 wrote:

I love m43. I loved it with the GH2, which I thought was acceptable in terms of image quality and flexibility, but the e-m5 showed me I was wrong. The em-5, however, is acceptable.

It is very acceptable. And so, an anti-EM1 thread, for those m43'ers out there, especially who own an em-5, and are incorrectly salivating at the notices of the impending arrival and beaching of the EM1. Note, this missive is not based on personal experience. It is based on reading lots of reviews.

1) The image quality, despite a few hyperventilating reviews, is a little bit better. You hear that? A little bit better. It's not a lot better. It seems to be better anywhere from 1/3 to almost 1 stop. There. You can stop pixel peeping ISO 12,000. One splotch looks like another. The em-5 was very usable at ISO 1600. So's the EM1. So big deal. One's a little better. NOT WORTH $1400.

2) It's obvious that this camera was aimed to try to salvage 43. It's not optimized for m43. Reviews conflict on just how much better it will focus, if at all better, for older m43 lenses. If I have 6 m43 lenses (and I have more than that, actually, including the 20mm 1.7, 25mm, 45mm, 75mm, 75-300, etc.) and I think to buy a new m43 camera, I DO NOT REALLY CARE if it works nicely with older 43 lenses (and a few reviews even said that it did not focus 43 lenses as fast as that last generation of 43 (What was that? E5? I dunno--before my time). I want it to focus my older m43 lenses faster, hopefully a lot faster. I have not really seen an excess of reviews telling me this. So, WTF?

3) It's bigger. Oh yes. Oh yes it is. It's not a lot bigger (I mean, it's not a joke like the pigging out that the GH2 went when it turned into a GH3 [for what? Did the reviews say that the GH3 IQ was much better than that of the GH2? I don't remember seeing that]). First Panasonic didn't realize the value of the superb GH2 video, then they paid attention to only that in making the GH3. And the GH3 is much, much bigger than the GH2. Epic fail, folks.
Ok, back to the EM1. It's bigger. Why? If I want a camera approaching a Canon APC camera, I'll buy a Canon APC camera. Or maybe that cute little $800 Canon that takes regular Canon lenses (oh yes, I remember the 70-200f4 IS-- very few m43 lenses approach the IQ of that lens). Fail.

4) Finally, in summation, to paraphrase the Goldwater campaign (Goldwater? Who's that? Bring your grandfather some daisies and ask him) In your heart you know that this is the classical example of an in-between camera. If you own an em-5, hang on to your money for the next iteration of the *small* em6 or whatever. If you own a bunch of 43 lenses, and had given up hope, now's the time not to buy the EM1, but to unload those 43 lenses on the next sucker. This is the prototypical example of the "Pump and dump" so often done in the stock market with tiny companies.

I'm not sure why you have jumped forums to ours and are casting such a dark shadow on the new EM-1  ...Most 4/3 rd shooters still love their cameras and lenses and still take beautiful pics with them even if we cannot get noiseless at 12000 ISO or catch focus of a 270 bullet going #@%& mph.

However since there will probably be no new E7  the new EM-1 gives us a sort of a camera rebirth where we can use our 35-100, 14-35, 50-200 lenses etc ect and not feel inferior to the other manufacturers in the ability to produce picture quality equal or better than the other guys.

If 4/3ed users are to proceed to the next step in their photography journey (unless we jump ship) the EM-1 for right now is the only logical answer......John

P.S.  And if the E-5 is before your time at least you have fair communication skills being only the ripe old age of 3.........

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Darrell500
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Re: An anti-EM1 Thread - Here's why
In reply to Corpy2, 10 months ago

Corpy2 wrote:

I love m43. I loved it with the GH2, which I thought was acceptable in terms of image quality and flexibility, but the e-m5 showed me I was wrong. The em-5, however, is acceptable.

Glad to hear your happy with it.

It is very acceptable. And so, an anti-EM1 thread, for those m43'ers out there, especially who own an em-5, and are incorrectly salivating at the notices of the impending arrival and beaching of the EM1. Note, this missive is not based on personal experience. It is based on reading lots of reviews.

Well you haven't every tried 4/3rds glass have you? Check it out but you can still buy those old 4/3rds lenses new, how old is a new 4/3rds lens?

1) The image quality, despite a few hyperventilating reviews, is a little bit better. You hear that? A little bit better. It's not a lot better. It seems to be better anywhere from 1/3 to almost 1 stop. There. You can stop pixel peeping ISO 12,000. One splotch looks like another. The em-5 was very usable at ISO 1600. So's the EM1. So big deal. One's a little better. NOT WORTH $1400.

2) It's obvious that this camera was aimed to try to salvage 43. It's not optimized for m43. Reviews conflict on just how much better it will focus, if at all better, for older m43 lenses. If I have 6 m43 lenses (and I have more than that, actually, including the 20mm 1.7, 25mm, 45mm, 75mm, 75-300, etc.) and I think to buy a new m43 camera, I DO NOT REALLY CARE if it works nicely with older 43 lenses (and a few reviews even said that it did not focus 43 lenses as fast as that last generation of 43 (What was that? E5? I dunno--before my time). I want it to focus my older m43 lenses faster, hopefully a lot faster. I have not really seen an excess of reviews telling me this. So, WTF?

If 4/3rds was before your time then your about 3 years old then? E5 was released in 2010 and is still an exceptional camera in many respects.

Well you haven't every tried 4/3rds glass have you? Check it out but you can still buy those old 4/3rds lenses new, how old is a new 4/3rds lens?

For me instead of carrying a FF and EM5 I might carry an EM1 w/  micro lenses for much of what I do and have a couple of those old dinosaur f/2 zuikos for pro work, and yes it will compare pretty favorable to FF with SHG glass. Yep I said it, I'll put that old dinosaur 35-100 in front of a 4/3rds sensor and not many will see a difference if at all.

I've shot many weddings and a couple concerts with good SHG glass and one of my buddies shoots Nikon D700, if anything the E5 photos with the 14-35 and 35-100 look consistently sharper. I never seen a reason to buy FF it's that good.

Now without Olympus DSLR's in production I might end up going the Canikon route, but only because I might have trouble holding one of those little pigmy cameras.

E3) It's bigger. Oh yes. Oh yes it is. It's not a lot bigger (I mean, it's not a joke like the pigging out that the GH2 went when it turned into a GH3 [for what? Did the reviews say that the GH3 IQ was much better than that of the GH2? I don't remember seeing that]). First Panasonic didn't realize the value of the superb GH2 video, then they paid attention to only that in making the GH3. And the GH3 is much, much bigger than the GH2. Epic fail, folks.
Ok, back to the EM1. It's bigger. Why? If I want a camera approaching a Canon APC camera, I'll buy a Canon APC camera. Or maybe that cute little $800 Canon that takes regular Canon lenses (oh yes, I remember the 70-200f4 IS-- very few m43 lenses approach the IQ of that lens). Fail.

Not all of us are born with little hands or like holding our cameras with our finger tips so if it's bigger all the better, I hope it is!

4) Finally, in summation, to paraphrase the Goldwater campaign (Goldwater? Who's that? Bring your grandfather some daisies and ask him) In your heart you know that this is the classical example of an in-between camera. If you own an em-5, hang on to your money for the next iteration of the *small* em6 or whatever. If you own a bunch of 43 lenses, and had given up hope, now's the time not to buy the EM1, but to unload those 43 lenses on the next sucker. This is the prototypical example of the "Pump and dump" so often done in the stock market with tiny companies.

Classic example of Olympus trying to build a pro body that will meet the needs of all their customers.

Have A Nice Day
Darrell

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Franka T.L.
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Interesting take
In reply to Corpy2, 10 months ago

Though I would say its not the whole nor the end of the story.

I wager its a matter of perspective in term of how one use and demand from a system. What matters is 4/3 did not fulfill its original goal and never materialize as a true viable system, and M4/3 seems trying to repeat the history somewaht. Its carving a niche but that niche is fast facing a dilemma. Just as others had stated, that which APS-C DSLR do not really give the size advantage vs FF. Its now the reverse. The M4/3 do not actually give size advantage vs the APS-C or might be even FF mirrorless. ( take the NEX-7, is it really bigger than the E-M5 )

But yes, those are valid arguments. As far, and as I've read, it seems there is only marginal advance as a total platform goes between the E-M5 and E-M1, which center around the AF and compatibility with the 4/3 lens, ergonomics and some evolutionary improvement. Even Oly seems to suggest that, when I read numerous review, interview from medias regarding E-M1, Oly themselves stress much on the new imaging engine ( the chip ) on image quality improvement. They were avoiding the question of how the sensor perform even though their marketing material keep saying its TOTALLY NEW sensor . The totally new part I would not doubt, but I guess its more about the on chip PDAF and some ongoing improvement rather than for real a new sensor.

Personally I can understand your feud with the size, but o9ne the less the GH-3 or the E-M1 are not really that bulky. OR even the GX-7. What do materialize though is the issue between the 2 very different need for a system that simply need 2 different products. Both though nbeed to cater to the same highly demanding sector of the market. While the like opf GH-3 or E-M1 are needed, there is a market and a demand for something much the same but more like the GX-1 ( size and form factor ) or might be we should take NEX-6 as a cue. Whether M4/3 will provide will be the Mfr's choice.

AFAIC, the E-M1 is indeed an improvement but I do agree its more about supporting M4/3 and evolutionary than about actually fielding a next gen M4/3. For their part, I would say Nikon is doing better, along the whole lineup of theior DSLR, the Mfr almost always infuse improvement worth it into the replacements. The D800/D800E is significant advance vs the D700, the D7100 vs the D7000. I guess both of them had their value and purpose. Its just that they won't be for everyone.

The failure of 4/3 on the market had many factors; I think the Mfrs should take note. The M4/3 had made itself a place on the market, but its no longer new nor novel. So its about time Oly and Panny gorwn up and try to work it into a SYSTEM instead. Right now its far from it.

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TrapperJohn
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If you want one that bad, just buy it.
In reply to Corpy2, 10 months ago

Sounds like you're trying to talk yourself out of it with this rather ill informed rant, and not doing very well.

First off, this is not the µ43 forum, it's the Oly SLR forum.

The EM1 is about the size of the EM5 with vertical grip attached. Since the vertical grip never leaves my EM5, it's for all practical purposes, the same size. Which is smaller and quite a bit more slender than the smallest Canon DSLR.

Doesn't have better IQ than previous efforts? Put HG or SHG glass on it, it will have quite a bit better IQ.

If few µ43 lenses match the Canon 70-200 F4, none match the ZD 50-200 F2.8-3.5. I know that from personal experience.

If the EM1 was built for 4/3 owners, that's probably why Oly is also bringing out two fast and sharp zooms in native µ43 mount: 12-40 F2.8 and 40-150 F2.8.

The EM1 is an exciting new camera. Unlike most DSLR's, it has a lot more new about it than a few more MP, and a couple of new menu options, all of which you'll notice a lot less than the price you'll pay.

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ulfie
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Forum IDed.
In reply to TrapperJohn, 10 months ago

Earth to TrapperJohn.  Look up top.  It says "Micro Four Thirds Talk" forum.

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Skeeterbytes
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Re: An anti-EM1 Thread - Here's why
In reply to Corpy2, 10 months ago

Okay, that's quite a lot to unpack so I'll limit my question to, "What doesn't the E-M1 do better than every Oly camera to precede it?"

There may be some critical comparisons WRT the E-series (battery life, AF response) but in the µ4/3 realm I'm not coming up with a single reason they shouldn't be offering it.

Anyway, vote with your wallet.

[For our international friends who are wondering what the heck is a Barry Goldwater and what does he have to do with cameras, here's a quote, "When you say "radical right" today, I think of these moneymaking ventures by fellows like Pat Robertson and others who are trying to take the Republican Party away from the Republican Party, and make a religious organization out of it. If that ever happens, kiss politics goodbye." ] More on point, here's a link to his photo gallery.

http://www.barrygoldwaterphotographs.com/

For all I know, he may have been the only U.S. senator with a photographer's eye. He's probably have loved an E-M1, even if he wondered where the dark slide was.

Cheers,

Rick

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Skeeterbytes
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In reply to ulfie, 10 months ago

ulfie wrote:

Earth to TrapperJohn. Look up top. It says "Micro Four Thirds Talk" forum.

I think they moved the thread--like a catch-and-relocate Yosemite bear--from four-thirds.

Cheers,

Rick

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BigBen08
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Re: An anti-EM1 Thread - Here's why
In reply to Corpy2, 10 months ago

Corpy2 wrote:

Note, this missive is not based on personal experience. It is based on reading lots of reviews.

This is when I stopped reading.

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Darrell500
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Re: Forum IDed.
In reply to ulfie, 10 months ago

ulfie wrote:

Earth to TrapperJohn. Look up top. It says "Micro Four Thirds Talk" forum.

Um I guess the moderators were moderating again and moved this thread.

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MPA1
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Re: An anti-EM1 Thread - Here's why
In reply to Corpy2, 10 months ago

Hmm.

1) It's tiny. Try living with a couple of Nikon D3s bodies if you think this thing is big. It's so small I would not hesitate to put the grip on it out of the box and leave it there forevermore, just so I could actually get my hands on it properly. I did exactly that with my GH3.

2) There are a few things I would leave out that they have included if I was designing a 'pro' body. All that hipstergram junk of art filters etc - in the bin for a start. Design-wise, the on/off switch is not in the most sensible place. I wish the batteries were better - they are not THAT much smaller in size than Nikon EN-EL4a batteries that will power a D3s to over 3,000 shots on one battery. Why can't they get beyond pathetic numbers like 300? That right there is one of the least 'pro' things about the camera.

3) The body is weatherproof, freeze proof (although I once used my Nikon D200 in the Canadian winter at minus 46 Centigrade for 10 days with no issues despite no advertising that it was freeze proof!), has a very sane lock on the mode dial, is made of metal, has high flash sync speed, high frame rate and hopefully CAF that will at least cope with things like monks on mopeds better than my GH3 does.

For me it has many pros. I could use the 'big' lenses if I wanted to (that 300 f2.8 for example or the 150 f2 or the 7-14 f4) as well as the small lenses.

A pro grade M43 7-14 f2.8 on one body and the forthcoming 40-150 f2.8 on another would make a fabulous system for the travelling photojournalist.

No, I think this will be a hugely successful camera. You can anti it all you like but it will sell like hot cakes. Granted EM-5 owners probably have no need to rush to dump their EM-5's just to get one, but that does not detract from it's relevance at all.

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Digital Dick
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Re: An anti-EM1 Thread - Here's why
In reply to Skeeterbytes, 10 months ago

Howard Henry Baker, Jr. (born November 15, 1925) is a former Senate Majority Leader, Republican U.S. Senator from Tennessee, White House Chief of Staff, and a former United States Ambassador to Japan. He currently works as a lobbyist and adviser at Baker, Donelson, Bearman, Caldwell & Berkowitz. Also an excellent photographer.

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Skeeterbytes
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Re: An anti-EM1 Thread - Here's why
In reply to Digital Dick, 10 months ago

Now that's fun to learn. thanks!

Cheers,

Rick

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Brian Mosley
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Here's why the E-M1 matters
In reply to Corpy2, 10 months ago

Hi, thanks for sharing your perspective on m4/3rds and the E-M1.

From my perspective, as a long time Olympus enthusiast (my first digital camera was an Olympus C800 L - ask your dad what life was like when the internet was dial-up ) the E-M1 rewards my faith in keeping just about all of my 4/3rds lenses... and that's where the significant difference in IQ comes, from accessing the ZD 50-200, ZD 50 f2... and of course from Olympus going PRO with their zoom lenses for m4/3rds this is a big deal.

When I look back at the image quality we got with Olympus 4/3rds bodies using 4/3rds lenses, there's a noticeable step up in image quality despite the sensors being less capable... That's the advantage of ZD lenses -  we should notice this in the coming months from E-M1 owners toting classic Olympus designed for digital zoom lenses.

Some examples of old 4/3rds bodies using ZD lenses here :

http://www.ukphotosafari.org

Cheers

Brian

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Olympus E-M1
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Acrill
Senior MemberPosts: 1,294Gear list
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Re: Here's why the E-M1 matters
In reply to Brian Mosley, 10 months ago

Suggestion:

Try using the camera before blabbing about it on the forum.

If you aren't going to buy one, and don't have any knowledge of the product then we can safely ignore your opinion as ignorant and uninformed.

What a waste of time.

 Acrill's gear list:Acrill's gear list
Fujifilm X-T1 Fujifilm XF 35mm F1.4 R Fujifilm XC 16-50mm F3.5-5.6 OIS
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