Thom Hogan: "Get fully behind Nikon 1 or drop it."

Started 10 months ago | Discussions
Sonyshine
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Re: Real innovators don't listen to their customers!
In reply to AustinB, 10 months ago

Real innovators don't listen to their customers!

Look at Steve Jobs for example - did he listen to customers asking for the iPhone? or the iPad? or even the iPod or iTunes? No.

Because he had a vision about where technology was going.

Did Dyson ask customers if they wanted vacuum cleaners with swirl vortices ...no!

Did Henry Ford ask customers what they wanted in a Model T? Of course not!

Did Honda ask Triumph and Norton customers if they really needed a four cylinder 750 motorbike? Nah!

Great inventions never come out of customer clinics - committees only make camels.

What camera manufacturers ( Canon, Nikon etc ) are afraid to do is embrace the digital age. They are very conservative and their customer base is conservative. They are scared of cannibalising sales by being innovative. What they fail to realise is if they don't seize the opportunity their competitors surely will!

Electronics manufacturers on the other hand like Sony and Samsung are happy to innovate and test new ideas and products - what they have lacked so far is the razor sharp vision to push their ideas and products so far ahead of the competition that they annihilate them - it still might happen....after all Apple is arguably the biggest camera brand in the world....

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ragspix
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Re: Real innovators don't listen to their customers!
In reply to Sonyshine, 10 months ago

Sonyshine wrote:

Real innovators don't listen to their customers!

Look at Steve Jobs for example - did he listen to customers asking for the iPhone? or the iPad? or even the iPod or iTunes? No.

Because he had a vision about where technology was going.

Did Dyson ask customers if they wanted vacuum cleaners with swirl vortices ...no!

Did Henry Ford ask customers what they wanted in a Model T? Of course not!

Did Honda ask Triumph and Norton customers if they really needed a four cylinder 750 motorbike? Nah!

Great inventions never come out of customer clinics - committees only make camels.

What camera manufacturers ( Canon, Nikon etc ) are afraid to do is embrace the digital age. They are very conservative and their customer base is conservative. They are scared of cannibalising sales by being innovative. What they fail to realise is if they don't seize the opportunity their competitors surely will!

Electronics manufacturers on the other hand like Sony and Samsung are happy to innovate and test new ideas and products - what they have lacked so far is the razor sharp vision to push their ideas and products so far ahead of the competition that they annihilate them - it still might happen....after all Apple is arguably the biggest camera brand in the world....

And when they did listen, look what happened to the "New" coke... 

Rags

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anthony mazzeri
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Re: Real innovators don't listen to their customers!
In reply to ragspix, 10 months ago

ragspix wrote:

Sonyshine wrote:

Real innovators don't listen to their customers!

Look at Steve Jobs for example - did he listen to customers asking for the iPhone? or the iPad? or even the iPod or iTunes? No.

Because he had a vision about where technology was going.

Did Dyson ask customers if they wanted vacuum cleaners with swirl vortices ...no!

Did Henry Ford ask customers what they wanted in a Model T? Of course not!

Did Honda ask Triumph and Norton customers if they really needed a four cylinder 750 motorbike? Nah!

Great inventions never come out of customer clinics - committees only make camels.

What camera manufacturers ( Canon, Nikon etc ) are afraid to do is embrace the digital age. They are very conservative and their customer base is conservative. They are scared of cannibalising sales by being innovative. What they fail to realise is if they don't seize the opportunity their competitors surely will!

Electronics manufacturers on the other hand like Sony and Samsung are happy to innovate and test new ideas and products - what they have lacked so far is the razor sharp vision to push their ideas and products so far ahead of the competition that they annihilate them - it still might happen....after all Apple is arguably the biggest camera brand in the world....

And when they did listen, look what happened to the "New" coke...

Rags

But that's not really listening to the customer at all, it's listening to market researchers with stats and numbers. It's listening to potential customers. Potential customers aren't customers.

Just like Nikon, Canon and Pentax have all three been listening to the needs of what they thought would be their potential customers instead of aiming their new mirrorless systems at their actual customers. The lukewarm reception to all three of their mirrorless systems has proved this wasn't the best course of action . Their actual customers for any new mirrorless system should have been their existing customers who already owned their other lenses, speedlights and heavy DSLRs. Only the FT-1 comes close to addressing this.

Anyway, Steve Jobs did indeed listen to the users when it came to the iPhone. From the outset he fiercely resisted independent apps as part of his vision, but eventually succumbed to the enormous pressure and so the App Store was born and they never looked back.

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ragspix
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Re: Real innovators don't listen to their customers!
In reply to anthony mazzeri, 10 months ago

Fair enough...

But it's a recipe... original thinking applied to current customer needs in the hope of getting new customers & sales.

Rags

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Sonyshine
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Re: Real innovators don't listen to their customers!
In reply to anthony mazzeri, 10 months ago

Their actual customers for any new mirrorless system should have been their existing customers who already owned their other lenses, speedlights and heavy DSLRs. Only the FT-1 comes close to addressing this....

Really? I strongly disagree.

I own a Nikon V1 and have never owned any Nikon cameras or lenses in my life before.

It's this conservative - "ooh we must hang onto our customers" thinking that is so crippling the established camera manufacturers.

If your product is good enough people will buy it regardless! - FujiX100, Sony Rx100 , Sony RX1, Sony NEX, Olympus OMD....all good cameras , all luring people over from other brands...not to mention countless mobile phones consigning cameras to dusty confines of a cupboard!

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antoineb
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More micro-marketing to drive traffic to this "Thom" site?!
In reply to Pangloss, 10 months ago

Pangloss wrote:

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/whither-nikon.html

OK now, I read the whole post by Thom but this single phrase summarizes what he has to say about the Nikon 1 system. And imho he is not being 100% fair in saying this, although he has some good points.

Disagree:

  • The 1" sensors in the V1 and V2 (respectively 10MP and 14MP) perform fine both in absolute terms and when compared to the competition. Yes, I know Sony's 1" sensor in the RX100 performs better at high ISO and sports 20MP, but that's about the only sensor that we can compare the Nikon 1 sensors to, and it has the best technology that Sony can offer. And probably Aptina's next generation of 1" sensors will offer comparable performance to Somy's, so where's the beef here? What Thom is not saying is that no matter what, a 1" sensor will never perform the same as an APS-C sensor. That's a reality and if I need the high ISO performance of an APS-C or FF sensor then I am not going to use a Nikon 1 camera, I am going to use a D7100 or a D600, end of story here.
  • Nikon has innovated a lot with the Nikon 1 line up. Just as a reminder, they were the first with a working, high-performance on-chip phase detection AF system. And the FT1 adapter gives us access to a whole line-up of DX and FX lenses.
  • Judging from the native lenses released since the launch of the Nikon 1 system, quantity and quality-wise, Nikon fully stands behind it.
  • The third-gen (V3, etc) Nikon 1 camera bodies should be released in time for the Xmas season, so where is the lack of commitment or innovation here?

Agree:

  • There were clearly some bad decisions made regarding the Nikon 1 camera bodies, concerning the initial price points and the crippling of the cameras in firmware, and Nikon has not listened to users regarding these two issues. And that's a pity.
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Andrew
Novice photographer

Cannot be a coincidence that this "Thom" gets a second big thread this week to draw traffic from DPR to his site?

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coolcatdaddy
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Re: Real innovators don't listen to their customers!
In reply to Sonyshine, 10 months ago

I own a Nikon V1 and have never owned any Nikon cameras or lenses in my life before.

ditto. never had any interest in the brand until i read steve huff's glowing report, followed by the christmas fire sale. have since become really sold on the system's strengths and potential.

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antoineb
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Well said - and even Apple now seems to have lost the vision
In reply to Sonyshine, 10 months ago

Sonyshine wrote:

Real innovators don't listen to their customers!

Look at Steve Jobs for example - did he listen to customers asking for the iPhone? or the iPad? or even the iPod or iTunes? No.

Because he had a vision about where technology was going.

Did Dyson ask customers if they wanted vacuum cleaners with swirl vortices ...no!

Did Henry Ford ask customers what they wanted in a Model T? Of course not!

Did Honda ask Triumph and Norton customers if they really needed a four cylinder 750 motorbike? Nah!

Great inventions never come out of customer clinics - committees only make camels.

What camera manufacturers ( Canon, Nikon etc ) are afraid to do is embrace the digital age. They are very conservative and their customer base is conservative. They are scared of cannibalising sales by being innovative. What they fail to realise is if they don't seize the opportunity their competitors surely will!

Electronics manufacturers on the other hand like Sony and Samsung are happy to innovate and test new ideas and products - what they have lacked so far is the razor sharp vision to push their ideas and products so far ahead of the competition that they annihilate them - it still might happen....after all Apple is arguably the biggest camera brand in the world....

Well said.

Electronics manufacturers have no heritage or installed base which makes them freer to experiment - not that they are always too successful at it to judge by Sony's record for example

Camera manufacturers are kind of stuck.  Their traditional customer is indeed very conservative so does NOT want too many bright truly modern and visionary ideas - but at the same time if they want to grow they ALSO would need to please the more modern crowd.  And to complicate matters further, a company like Nikon has skills mostly in optics and superior image processing and superior camera ergonomics, but not on software or wifi and so on - so what are they going to do?  Especially given that they are not such a large or rich company?

Fact is, as you point out today, that the smartphone people have become, de facto, the largest camera vendors by a large margin - though you seem to be mistaken as far as market shares go:  Samsung is far ahead of Apple on this one

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JL Salvignol
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Am I a New Nikon fanboy ?
In reply to Pangloss, 10 months ago

The Nikon V1 is my first Nikon since the F, F2 and FM3A, which are always gorgeous and fully functional. Bought the V1 € 231 with 10mm, the best buy of the decade! I added 18.5mm since. I watch the ever elusive 32mm in Amazon.Fr, and I am tempted by a second V1 - we'll see tomorrow

What I observe is that the capabilities of V1 with good primes in terms of IQ are substantially equivalent or superior to what can be obtained with the F's, the better Nikkor lenses - 28mm, 55 Micro, 105mm - the best BW films & developers or slides films available and an excellent Coolscan. What more? As for speed, flexibility, precision of focus and exposure, there is no common measure. Really.

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justmeMN
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Re: Thom who?
In reply to Photo Pete, 10 months ago

Thom makes some good points, but should get back to talking about photography and equipment, on which he is an absolute expert.

IMHO, "CEO Thom" gets a bit over overwrought sometimes.

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happypoppeye
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Re: Thom Hogan: "Get fully behind Nikon 1 or drop it."
In reply to Pangloss, 10 months ago

Pangloss wrote:

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/whither-nikon.html

OK now, I read the whole post by Thom but this single phrase summarizes what he has to say about the Nikon 1 system. And imho he is not being 100% fair in saying this, although he has some good points.

Disagree:

  • The 1" sensors in the V1 and V2 (respectively 10MP and 14MP) perform fine both in absolute terms and when compared to the competition. Yes, I know Sony's 1" sensor in the RX100 performs better at high ISO and sports 20MP, but that's about the only sensor that we can compare the Nikon 1 sensors to, and it has the best technology that Sony can offer. And probably Aptina's next generation of 1" sensors will offer comparable performance to Somy's, so where's the beef here? What Thom is not saying is that no matter what, a 1" sensor will never perform the same as an APS-C sensor. That's a reality and if I need the high ISO performance of an APS-C or FF sensor then I am not going to use a Nikon 1 camera, I am going to use a D7100 or a D600, end of story here.
  • Nikon has innovated a lot with the Nikon 1 line up. Just as a reminder, they were the first with a working, high-performance on-chip phase detection AF system. And the FT1 adapter gives us access to a whole line-up of DX and FX lenses.
  • Judging from the native lenses released since the launch of the Nikon 1 system, quantity and quality-wise, Nikon fully stands behind it.
  • The third-gen (V3, etc) Nikon 1 camera bodies should be released in time for the Xmas season, so where is the lack of commitment or innovation here?

Agree:

  • There were clearly some bad decisions made regarding the Nikon 1 camera bodies, concerning the initial price points and the crippling of the cameras in firmware, and Nikon has not listened to users regarding these two issues. And that's a pity.
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Andrew
Novice photographer

He is right on the title statement. Nikon shot itself in the toe with the comments a few weeks back that they were scaling back on R&D ...now with the 32 1.2 being special order (at B&H - not sure if this is a NIkon thing or B&H) ...I mean, they are telling their customers they aren't really too sure about the system. Talk about lack of confidence.

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