What is advantage and disadvantage between X-trans vs Bayer array

Started 10 months ago | Questions
Charles2
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One example of artifact
In reply to DMillier, 10 months ago

DMillier wrote:

,,,

The X-trans approach claims to reduce the risk of colour aliasing/moire effects but it can't do anything about luminance aliasing (jaggies, false diagonal striped patterns and the like) unfortunately....

I got one photo with an artifact, on the mesh steel surface of a drawbridge. I fixed most of it in post processing.
Drawbridge
And note that the photo is large enough that you should view it at least two meters away from the monitor.

You can see the artifact in this 100 percent crop of the image before additional post processing:
Crop, before repair

The lens was a rather wide one, a Zeiss 28/2.8 set at f/8. Zeiss lenses have amazing resolution. And bright sun bounced off the mesh into the camera.

A fact, yes. Outweighed by thousands of other shots. No problem.

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DVT80111
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Re: What is advantage and disadvantage between X-trans vs Bayer array
In reply to DVT80111, 10 months ago

Canon T2i - ISO 800 1/60S, F7.1

X-E1, ISO1600, 1/60s, F8

There is no dark shadow in the Fuji picture as you can see. When I shoot low light, I have to boost up the light in post for 90% of the time. When I do that with the Canon, the bright area will max out which is frustrating. With the Fuji, I have much less of a problem.

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DVT80111
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Re: What is advantage and disadvantage between X-trans vs Bayer array
In reply to DVT80111, 10 months ago

Canon T2i - This was not how my eye saw it. There should not be any dark shadow.

X-E1 - a more sensible.

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Randy Benter
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Re: What is advantage and disadvantage between X-trans vs Bayer array
In reply to DVT80111, 10 months ago

In both examples, you dialed in -1EV exposure compensation for the Canon, thereby exposing the Canon shots by a full stop less. The Canon images should be darker based on your chosen settings.

In addition to the exposure difference, the default tone curve in the Canon has a bit more contrast. You can use the in camera settings of either camera to get the contrast closer to your liking. I usually find the Fuji images lift the shadows a bit too much and they can be improved by setting a proper black point.

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mjl699
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Re: What is advantage and disadvantage between X-trans vs Bayer array
In reply to Randy Benter, 10 months ago

Well written response Randy with lots of points to ponder.

What's the difference between 16 MP Bayer without OLPF and 16 MP X-Trans without OLPF ?

  • Bayer has 18/36 green pixels versus 20/36 for X-Trans.
  • Bayer has 9/36 red pixels versus 8/36 for X-Trans.
  • Bayer has 9/36 blue pixels versus 8/36 for X-Trans.
  • Bayer and X-Trans have different arrangements for their pixels.

So what? Actually, I don't think any of the above matters at all.

What's the difference between a 16 MP sensor with OLPF and a 16 MP sensor without OLPF ?

  • A slight improvement in resolution for the camera without the OLPF.
  • You get more Moire without an OLPF.
  • You MUST sharpen an image made with a sensor with an OLPF in front of it.

So what the difference between X-Trans and Bayer with OLPF? The OLPF. And what is the difference between X-Trans and Bayer without OLPF? Not a lot.

One thing which hinders comparisons between X-Trans and Bayer+OLPF is that you MUST sharpen Bayer+OLPF. The purpose of the OLPF is to smear the light incident on the sensor enough that Moire does not occur. This means smearing red and blue light enough that goes from pixel rows with only green pixels to the neighbouring pixel rows. So you MUST sharpen. The result is that all Bayer+OLPF images have the artefacts of sharpening. You can of course sharpen an non-OLPF image, but you need not do so. In fact, it is best not to do so - the image is a lot more "natural" (and softer) if you do not sharpen.

So to compare the best of OLPF and non-OLPF you are comparing a sharpened image to a natural one - which is not like-for-like. In particular, if you are used to sharpened images or you like them, you will favour the OLPF image. If you don't like sharpening, you'll prefer the non-OLPF image.

I always liked film and I never liked the effect of digital sharpening. Funnily enough I like X-Trans. Oh, and I like the output from digital Leicas. And no doubt I will like the output from the new Olympus OM-D EM-1 too.

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mjl599

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DVT80111
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Re: What is advantage and disadvantage between X-trans vs Bayer array
In reply to Randy Benter, 10 months ago

That was my error. I did not reset the exposure compensation. Will redo again tomorrow afternoon with tripod and straight manual mode.

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Ooxus
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Re: What is advantage and disadvantage between X-trans vs Bayer array
In reply to ealvarez, 10 months ago

Marketing trick! 

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DMillier
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Re: X-Trans is Simply More Added Value, In Our Favor!
In reply to VisualFX, 10 months ago

Hi

I don't have any evidence either way at the moment as I'm a brand new XE1 owner and I don't yet have a lens for it, so no pictures.

What I'm predicting based on the experience with other cameras that omit the AA filter (and examining samples shots from the likes of the Leica Monochrom) is that the xtrans CFA will do nothing to reduce luminance (uncoloured) aliasing caused by the absence of the AA filter.

Many people either don't see or even like these artefacts (they can make edges look crisper) but it's a kind of digital artefacting I'm not fond of.

Hopefully, other factors (shallow DOF, slight camera shake, diffraction, lens softness, avoiding very large prints etc) will help provide a little blurring and do the job of the usual AA filter so it won't be too much of an annoyance.

I'll report back my experience in due course.

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bowportes
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Re: What is advantage and disadvantage between X-trans vs Bayer array
In reply to mjl699, 10 months ago

mjl699 wrote:

Well written response Randy with lots of points to ponder.

What's the difference between 16 MP Bayer without OLPF and 16 MP X-Trans without OLPF ?

  • Bayer has 18/36 green pixels versus 20/36 for X-Trans.
  • Bayer has 9/36 red pixels versus 8/36 for X-Trans.
  • Bayer has 9/36 blue pixels versus 8/36 for X-Trans.
  • Bayer and X-Trans have different arrangements for their pixels.

So what? Actually, I don't think any of the above matters at all.

What's the difference between a 16 MP sensor with OLPF and a 16 MP sensor without OLPF ?

  • A slight improvement in resolution for the camera without the OLPF.
  • You get more Moire without an OLPF.
  • You MUST sharpen an image made with a sensor with an OLPF in front of it.

So what the difference between X-Trans and Bayer with OLPF? The OLPF. And what is the difference between X-Trans and Bayer without OLPF? Not a lot.

One thing which hinders comparisons between X-Trans and Bayer+OLPF is that you MUST sharpen Bayer+OLPF. The purpose of the OLPF is to smear the light incident on the sensor enough that Moire does not occur. This means smearing red and blue light enough that goes from pixel rows with only green pixels to the neighbouring pixel rows. So you MUST sharpen. The result is that all Bayer+OLPF images have the artefacts of sharpening. You can of course sharpen an non-OLPF image, but you need not do so. In fact, it is best not to do so - the image is a lot more "natural" (and softer) if you do not sharpen.

So to compare the best of OLPF and non-OLPF you are comparing a sharpened image to a natural one - which is not like-for-like. In particular, if you are used to sharpened images or you like them, you will favour the OLPF image. If you don't like sharpening, you'll prefer the non-OLPF image.

I always liked film and I never liked the effect of digital sharpening. Funnily enough I like X-Trans. Oh, and I like the output from digital Leicas. And no doubt I will like the output from the new Olympus OM-D EM-1 too.

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mjl599

So I'm going to ask you (or anyone else here) a question: What in-camera JPEG settings on an XP1 or XE1 would achieve the most "film-like" (non-digitally sharpened) looking images?  Should the Sharp setting be at -2?  Should Noise be the same? I had tried these settings for a while, but found the JPEG noise to be excessive (for my tastes) at 1600 and 3200 ISO. So Noise is now set to 0. For awhile I had also set Sharp to +1, but found that completely smooth background areas were developing fine digital "grain" as a consequence. That setting has been returned to Sharp 0.

So I return to my question... Do you believe I would achieve the most natural (i.e. non-digital) sharpness with Sharp -2 and Noise -2, or is Sharp 0 / Noise 0 the most neutral setting?  Relatedly, does Sharp -2 simply turn off all sharpening, leaving me closest to the sharpness of the Optic in front of the sensor, or does it introduce a certain amount of blur/fuzziness, with Sharp 0 being more neutral? Finally, would the answer depend in part upon the "film" selection?  Does Astia, for example, sharpen more than Provia irrespective of the Sharp setting?

I got long-winded, but you get my drift.

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Randy Benter
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Re: What is advantage and disadvantage between X-trans vs Bayer array
In reply to bowportes, 10 months ago

bowportes wrote:

So I'm going to ask you (or anyone else here) a question: What in-camera JPEG settings on an XP1 or XE1 would achieve the most "film-like" (non-digitally sharpened) looking images? Should the Sharp setting be at -2? Should Noise be the same? I had tried these settings for a while, but found the JPEG noise to be excessive (for my tastes) at 1600 and 3200 ISO. So Noise is now set to 0. For awhile I had also set Sharp to +1, but found that completely smooth background areas were developing fine digital "grain" as a consequence. That setting has been returned to Sharp 0.

So I return to my question... Do you believe I would achieve the most natural (i.e. non-digital) sharpness with Sharp -2 and Noise -2, or is Sharp 0 / Noise 0 the most neutral setting?

I think this is very much a matter of personal preference. I recommend shooting test images with all the various settings, then comparing the images side-by-side with some of your favorite film images to see which settings produce the results you desire.

Relatedly, does Sharp -2 simply turn off all sharpening, leaving me closest to the sharpness of the Optic in front of the sensor, or does it introduce a certain amount of blur/fuzziness, with Sharp 0 being more neutral?

All the sharp settings add sharpness to the image. The lowest setting (-2) adds the least amount of sharpening. So -2 is the most neutral setting.

Finally, would the answer depend in part upon the "film" selection? Does Astia, for example, sharpen more than Provia irrespective of the Sharp setting?

The film emulation only affects the color profile and the tone curve (contrast). It does not affect the sharpening.

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bowportes
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Re: What is advantage and disadvantage between X-trans vs Bayer array
In reply to Randy Benter, 10 months ago

Randy Benter wrote:

bowportes wrote:

So I'm going to ask you (or anyone else here) a question: What in-camera JPEG settings on an XP1 or XE1 would achieve the most "film-like" (non-digitally sharpened) looking images? Should the Sharp setting be at -2? Should Noise be the same? I had tried these settings for a while, but found the JPEG noise to be excessive (for my tastes) at 1600 and 3200 ISO. So Noise is now set to 0. For awhile I had also set Sharp to +1, but found that completely smooth background areas were developing fine digital "grain" as a consequence. That setting has been returned to Sharp 0.

So I return to my question... Do you believe I would achieve the most natural (i.e. non-digital) sharpness with Sharp -2 and Noise -2, or is Sharp 0 / Noise 0 the most neutral setting?

I think this is very much a matter of personal preference. I recommend shooting test images with all the various settings, then comparing the images side-by-side with some of your favorite film images to see which settings produce the results you desire.

I was interested in the opinion (personal preference) of others who strive for a filmic (non-digitally sharpened look), thinking they might have tips for settings / combos to try.

Relatedly, does Sharp -2 simply turn off all sharpening, leaving me closest to the sharpness of the Optic in front of the sensor, or does it introduce a certain amount of blur/fuzziness, with Sharp 0 being more neutral?

All the sharp settings add sharpness to the image. The lowest setting (-2) adds the least amount of sharpening. So -2 is the most neutral setting.

Helpful

Finally, would the answer depend in part upon the "film" selection? Does Astia, for example, sharpen more than Provia irrespective of the Sharp setting?

The film emulation only affects the color profile and the tone curve (contrast). It does not affect the sharpening.

I would have thought so, but then I wonder why some descriptions of Color Neg (standard) and Provia claim that they offer the "greatest level of detail, without specifying "detail in highlights" or "in shadows".

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Charles2
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Re: What is advantage and disadvantage between X-trans vs Bayer array
In reply to mjl699, 10 months ago

mjl699 wrote:

...

I always liked film and I never liked the effect of digital sharpening.

Sharpening is like makeup: it should improve appearance without its use being noticeable.

One of the best sharpening toolkits in a general purpose processing program is in Picture Window Pro. You control radius, amount, and a unique pair of sliders that choose how much to apply sharpening to areas that are more or less uniform (neighboring pixels are close in color or not).

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Red5TX
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Re: What is advantage and disadvantage between X-trans vs Bayer array
In reply to Charles2, 10 months ago

Charles2 wrote:

mjl699 wrote:

...

I always liked film and I never liked the effect of digital sharpening.

Sharpening is like makeup: it should improve appearance without its use being noticeable.

One of the best sharpening toolkits in a general purpose processing program is in Picture Window Pro. You control radius, amount, and a unique pair of sliders that choose how much to apply sharpening to areas that are more or less uniform (neighboring pixels are close in color or not).

Sharpening techniques will also change depending on the final print or image size you want. There is no one true/perfect sharpening technique.  It varies depending on many variables, all of which are dependent on the final output the photographer wants.

Sharpening is horribly complex. Take a look at Jeff Schewe's "The Digital Negative" for a (reasonably) concise discussion of how to do it in LR.

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bowportes
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Re: What is advantage and disadvantage between X-trans vs Bayer array
In reply to Charles2, 10 months ago

Charles2 wrote:

mjl699 wrote:

...

I always liked film and I never liked the effect of digital sharpening.

Sharpening is like makeup: it should improve appearance without its use being noticeable.

One of the best sharpening toolkits in a general purpose processing program is in Picture Window Pro. You control radius, amount, and a unique pair of sliders that choose how much to apply sharpening to areas that are more or less uniform (neighboring pixels are close in color or not).

Yes, but you can't open Fuji X raw files with Picture Window Pro.

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Charles2
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Re: What is advantage and disadvantage between X-trans vs Bayer array
In reply to bowportes, 10 months ago

bowportes wrote:

Yes, but you can't open Fuji X raw files with Picture Window Pro.

Open the RAF file in Fuji Raw File Converter. Select the "Super Neutral" taste. Adjust exposure and white balance, usually reduce sharpening but set demosaic to 95. Save as TIF file. Open in PWP.

Sharpening is typically done at or near the end of post processing.

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umanemo
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Yes, "It Makes The Image More Pleasant"
In reply to Charles2, 10 months ago

My feeling exactly!

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DVT80111
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Re: What is advantage and disadvantage between X-trans vs Bayer array
In reply to DVT80111, 10 months ago

T2i - ISO 3200

X-E1 ISO 6400

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