The Advantages of DR400 vs DR200 vs DR100 - High Contrast Scene

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alexisgreat
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Re: The Advantages of DR400 vs DR200 vs DR100 - High Contrast Scene
In reply to Trevor G, 10 months ago

I dont remember anyone mentioning if the intermediate ISO steps were sensor based or if they were full stop ISO that were under or over exposed

But now I'm also becoming interested in how the F and HS series respond differently to M size DR Hardware EXR in terms of the ISO ceiling, beyond which it goes over to Software EXR compared to what happens with the X series.

I'll also download RAW Digger, I have a bunch of different programs now including Lightroom, Silkypix and RawTherapee as well as a few others. RAW Digger, based on what you're saying, seems to be the best.

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Trevor G
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EXR Hardware at ISO320 and DR400 - 2 Frames
In reply to alexisgreat, 10 months ago

alexisgreat wrote:

I dont remember anyone mentioning if the intermediate ISO steps were sensor based or if they were full stop ISO that were under or over exposed

This might help you remember:

Check the knife and compare between frames

Here is Frame 2.  Note that RawDigger is not always accurately representing the exposure difference visually.  It's reasonable with EXR hardware but not good with EXR software.  This DR400 frame is a full 2EV down on Frame 1 on the histogram:

Now, I wonder what else I have to show?

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alexisgreat
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Re: EXR Hardware at ISO320 and DR400 - 2 Frames
In reply to Trevor G, 10 months ago

Thanks Trev  please see the other thread..... you have already established the F/HS series are different, because DR=ISO still results in hardware EXR at M size. Now let's see what happens when ISO slightly exceeds DR in these F/HS cameras, for example M size DR 400 at ISO 500, 640 and 800 Thanks for all your efforts!

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Lightpath48
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Re: Timur's summary of Fujifilm X10's functions and issues...
In reply to Luego, 10 months ago

After reading Timur's article, I'm still thinking the X10 is a better jpeg than raw shooter for me (Apple/Aperture user).

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Elyharbour
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Re: The Advantages of DR400 vs DR200 vs DR100 - High Contrast Scene
In reply to Trevor G, 10 months ago

Trevor, can you clarify something for me? If I understood you correctly, the highlight protection afforded by DR200 and DR400 doesn't write itself into the RAW files as such, but LR recognises a flag and adjusts the shot to the correct exposure (or something like that).

But, what find is that the RAF files taken at DR100/200/400in look identical when they load-up in LR4.4, both in terms of overall exposure and blown highlights. However, if I then take all three back -2EV and / or -100 on the highlights slider, then there is a lot of detail evident in the DR200 and DR400 RAFs that cannot be recovered in the DR100 RAF. So what's happening here? It certainly seems as if the DR200/400 highlight protection is available in RAW...or did I misunderstand??

Oh, just to remind you, this is with the X20 so no EXR hardware involved,

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Trevor G
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Re: The Advantages of DR400 vs DR200 vs DR100 - High Contrast Scene
In reply to Elyharbour, 10 months ago

Elyharbour wrote:

But, what find is that the RAF files taken at DR100/200/400in look identical when they load-up in LR4.4, both in terms of overall exposure and blown highlights. However, if I then take all three back -2EV and / or -100 on the highlights slider, then there is a lot of detail evident in the DR200 and DR400 RAFs that cannot be recovered in the DR100 RAF. So what's happening here? It certainly seems as if the DR200/400 highlight protection is available in RAW...or did I misunderstand??

Oh, just to remind you, this is with the X20 so no EXR hardware involved.

Thanks for bringing this thread back on track!

I'm not sure about Lightroom, but I would imagine it is run by ACR.  I am using ACR 7.1 and it shows correct display levels in the preview and the histogram, according to how it was exposed.

Not sure why you are having problems.

Just got the latest RawDigger  (early) so I'll see if they have fixed the display.

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Elyharbour
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Re: The Advantages of DR400 vs DR200 vs DR100 - High Contrast Scene
In reply to Trevor G, 10 months ago

I assume LR4.4 uses ACR7.4, but I'll try some other converters as well and see what I see.

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Elyharbour
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Re: The Advantages of DR400 vs DR200 vs DR100 - High Contrast Scene
In reply to Elyharbour, 10 months ago

I've just seen the same results in Silkypix. But back to LR4.4. Here are exported JPEGs from two RAW files - one at DR100 and one at DR400. Ihe original OOC RAWs looked more or less the same. The window was completely white with virtually no detail. In both cases I then pulled back exposure by -2EV and the highlights slider to -100%. You will see that detail then appeared in the DR400 window, but not the DR100 one. At DR200, the result was in between, but closer to DR400.

So it would seems DR200/DR400 is writing highlight protection to the RAW files, but you have to pull it out.

RAW from DR100

RAW from DR400

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Trevor G
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Re: The Advantages of DR400 vs DR200 vs DR100 - High Contrast Scene
In reply to Elyharbour, 10 months ago

Elyharbour wrote:

I've just seen the same results in Silkypix. But back to LR4.4. Here are exported JPEGs from two RAW files - one at DR100 and one at DR400. Ihe original OOC RAWs looked more or less the same. The window was completely white with virtually no detail. In both cases I then pulled back exposure by -2EV and the highlights slider to -100%. You will see that detail then appeared in the DR400 window, but not the DR100 one. At DR200, the result was in between, but closer to DR400.

So it would seems DR200/DR400 is writing highlight protection to the RAW files, but you have to pull it out.

Yes, that's correct.

DR200 under-exposes by one stop and DR400 under-expose by 2 stops.

In-camera the under-exposure is pulled back up and:

1) In the case of the in-camera JPEG the highlights above 0EV are pulled back under 0EV.  This involves compressing those details into a smaller space, which means that the image, above the midtones, is not as accuratelyecorded as below, or as it would be without those extra highlights.

Nonetheless, that compression of highlights is still better than if they are clipped away.

2) The over-exposure is left in the RAW data and is subsequently "recovered" /retrieved simply by pulling the overall exposure back in PP.

When you first open a RAW image with over-exposed but retained highlights, such as a DR200 or DR400 one, it will look bright and over-exposed until you reduce the exposure slider.

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Elyharbour
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Re: The Advantages of DR400 vs DR200 vs DR100 - High Contrast Scene
In reply to Trevor G, 10 months ago

OK, then I misunderstood what was being said in this and earlier threads. Good - all is now clear and consistent with what I'm seeing.

Thanks Trevor.

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David Rosser
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Re: The Advantages of DR400 vs DR200 vs DR100 - High Contrast Scene
In reply to Trevor G, 10 months ago

Trevor G wrote:

Elyharbour wrote:

I've just seen the same results in Silkypix. But back to LR4.4. Here are exported JPEGs from two RAW files - one at DR100 and one at DR400. Ihe original OOC RAWs looked more or less the same. The window was completely white with virtually no detail. In both cases I then pulled back exposure by -2EV and the highlights slider to -100%. You will see that detail then appeared in the DR400 window, but not the DR100 one. At DR200, the result was in between, but closer to DR400.

So it would seems DR200/DR400 is writing highlight protection to the RAW files, but you have to pull it out.

Yes, that's correct.

DR200 under-exposes by one stop and DR400 under-expose by 2 stops.

In-camera the under-exposure is pulled back up and:

1) In the case of the in-camera JPEG the highlights above 0EV are pulled back under 0EV. This involves compressing those details into a smaller space, which means that the image, above the midtones, is not as accuratelyecorded as below, or as it would be without those extra highlights.

Nonetheless, that compression of highlights is still better than if they are clipped away.

2) The over-exposure is left in the RAW data and is subsequently "recovered" /retrieved simply by pulling the overall exposure back in PP.

When you first open a RAW image with over-exposed but retained highlights, such as a DR200 or DR400 one, it will look bright and over-exposed until you reduce the exposure slider.

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Trevor G
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This has been a very interesting thread. I am a new X20 user (less than a week) having bought it to supplement my D700 outfit (I am getting more and more loath to cart around that heavy outfit except on purely photographic outings). As a confirmed RAW only shooter I was a bit confused about what exactly was going on when I shot RAW plus JPEG. Looking at shots of the white patch on my color checker passport in RawDigger confirmed strange things were going on. I have now learned that to shoot RAW you should

1) Select RAW only not RAW + jpeg

2) Set DR to DR100 not any other setting. Interesting point: if you set ISO100 and RAW only you can only choose between DR100 and AUTO but if you choose ISO200 you can choose between DR100, DR200 and AUTO.

3) With the above settings the camera exposure meter is accurate and in fact gives exposures quite close to what you would expect using British Standard Exposure tables BS935/1957 (I know, I know but they are quite accurate - they are a sophisticated version of the Sunny f/16 rule )

Lightroom is very happy with the above settings as is Capture one pro.

I have made a couple of colour profiles for Lightroom but still need to produce a universal one to cover all lighting colour temperatures.

Other lessons I have learned are that loss of sharpness due to diffraction makes f/11 virtually unusable.

Another strange point I have one picture showing noticeable barrel distortion in RawDigger that is not nearly so noticeable in Lightroom 5 yet there is no lens profile in Lightroom - mysterious.

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Trevor G
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Re: The Advantages of DR400 vs DR200 vs DR100 - High Contrast Scene
In reply to David Rosser, 10 months ago

David Rosser wrote:

1) Select RAW only not RAW + jpeg

I'm not sure that it matters...

2) Set DR to DR100 not any other setting. Interesting point: if you set ISO100 and RAW only you can only choose between DR100 and AUTO but if you choose ISO200 you can choose between DR100, DR200 and AUTO.

That's normal behaviour - that's what I have been saying and is in all literature on the subject

Other lessons I have learned are that loss of sharpness due to diffraction makes f/11 virtually unusable.

Not sure I agree.  On a landscape (such as my railways station platform shots) I have run f10 and the control lights in the distance are pin sharp.  Check it out - look for the sharp red dots.

However, we know that anything above f5.6 will definitely show the effects of diffraction on fine detail close up, compared to f4, for example.

Another strange point I have one picture showing noticeable barrel distortion in RawDigger that is not nearly so noticeable in Lightroom 5 yet there is no lens profile in Lightroom - mysterious.

The lens profile is in ACR I believe.  ACR is the foundation of Lightroom.

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BRUCEK56
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Re: The Advantages of DR400 vs DR200 vs DR100 - High Contrast Scene
In reply to Trevor G, 10 months ago

Hi Trevor,

I am still a bit confused on using "Auto DR". Is there anything wrong with just leaving it on Auto DR?

I just received my x20 yesterday and am about to go out on a long walk and test it out.

I shoot raw only and want to shoot in aperture mode with "auto iso" enabled and auto DR" enabled.

Any pointers I would appreciate!

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David Rosser
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Re: The Advantages of DR400 vs DR200 vs DR100 - High Contrast Scene
In reply to Trevor G, 10 months ago

Trevor G wrote:

David Rosser wrote:

1) Select RAW only not RAW + jpeg

I'm not sure that it matters...

I think it does if you want complete control of RAW, it seemed that if you set RAW + jpeg  you have to be very careful what your jpeg settings are as these dominate.

2) Set DR to DR100 not any other setting. Interesting point: if you set ISO100 and RAW only you can only choose between DR100 and AUTO but if you choose ISO200 you can choose between DR100, DR200 and AUTO.

That's normal behaviour - that's what I have been saying and is in all literature on the subject

Other lessons I have learned are that loss of sharpness due to diffraction makes f/11 virtually unusable.

Not sure I agree. On a landscape (such as my railways station platform shots) I have run f10 and the control lights in the distance are pin sharp. Check it out - look for the sharp red dots.

However, we know that anything above f5.6 will definitely show the effects of diffraction on fine detail close up, compared to f4, for example.

Another strange point I have one picture showing noticeable barrel distortion in RawDigger that is not nearly so noticeable in Lightroom 5 yet there is no lens profile in Lightroom - mysterious.

The lens profile is in ACR I believe. ACR is the foundation of Lightroom's -

It's not listed and I have latest versions of both Light room and Camera Raw but I will double check.  Whatever is happening distortion is pleasingly low.

One further point analysing the data in RawDigger indicates that there is not much point in going faster than ISO 200 when shooting RAW only. If you need ISO 800  shoot at ISO200 and dial in -2EV exposure compensation followed by processing in Light room and boosting the exposure there by 2EV should give same or better result.  That's the theory anyway - I have not checked it yet so I may be wrong.

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Elyharbour
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Re: The Advantages of DR400 vs DR200 vs DR100 - High Contrast Scene
In reply to David Rosser, 10 months ago

David Rosser wrote:

One further point analysing the data in RawDigger indicates that there is not much point in going faster than ISO 200 when shooting RAW only. If you need ISO 800 shoot at ISO200 and dial in -2EV exposure compensation followed by processing in Light room and boosting the exposure there by 2EV should give same or better result. That's the theory anyway - I have not checked it yet so I may be wrong.

That's an interesting approach! I wonder if it'll work and give less noise than ISO800? I might give that a try tonight.

Ref. your comment on the availability of DR200 / 400, from what I've observed you can't run at say DR400 if you've fixed the ISO level below this. Which when you think of it makes sense...because DR400 needs at least ISO400 or Auto to work (and DR200 needs at least ISO200).

There's a lot to learn isn't there! I'm about a week ahead of you in owning an X20 and still there's a bunch of stuff I haven'y tried yet.

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David Rosser
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Re: The Advantages of DR400 vs DR200 vs DR100 - High Contrast Scene
In reply to Elyharbour, 10 months ago

Elyharbour wrote:

David Rosser wrote:

One further point analysing the data in RawDigger indicates that there is not much point in going faster than ISO 200 when shooting RAW only. If you need ISO 800 shoot at ISO200 and dial in -2EV exposure compensation followed by processing in Light room and boosting the exposure there by 2EV should give same or better result. That's the theory anyway - I have not checked it yet so I may be wrong.

That's an interesting approach! I wonder if it'll work and give less noise than ISO800? I might give that a try tonight.

I just did and I can't see any significant difference between the 2 methods which is as you would expect really.

Ref. your comment on the availability of DR200 / 400, from what I've observed you can't run at say DR400 if you've fixed the ISO level below this. Which when you think of it makes sense...because DR400 needs at least ISO400 or Auto to work (and DR200 needs at least ISO200).

Duhhh Of course you are right. I am not thinking straight and as has been pointed out that is explained in the literature about the X20.

There's a lot to learn isn't there! I'm about a week ahead of you in owning an X20 and still there's a bunch of stuff I haven'y tried yet.

There is a lot top learn and I will be taking it as my main camera to Greece in a few weeks time (I don't want to lug my DSLR kit around on an archeological study holiday) so I've got to crack on.

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Re: The Advantages of DR400 vs DR200 vs DR100 - High Contrast Scene
In reply to Trevor G, 10 months ago

Trevor G wrote:

Here are some comparison images showing the advantages of using DR400 at any time, or most of the time.

Fuji call this highlight headroom extension technique (among other things) EXR processing, which is not to be confused with EXR sensors in the smaller Fuji cams. It exists in the X10 and the X20, F series EXR cameras and so on. It is also used in the large, APS-C sensor X-Series cameras

In the X10, XS-1 and XF1 it is used in conjunction with the unique sensor pixel pairing EXR hardware system to give close to 2 to 3EV of highlight protection. In the X20 it is the sole means of getting extra highlight headroom.

In the previously mentioned EXR cameras EXR sensor pixel pairing works in M size and when ISO is less than DR.

In L size images only the EXR software processing is used - we know that because to invoke it you need to use at least ISO200 for DR200, and at least ISO400 for DR400. In M size you can get DR400 at ISO100 because the EXR hardware solution is at work.

Background:

DR200 and DR400 come in handy by extending highlight headroom to reduce the chance of clipping or crushing highlights in JPEG, but it's especially valuable in RAW.

It's a bit of a party trick - you can get the same highlight results by under-exposing by 1 or 2 stops and then lifting the resulting image in PP by 2EV or so. However, if you use DR200 or DR400 in-camera, the resulting JPEGs will have their lowlights lifted as a bonus.

The main benefit of DR higher than 100 (which means straight off the sensor processing, no tricks) is seen when you have a high contrast scene, or one where scene elements would exceed 0EV.

Enough talk, here are examples. This is a scene where highlights were 2EV above 0, or 2EV higher than where the metering produced a fully exposed image according to the playback histogram in processing software.

Unfortunately, because Fuji won't give us a proper in-camera RGB histogram, you cannot use the on-board histogram to do anything other than give you a very rough guide as to where exposure should be.

First, DR400 RAW:

Next the matching ooc JPEG - notice how the highlights are close to being blown and lack contrast because of the compression which occurs at the top end during JPEG processing. The lowlights have been lifted:

Next we see what happens with DR200:

If you look closely you will see that the clouds are just starting to clip in spots (bright white, loss of detail). Still, it's an amazing result for DR200 at 2EV higher than 0.

The ooc JPEG doesn't fare as well, but then again, it's not all that much worse than the DR400 effort.:

And finally, DR100. The RAW is badly clipped (it might look better in Adobe, I'll try that later, but it still won't be good).

In this case if we had exposed at -1EV on the dial the DR100 image would have been quite OK, even though the histogram was suggesting that at +0.7EV it was not clipping:

I'm only showing the DR100 JPEG for consistency:

Note the cyan skies in each JPEG, showing that they were all clipping one channel at least.

Of course, if I had exposed at -1EV even the DR100 image would have been fine, but that's not the point.

Most times with high contrast scenes we don't really know where exposure will end up because of that lousy in-camera histogram. Consequently, if you use DR400 you can be assured of not losing highlights on almost any shot you are likely to take.

Note: For best results on standard contrast scenes (no scene elements will expose higher than 0EV) use DR100 and ISO200.

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Trevor G
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Thanks, having started to learn about my new X20 and done the experiments mentioned in my posts below and come back to your original post I now fully understand it.  It makes some very interesting and instructive points. Thanks again.

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Elyharbour
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Re: The Advantages of DR400 vs DR200 vs DR100 - High Contrast Scene
In reply to David Rosser, 10 months ago

David Rosser wrote:

There is a lot top learn and I will be taking it as my main camera to Greece in a few weeks time (I don't want to lug my DSLR kit around on an archeological study holiday) so I've got to crack on.

Likewise, but just travel and to Croatia! I could pack my NEX as a backup, but that's taking the easy way out isn't it 

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Using Auto DR400 - What Triggers DR200 and DR400?
In reply to Trevor G, 10 months ago

The initial answer to the question, What triggers DR200 and DR400 in Auto DR400? is:

Just like any application of DR above 100, you need a high contrast scene and/or highlights which will expose at or above +0.5EV to trigger either DR200 or DR400.

You also need Auto ISO400 to make it easy.  I was surprised at how well Auto ISO400 with Auto DR400 works.

If you don't have highlights which will  expose  at or above +0.5EV, the DR200 or DR400 function will not be triggered.

Here are examples, from the railway station again.

This is DR100, somewhat before DR200 is triggered:

As I pan to the right the amount of shade increases - this is the point just before the camera goes up one step (doubles) the ISO and thus selects DR200:

Pan just a fraction more to the right and the ISO doubles, which consequently triggers DR200. At DR100 the shutter speed would have dropped to 1/320.

Note that these changes in shutter speed occur because the light meter (set on Average) is setting itself for a darker image.  This also lifts the lowlights and triggers a call for DR200 as the highlights increase their level above 0EV (or at or above +0.5EV). To get DR200 the ISO has to double, which calls for half the shutter speed duration as before:

As we continue to pan to the right the amount of shadow increases, so the light meter calls for a slower shutter speed (still well above the limit of 1/125 which can be manually set as the Auto ISO changeover point).

This is just before DR400 is triggered to cope with the increasing highlight level at or above   +0.5EV, brought about by the slower shutter speed:

Note that the shutter speed, normalised to DR100, would be 1/250.

Now we pan just a fraction further to the right to invoke another ISO shift as DR400 is selected, to avoid clipping the DR200 image as the brightness (highlights) go even higher again.

Here is DR400 - note the shutter speed, normalised to DR100, would be 1/200:

Looking at the shutter speeds we can see that each step in DR is invoked as we pass through 1EV of exposure in 1/3 steps.

Or looking at it another way, as we increase the amount of shadow, the light metering triggers longer exposures and eventually an increase in DR adjustment to cope with the increased highlights which occur simultaneously.

Remember that DR in EXR cameras is software induced, like the examples above, when shooting in L size, or when ISO is higher  than DR in M size.

Note, too, that as DR and ISO increase, the overall "brightness of the image increases. However, if we were to lift the DR100 image so that the shadows were at the same level as in the DR400 image, then the noise in both images is exactly the same.

There is therefore no noise penalty in using DR400, but there is actually a loss of dynamic range as you increase ISO.

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alexisgreat
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Re: Using Auto DR400 - What Triggers DR200 and DR400?
In reply to Trevor G, 10 months ago

Thanks, from the way you reworded your original statement, I take it you amended it for the F/HS series which still take two different exposures for M size DR 400 ISO 400, but as soon as ISO goes over 400 they switch over to software DR enhancement?

Also, I wonder if AUTO DR 400 works the same way at M size (where ISO does not change to increase DR)..... in my tests with my camera I have found that AUTO DR needs rather extreme conditions to raise DR and so I keep my camera to DR 400 all the time.  Maybe that's because I use spot metering?  Another side effect I have found in my camera of using AUTO DR is that it raises ISO even at M size- except it wasn't raising it to 400- it was raising it to 1600! and this was in full sunshine! Maybe Fuji changed its implementation of Auto DR and fixed it, but I've always avoided that setting.

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