Thom Hogan: "Get fully behind Nikon 1 or drop it."

Started Sep 16, 2013 | Discussions
anthony mazzeri
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Re: Thom Hogan: "Get fully behind Nikon 1 or drop it."
In reply to coolcatdaddy, Sep 17, 2013

coolcatdaddy wrote:

Re: p7700-N1 mashup.

i like this. also the p7800 managed to keep the same form factor and have a built-in viewfinder as well.

Alas, they sacrificed the quick menu dial to fit the EVF on the left instead of under the hotshoe. I like the mashup concept idea better of keeping the quick dial and having the EVF under the hotshoe instead like with the V2.

Moving the P7xxx flash into the central hump too can actually result in a slimmer main body like they've actually done on the V2 .

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Photo Pete
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Re: Thom who?
In reply to The Davinator, Sep 17, 2013

Jimmy jang Boo wrote:

darkref wrote:

Forums are for discussion, for making arguments to aid that discussion, and not starting this discussion by quoting some photographer (which actually is pointless) who makes a completely ridiculous, exagerated attack on a £multi-million company who are actually making a profit.

darkref is a dpr moderator. He made the above pertinent statement in reference to Thom in this thread.

See... http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52164561

I agree completely.

Thom makes some good points, but should get back to talking about photography and equipment, on which he is an absolute expert.

His market assessments always smack of someone who thinks they should be more important than they are with the major camera manufacturers. I believe Thom presented some ideas to Nikon a few years back, but has lost his 'special relationship' with them since. Thom also used to post on DPReview regularly but opted out after a suspected disagreement.

It is a shame his ego seems to get in the way occasionally... he is one of the most imformative reviewers out there and a true expert.
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SunnyFlorida
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Re: Thom who?
In reply to Photo Pete, Sep 17, 2013

Photo Pete wrote

Thom makes some good points, but should get back to talking about photography and equipment, on which he is an absolute expert.

His market assessments always smack of someone who thinks they should be more important than they are with the major camera manufacturers.

The same can be said of "Major Camera Manufacturers" who think they know better than their consumers and therefore they don't listen to them. Thom has his pulse on consumers, he directly answers e-mails from readers, he runs several training seminars and workshops per year, show me one Nikon executive who does the same with his customers? Advantage Thom.

I believe Thom presented some ideas to Nikon a few years back, but has lost his 'special relationship' with them since. Thom also used to post on DPReview regularly but opted out after a suspected disagreement.

That's so unusual, there's usually no disagreements in DPreview, members can express their opinions freely without fear of being attacked, called a troll or secret undercover communist infiltrator double agent

It is a shame his ego seems to get in the way occasionally... he is one of the most imformative reviewers out there and a true expert.
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D200_4me
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The price is baffling
In reply to Pangloss, Sep 17, 2013

I mean, compared to the competition.  It's as if they WANT to see the Nikon 1 system die.  I'm sure they don't, but the price of the V2 for example is really confusing compared to the new mirrorless systems out there with better image quality.  I have the V2 and I had the V1 in the past.   I do like the system, but like has been mentioned many times already on this forum, the prices don't make any sense.  If they need to recover their development expenses, I'm not sure what to say, but just look at the competition.   If Nikon's prices are so high because of a need to recover costs from the building of a new factory and the R&D associated with the 1 system, maybe they should find another way of doing it instead of instantly driving away potential buyers once they see the price tag.  Honestly, m4/3 has better image quality, very fast AF and less expensive bodies these days compared to the V2, for example.   I'm not bashing the V2 because I own one.  I'm just stating the obvious/truth.  I can't believe Nikon doesn't understand this and do something about the pricing.   The excellent Olympus EM5 is only $200 more with the 14-42 lens.  Really Nikon....wake up please

Oh and I do love my D600 also.  I like Nikon, but they need to get a clue when it comes to the Nikon 1 pricing.

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The Davinator
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Re: Thom who?
In reply to SunnyFlorida, Sep 17, 2013

SunnyFlorida wrote:

Photo Pete wrote

Thom makes some good points, but should get back to talking about photography and equipment, on which he is an absolute expert.

His market assessments always smack of someone who thinks they should be more important than they are with the major camera manufacturers.

The same can be said of "Major Camera Manufacturers" who think they know better than their consumers and therefore they don't listen to them. Thom has his pulse on consumers, he directly answers e-mails from readers, he runs several training seminars and workshops per year, show me one Nikon executive who does the same with his customers? Advantage Thom.

Are you comparing a guy who runs a website to an executive from a company?  Do you actually think their roles are the same?  Thom can blather on all he likes.....companies do listen to their customers....not Thom.

I believe Thom presented some ideas to Nikon a few years back, but has lost his 'special relationship' with them since. Thom also used to post on DPReview regularly but opted out after a suspected disagreement.

That's so unusual, there's usually no disagreements in DPreview, members can express their opinions freely without fear of being attacked, called a troll or secret undercover communist infiltrator double agent

It is a shame his ego seems to get in the way occasionally... he is one of the most imformative reviewers out there and a true expert.
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SunnyFlorida
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Re: Thom who?
In reply to The Davinator, Sep 17, 2013

Dave Luttmann wrote:

SunnyFlorida wrote:

Photo Pete wrote

Thom makes some good points, but should get back to talking about photography and equipment, on which he is an absolute expert.

His market assessments always smack of someone who thinks they should be more important than they are with the major camera manufacturers.

The same can be said of "Major Camera Manufacturers" who think they know better than their consumers and therefore they don't listen to them. Thom has his pulse on consumers, he directly answers e-mails from readers, he runs several training seminars and workshops per year, show me one Nikon executive who does the same with his customers? Advantage Thom.

Are you comparing a guy who runs a website to an executive from a company?

Yes, and he is not just 'A Guy", he's a photographer with over two decades of experience and he has tested and used just about every piece of Nikon gear that has been created in the past 20-years; I dare you to find one Nikon executive who has done the same.

Do you actually think their roles are the same?

No, Nikon executive role is to make money for the company by any means necessary, Thoms role is to express his honest opinion whether you like it or  not

Thom can blather on all he likes.....companies do listen to their customers....not Thom.

Really? Take the pepsi challenge, send an e-mail to Thom and then send an E-Mail to Tokyo attn VP of product development, let's see who answers your e-mail first.

Photo Pete

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Jim F
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Sorry Dave, Sunny's right ...
In reply to SunnyFlorida, Sep 17, 2013

SunnyFlorida wrote:

Dave Luttmann wrote: Thom can blather on all he likes.....companies do listen to their customers....not Thom.

Really? Take the pepsi challenge, send an e-mail to Thom and then send an E-Mail to Tokyo attn VP of product development, let's see who answers your e-mail first.

Dave: These camera customers DO NOT listen to their customers, otherwise we'd not be complaining 'ad nauseam' about the dumb things they do and don't do. Just think, if they did listen to their customers; there would be no DPReview forum on which to post all of these silly arguments and lousy pictures of house cats. So, I agree 100% with Sunny on this one.

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Photo Pete
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Re: The price is baffling
In reply to D200_4me, Sep 17, 2013

I mean, compared to the competition.  It's as if they WANT to see the Nikon 1 system die.  I'm sure they don't, but the price of the V2 for example is really confusing compared to the new mirrorless systems out there with better image quality.  I have the V2 and I had the V1 in the past.   I do like the system, but like has been mentioned many times already on this forum, the prices don't make any sense.  If they need to recover their development expenses, I'm not sure what to say, but just look at the competition.   If Nikon's prices are so high because of a need to recover costs from the building of a new factory and the R&D associated with the 1 system, maybe they should find another way of doing it instead of instantly driving away potential buyers once they see the price tag.  Honestly, m4/3 has better image quality, very fast AF and less expensive bodies these days compared to the V2, for example.   I'm not bashing the V2 because I own one.  I'm just stating the obvious/truth.  I can't believe Nikon doesn't understand this and do something about the pricing.   The excellent Olympus EM5 is only $200 more with the 14-42 lens.  Really Nikon....wake up please

Oh and I do love my D600 also.  I like Nikon, but they need to get a clue when it comes to the Nikon 1 pricing.

Just curious... why did you buy a V2 if it is too expensive and the other options out there are better?

This isn't to critisize you, I own a V2 too, but I wouldn't have bought it if I had thought it didn't offer good value for what I wanted.
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Photo Pete
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Re: Sorry Dave, Sunny's right ...
In reply to Jim F, Sep 17, 2013

SunnyFlorida wrote:

Dave Luttmann wrote: Thom can blather on all he likes.....companies do listen to their customers....not Thom.

Really? Take the pepsi challenge, send an e-mail to Thom and then send an E-Mail to Tokyo attn VP of product development, let's see who answers your e-mail first.

Dave: These camera customers DO NOT listen to their customers, otherwise we'd not be complaining 'ad nauseam' about the dumb things they do and don't do. Just think, if they did listen to their customers; there would be no DPReview forum on which to post all of these silly arguments and lousy pictures of house cats. So, I agree 100% with Sunny on this one.

It is a big assumption to make that the users of DPReview represent the majority of Nikon customers. It is quite possible that if Nikon were to produce products which satisfy DPReview comments that their sales numbers would go down!

However I think Thom is very well placed to comment and Nikon would do well to listen. The only thing I disagree about is the severity of Thom's comments. They come across as the comments of a man who is frustrated about not having any influence on Nikon and he would do well to concentrate more on reviews and technique articles for a while instead.
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anthony mazzeri
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Re: Sorry Dave, Sunny's right ...
In reply to Jim F, Sep 17, 2013

Jim F wrote:

SunnyFlorida wrote:

Dave Luttmann wrote: Thom can blather on all he likes.....companies do listen to their customers....not Thom.

Really? Take the pepsi challenge, send an e-mail to Thom and then send an E-Mail to Tokyo attn VP of product development, let's see who answers your e-mail first.

Dave: These camera customers DO NOT listen to their customers, otherwise we'd not be complaining 'ad nauseam' about the dumb things they do and don't do. Just think, if they did listen to their customers; there would be no DPReview forum on which to post all of these silly arguments and lousy pictures of house cats. So, I agree 100% with Sunny on this one.

I was in full agreement with you up until the dissing of cat pics part. There's absolutely no need to be nasty and personally denigrating myself and/or others' abilities just to make your point about corporate customer relations.

Anyway, back to the discussion, if Dave is right then why can't I mount my SB-800 on any Nikon 1 camera?

I've been asking that for two years now since the V1 specs were announced and will likely still be asking after the V3 announcement. But according to Dave, why do I even need to ask? They should know it's what I want/need if they do indeed listen to their customers as he claims.

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D200_4me
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Re: The price is baffling
In reply to Photo Pete, Sep 17, 2013

Photo Pete wrote:

Just curious... why did you buy a V2 if it is too expensive and the other options out there are better?

This isn't to critisize you, I own a V2 too, but I wouldn't have bought it if I had thought it didn't offer good value for what I wanted.
--

It was because I enjoyed the V1 a lot.  I was just saying, technically speaking, there are some other cameras that do offer more than the V1 for nearly the same cost or less.  So of course to many people, the other cameras are more appealing and they don't really consider the V2 very much....unless there's a specific reason why they want it.

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photoreddi
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Re: Thom who?
In reply to SunnyFlorida, Sep 17, 2013

SunnyFlorida wrote:

Dave Luttmann wrote:

SunnyFlorida wrote:

Photo Pete wrote

Thom makes some good points, but should get back to talking about photography and equipment, on which he is an absolute expert.

His market assessments always smack of someone who thinks they should be more important than they are with the major camera manufacturers.

The same can be said of "Major Camera Manufacturers" who think they know better than their consumers and therefore they don't listen to them. Thom has his pulse on consumers, he directly answers e-mails from readers, he runs several training seminars and workshops per year, show me one Nikon executive who does the same with his customers? Advantage Thom.

Are you comparing a guy who runs a website to an executive from a company?

Yes, and he is not just 'A Guy", he's a photographer with over two decades of experience and he has tested and used just about every piece of Nikon gear that has been created in the past 20-years; I dare you to find one Nikon executive who has done the same.

And his experience and expertise isn't limited to Nikon's products. He shoots with a wide variety of camera brands including Canon's DSLRs and advanced P&S cameras and has also written reviews and guides for several Fuji DSLRs. Thom has written that he had originally intended to also write guides for Canon's DSLRs but was (if I recall correctly) discouraged by publishing insiders who told him that Nikon DSLR owners were much more likely to be tech. oriented and buy guides as opposed to Canon DSLR owners that wouldn't.

But you're trying to convince a guy that apparently loathes Thom, and he's probably well aware that Thom isn't just "a guy who runs a website", a guy that has a resume that Dave could only dream of, when he isn't seeing it as a nightmare. He has done more than just hosting workshops, photo safaris and expeditions :

Thom Hogan's resume reads like a random walk, albeit an interesting one. Author of over two dozen books (see right column) that combined have sold over a million copies worldwide, Thom also had a career at the forefront of a number of high tech startups. That's included companies that:

  • Created the first mass-produced portable computer (Osborne Computer; Thom was Director of Software).
  • Developed the first complete pen-based operating system built entirely from scratch and completely object-oriented to its core (GO's Penpoint; Thom was Senior Evangelist).
  • Designed the first consumer digital camera (QuickCam; Thom was Business Unit Manager).
  • Developed the first table publishing program (Tycho TableMaker; Thom was the founder and product designer, and headed up marketing and sales).

Along the way, Thom has been a professional symphony musician (Spokane Symphony), a television director/producer (KWSU, KTIU), a filmmaker, a university instructor (filmmaking and television production at Indiana University), the lead editor of several publications (including Infoworld), and even worked on a feature film ("The George Dunlap Tape," which eventually became "Brainstorm").

.

Thom can blather on all he likes.....companies do listen to their customers....not Thom.

Really? Take the pepsi challenge, send an e-mail to Thom and then send an E-Mail to Tokyo attn VP of product development, let's see who answers your e-mail first.

He won't, he's too busy blathering. BTW, Nikon doesn't listen to too many people, customers or otherwise, but Nikon does listen to Thom, who traveled to Japan and got Nikon to reverse the harmful effects of its Hot Pixel Suppression firmware update and really bent some ears with this :

...

Thom Hogan had a dream come true recently. After complaining bitterly for many years that Nikon was not listening to him (or anybody else as the matter of fact), he was invited to Japan for some chat.

See his webpage: http://www.bythom.com/design2010.htm The Backlash, 6th paragraph. In his comment dated April 5, 2010 he said:

"A couple of weeks ago I gave a presentation to Nikon executives and designers in Japan. One of the things I based my presentation on was that DSLR sales have peaked and that market growth will never return to the levels we've seen, if growth returns at all...."

This seems to be all, if there is anything else, I missed it. So Nikon did listen to him after all. Impossible mission accomplished. Congratulations Thom!

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/35010534

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JL Salvignol
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Re: Thom who?
In reply to SunnyFlorida, Sep 17, 2013

I totally agree with SF on this one!

An observation: Thom publishes a book on the Nikon 1 system, I bought it and it is excellent. If those who lament over the weaknesses of N1 were using this book their opinion will change quickly and positively. In any case, the V1 is a superb and extremely efficient tool.

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lukaw
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Re: Thom who?
In reply to photoreddi, Sep 17, 2013

photoreddi wrote:

SunnyFlorida wrote:

Dave Luttmann wrote:

SunnyFlorida wrote:

Photo Pete wrote

Thom makes some good points, but should get back to talking about photography and equipment, on which he is an absolute expert.

His market assessments always smack of someone who thinks they should be more important than they are with the major camera manufacturers.

The same can be said of "Major Camera Manufacturers" who think they know better than their consumers and therefore they don't listen to them. Thom has his pulse on consumers, he directly answers e-mails from readers, he runs several training seminars and workshops per year, show me one Nikon executive who does the same with his customers? Advantage Thom.

Are you comparing a guy who runs a website to an executive from a company?

Yes, and he is not just 'A Guy", he's a photographer with over two decades of experience and he has tested and used just about every piece of Nikon gear that has been created in the past 20-years; I dare you to find one Nikon executive who has done the same.

And his experience and expertise isn't limited to Nikon's products. He shoots with a wide variety of camera brands including Canon's DSLRs and advanced P&S cameras and has also written reviews and guides for several Fuji DSLRs. Thom has written that he had originally intended to also write guides for Canon's DSLRs but was (if I recall correctly) discouraged by publishing insiders who told him that Nikon DSLR owners were much more likely to be tech. oriented and buy guides as opposed to Canon DSLR owners that wouldn't.

But you're trying to convince a guy that apparently loathes Thom, and he's probably well aware that Thom isn't just "a guy who runs a website", a guy that has a resume that Dave could only dream of, when he isn't seeing it as a nightmare. He has done more than just hosting workshops, photo safaris and expeditions :

It's well known and established.

Thom Hogan's resume reads like a random walk, albeit an interesting one. Author of over two dozen books (see right column) that combined have sold over a million copies worldwide, Thom also had a career at the forefront of a number of high tech startups. That's included companies that:

  • Created the first mass-produced portable computer (Osborne Computer; Thom was Director of Software).
  • Developed the first complete pen-based operating system built entirely from scratch and completely object-oriented to its core (GO's Penpoint; Thom was Senior Evangelist).
  • Designed the first consumer digital camera (QuickCam; Thom was Business Unit Manager).
  • Developed the first table publishing program (Tycho TableMaker; Thom was the founder and product designer, and headed up marketing and sales).

Along the way, Thom has been a professional symphony musician (Spokane Symphony), a television director/producer (KWSU, KTIU), a filmmaker, a university instructor (filmmaking and television production at Indiana University), the lead editor of several publications (including Infoworld), and even worked on a feature film ("The George Dunlap Tape," which eventually became "Brainstorm").

.

Thom can blather on all he likes.....companies do listen to their customers....not Thom.

Really? Take the pepsi challenge, send an e-mail to Thom and then send an E-Mail to Tokyo attn VP of product development, let's see who answers your e-mail first.

He won't, he's too busy blathering. BTW, Nikon doesn't listen to too many people, customers or otherwise, but Nikon does listen to Thom, who traveled to Japan and got Nikon to reverse the harmful effects of its Hot Pixel Suppression firmware update and really bent some ears with this

Your observation is right on the money.

Thom Hogan had a dream come true recently. After complaining bitterly for many years that Nikon was not listening to him (or anybody else as the matter of fact), he was invited to Japan for some chat.

See his webpage: http://www.bythom.com/design2010.htm The Backlash, 6th paragraph. In his comment dated April 5, 2010 he said:

"A couple of weeks ago I gave a presentation to Nikon executives and designers in Japan. One of the things I based my presentation on was that DSLR sales have peaked and that market growth will never return to the levels we've seen, if growth returns at all...."

This seems to be all, if there is anything else, I missed it. So Nikon did listen to him after all. Impossible mission accomplished. Congratulations Thom!

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/35010534

Right on.

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AustinB
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Re: Thom Hogan: "Get fully behind Nikon 1 or drop it."
In reply to Pangloss, Sep 17, 2013

Owning an OMD for a few weeks has provided an entirely new perspective on the 1 system. While the OMD is a very nice camera, I find the usability of the 1 system even better. The AF, simplicity, and intuitive layout of the menu are excellent. The OMD menu is absurd, although other aspects of the camera are fantastic (touch screen focusing for example). There isn't as much of a gap in IQ as expected, either. And many times, I prefer the look of the 1 system for some subjective reason I can't explain.

The 1 system is the result of a lackluster effort, much indecision, bad pricing, etc. And yet, despite many unforced errors and fumbles, the company managed to produce a great ML system. If and when Nikon got serious about ML cameras, it could make serious waves. But as of now they don't get behind their own system, so my $ goes to Oly, who even with their bad menus, is pouring its heart into making great ML cameras.

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Tom May
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Re: Thom Hogan: "Get fully behind Nikon 1 or drop it."
In reply to vkyr2, Sep 17, 2013

I just want to interject that I believe that Nikon initiated the Nikon 1 series with the knowledge that it would evolve into a higher iso systems just as APS-C has, only a couple of stops behind the curve. For many photographers, the tradeoffs are acceptable. Sony's thinking appears to be similar.

What is not acceptable for existing Nikon DSLR owners is the lack of continuity in accessories, i.e., lack of CLS as an example, and lack of equivalent controls and placements on the V models. The problem today is that Nikon mis-priced the line such that there are too many V2's in inventory, so even if a V3 is the plans and mitigates some of the existing limitations, the delay will certainly cause some to abandon the 1 series, albeit a lot of us will be looking for V2 deals. This would be a good time for Nikon to send a message of future support for bodies and lenses.

With regard to the Coolpix P7800 which is quite a nice compact, it would have been much more capable with a 1" sensor, albeit it would have required much more engineering and manufacturing efforts that the current update.

Which brings up the Sony QX models. I have a preorder for the QX100, and as much as it is limited in its capabilities, it may be a disruption that will allow smartphone users to get a big bump in IQ at a fairly low cost, cutting into the market of the P7800 and G16. The point of this is that Nikon should be thinking outside the box and getting ahead of the curve.

I certainly agree with Thom on this.

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The Davinator
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Re: Sorry Dave, Sunny's right ...
In reply to anthony mazzeri, Sep 17, 2013

Maybe because it is a different camera system.  Are you mounting your lenses for you FF bodies to your V series camera?

anthony mazzeri wrote:

Jim F wrote:

SunnyFlorida wrote:

Dave Luttmann wrote: Thom can blather on all he likes.....companies do listen to their customers....not Thom.

Really? Take the pepsi challenge, send an e-mail to Thom and then send an E-Mail to Tokyo attn VP of product development, let's see who answers your e-mail first.

Dave: These camera customers DO NOT listen to their customers, otherwise we'd not be complaining 'ad nauseam' about the dumb things they do and don't do. Just think, if they did listen to their customers; there would be no DPReview forum on which to post all of these silly arguments and lousy pictures of house cats. So, I agree 100% with Sunny on this one.

I was in full agreement with you up until the dissing of cat pics part. There's absolutely no need to be nasty and personally denigrating myself and/or others' abilities just to make your point about corporate customer relations.

Anyway, back to the discussion, if Dave is right then why can't I mount my SB-800 on any Nikon 1 camera?

I've been asking that for two years now since the V1 specs were announced and will likely still be asking after the V3 announcement. But according to Dave, why do I even need to ask? They should know it's what I want/need if they do indeed listen to their customers as he claims.

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myzel
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Re: Sorry Dave, Sunny's right ...
In reply to The Davinator, Sep 17, 2013

Dave Luttmann wrote:

Maybe because it is a different camera system.

It is a different camera system, but it's a bad idea not to support an industry standard flash hot shoe or no supporting their own, well established, flash system.

Are you mounting your lenses for you FF bodies to your V series camera?

Yes.

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The Davinator
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Re: Sorry Dave, Sunny's right ...
In reply to myzel, Sep 17, 2013

Really?  Your FX le s mounts without any adaptor?  Interesting....if it were true.

myzel wrote:

Dave Luttmann wrote:

Maybe because it is a different camera system.

It is a different camera system, but it's a bad idea not to support an industry standard flash hot shoe or no supporting their own, well established, flash system.

Are you mounting your lenses for you FF bodies to your V series camera?

Yes.

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myzel
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Re: Sorry Dave, Sunny's right ...
In reply to The Davinator, Sep 17, 2013

Dave Luttmann wrote:

Really? Your FX le s mounts without any adaptor? Interesting....if it were true.

LOL

Mount FX lens on Nikon 1 body: there is an Nikon made adapter for that (FT-1)

Mount Nikon SB-900 on a Nikon 1 body: there is no adapter for that.

Nikon thinks it's a good idea to use F-mount lenses with the Nikon 1 system. Nikon thinks it's a good idea to use the speedlights for their dSLRs with some coolpix cameras but not with Nikon 1 system cameras.

Surely that's because dSLRs and Coolpixes are the same system and Nikon 1 is a completely different system. Or something like that.

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