The Advantages of DR400 vs DR200 vs DR100 - High Contrast Scene

Started 11 months ago | Discussions
Elyharbour
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Re: The Advantages of DR400 vs DR200 vs DR100 - High Contrast Scene
In reply to Trevor G, 11 months ago

I've done quite some experimenting with this today. Sitting at home taking shots from my desk of a wall with a brightly lit window with sky / buildings / hills in the distance. The difference in what's viewable through the window is very clear with DR100 (virtually everything blown out white), DR200 (buildings and hills visible) and DR400 (detail in the sky appears as well). So yes it works!

Tried it with RAW. At first inspection in LR4.4 the files look the same (DR100 vs DR400). But when I pull the EV back -2 or leave this on 0EV and instead reduce the highlight slider down to near zero, the sky and other background details appear from the DR400 RAF files, but not the DR100 file. So something is being written to the RAW file and with careful use of the shadows and blacks I can get a reasonably good output.

Anyway, thanks to your advice, I think I know how to use this now 

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CAcreeks
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Good eye, Boris!
In reply to BorisK1, 11 months ago

BorisK1 wrote:

Trevor G says that EXR produces DR200 and DR400 differently: DR200 shoots a sub/frame for highlights at a half exposure, while DR400 does it at 1/4 exposure. But both of your DR200 and DR400 pictures look to be developed from the same RAW file (otherwise, the foam in the water would've moved between frames). What gives?

You are right - they were faked with the Curves tool and exiftool to change the Raw development field.

I would post some real ones, but frankly nobody cares about Fuji EXR any longer.

P.S. Why are you reading the Fuji Talk Forum?

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BorisK1
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Re: Good eye, Boris!
In reply to CAcreeks, 11 months ago

CAcreeks wrote:

BorisK1 wrote:

Trevor G says that EXR produces DR200 and DR400 differently: DR200 shoots a sub/frame for highlights at a half exposure, while DR400 does it at 1/4 exposure. But both of your DR200 and DR400 pictures look to be developed from the same RAW file (otherwise, the foam in the water would've moved between frames). What gives?

You are right - they were faked with the Curves tool and exiftool to change the Raw development field.

I would post some real ones, but frankly nobody cares about Fuji EXR any longer.

P.S. Why are you reading the Fuji Talk Forum?

I just came back from a hiking trip to the mountains, and my TG-1 really struggled with high contrast. I knew that ahead of time, and even considered getting an XF-1 - but didn't. In hindsight, it was a right call: The trip was tougher than I anticipated, and I needed a camera I knew reasonably well - or I would've come back with no pictures at all. (My DSLR stayed at home - I haven't touched it in over a year now).

The camera behaved well, except the built-in HDR was awful.  Olympus does it by taking multiple pictures in high ISO, and then averaging the result.  The processing takes a loong 5 seconds or so, and if there's any movement, it shows.  So it left me very much interested in Fuji's EXR.

Probably not the XF-1 though - its zoom ring calls for two-handed operation, and I did a lot of one-handed photography on that trip.  So I'll be watching for XF-2.

Still, HDR or no, I got some decent snaps of rocks and lakes:

Rocks

Lake

Another lake

More rocks

Rim fire

Lake

and the "magic" mode was fun:

Oooh, magic!

But the built-in HDR sucked:

In-camera HDR - horrible artifacts after 5 seconds of "busy"

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CAcreeks
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Beautiful shots!
In reply to BorisK1, 11 months ago

These are my favorites. You and the TG-1 did real well in this sun-soaked colorful scenes. The Rim Fire image is amazing! Looks like something a newspaper would want to print.

Yes, the HDR image is crapola. I really doubt that is effective in any camera except one mounted on tripod.

BorisK1 wrote:

Lake

Lake

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keenrw
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Re: The Advantages of DR400 vs DR200 vs DR100 - High Contrast Scene
In reply to Elyharbour, 11 months ago

Hi

Sorry to jump in but i have a HS50EXR , does it work along the same lines ? the reason is i have read that DR is broken on the HS50 .

Thanks

Rich

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Trevor G
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Re: The Advantages of DR400 vs DR200 vs DR100 - High Contrast Scene
In reply to Elyharbour, 11 months ago

Elyharbour wrote:

Anyway, thanks to your advice, I think I know how to use this now 

Great!  That's absolutely tremendous  that you took the time to experiment yourself.

Bear in mind that you can get the same saved highlights effect by shooting at -2EV and then lifting the image in PP.

However, shooting EXR, whether in software or hardware, seems like much more fun, and more intuitive (to me at least).

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Trevor G
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HS50EXR has "broken" EXR? Here is how to test...
In reply to keenrw, 11 months ago

keenrw wrote:

Hi

Sorry to jump in but i have a HS50EXR , does it work along the same lines ? the reason is i have read that DR is broken on the HS50 .

I haven't used an HS50EXR nor seen RAW images made available.  Who is claiming EXR hardware is broken?

You can test very easily for yourself or send me (dropbox) some suitable RAWs if you don't want to do it.

How To Test EXR Hardware:

1) Choose a high contrast daylight scene (see examples in this thread, especially the one where DR400 drops to DR200 and the DR100 according to how much highlight material is in view).

2) Expose in M size at DR400 and DR100 (if DR400 works, then DR200 will also - no need to shoot DR200 while testing)

2a) Also do some exposures in L size at DR100, and DR400 at some stage.

3)  Keep ISO less than (not equal to) DR to invoke hardware EXR

4)  Make ISO = DR for some images (always shoot DR100 and DR400 in the same sequence so you can compare)

4a)  Make ISO higher than DR for some images.

5)  Install RawDigger and open the first image.

Use Windows right click Preview to open the JPEG version

Use Silkypix/RFC (or any less competent RAW processing software that you like ) to open the RAW version.

6)  Depending on what mode you shot in, there will be a Frame selection box at the bottom of the RawDigger screen with a choice between Frame 1 and Frame 2 if EXR hardware was active.

If there is no difference between the 2 frames in exposure level then EXR hardware was not in use to produce a DR higher-than-100 shot.

I am not yet a RawDigger expert in that I have only viewed maybe 20 or 30 different exposures, and I certainly have questions about why some things occur.  But this is a primer to get you or anyone else going...

Note: If you can, shoot a moving object so that you can  also easily see the difference in speed between the two EXR frames.

Remember: EXR hardware is only used in M size (and RAWs are only available in PASM and Auto with X series EXR cameras) when DR is higher than ISO .

With HS and F series cameras RAW is also available in EXR Mode (that is, when EXR mode is set with the Mode switch).  I haven't yet looked at my F770 samples in RawDigger yet, but I know that there are differences in output between these and the X series cameras when using DR.

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prime
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Re: The Advantages of DR400 vs DR200 vs DR100 - High Contrast Scene
In reply to Elyharbour, 11 months ago

Elyharbour wrote:

having no experience of Fuji cameras until the past week, I don't understand the fundamental principles of Fuji DR100/200/400. I know what's it's trying to achieve, but how is it doing it? Please feel free to point me to where this is all explained if you can.

Here are some links:

Explanation by DPReview's Richard Butler(Trevor G calls this technique, deliberate underexposure plus alteration of the highlight end of the tone curve, "EXR processing" -- but Fujifilm does not -- because the current generation of CPU in all of the high-end Fujifilm cameras, both EXR cameras and non-EXR cameras, is called "EXR Processor II.")  Some Canon cameras perform the same software trick and call it "i-Contrast"; for some reason Canon does not call it "EXR processing," either.  

The same Richard Butler wrote a detailed explanation of EXR-specific dynamic range enhancement in his review of the first EXR product, the F200EXR, here:  How EXR achieves DR enhancement.  Here are Fujifilm's own explanations of EXR:  "What's EXR?" -and- "EXR Technology: Wide Dynamic Range".  Fujifilm EXR cameras -- that is, cameras with EXR sensors -- can use the software version of dynamic range enhancement technique on top of the EXR hardware dynamic range enhancement, whereas the X100, X-Pro1, X-E1, X-M1, and X20 cameras are limited to the software dynamic range enhancement technique.

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Trevor G
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Re: The Advantages of DR400 vs DR200 vs DR100 - High Contrast Scene
In reply to prime, 11 months ago

prime wrote:

Fujifilm EXR cameras -- that is, cameras with EXR sensors -- can use the software version of dynamic range enhancement technique on top of the EXR hardware dynamic range enhancement,

Only possible with the X series cameras in EXR mode (that is, the mode dial is turned to the EXR position) in positions DR800 and DR1600.  When I get time I'll examine our F series images.

There is a slight highlight benefit at DR800 but I found DR1600 to result in noticeably lower contrast images on a high contrast scene, which is not generally what most people want.

whereas the X100, X-Pro1, X-E1, X-M1, and X20 cameras are limited to the software dynamic range enhancement technique.

True.

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prime
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Re: The Advantages of DR400 vs DR200 vs DR100 - High Contrast Scene
In reply to Trevor G, 11 months ago

Trevor G wrote:

prime wrote:

Fujifilm EXR cameras -- that is, cameras with EXR sensors -- can use the software version of dynamic range enhancement technique on top of the EXR hardware dynamic range enhancement,

Only possible with the X series cameras in EXR mode (that is, the mode dial is turned to the EXR position) in positions DR800 and DR1600. When I get time I'll examine our F series images.

It works that way with the F70EXR.  I never have felt an itch for DR800, as (hardware) DR400 on the F70EXR was such a giant leap forward from the resolutely DR100-is-all-you-get of our previous F30, we basked in the improvement and asked for nothing more.

There is a slight highlight benefit at DR800 but I found DR1600 to result in noticeably lower contrast images on a high contrast scene, which is not generally what most people want.\

This very high contrast (and backlit) scene could not have been captured with a non-EXR small sensor camera; at DR400, I got the shadows and the highlights with the 1/2" sensor F70EXR.

The red glow is a reflection from the vinyl table covering, a portion of which can be seen at the lower right.

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alexisgreat
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Re: The Advantages of DR400 vs DR200 vs DR100 - High Contrast Scene
In reply to prime, 11 months ago

Wait, there seems to be some confusion here- based on Trev's other thread, it seems that at M size, ISO 400 and higher in the F, HS and X series, the camera only uses Software EXR at DR 400? What's going on at DR 800 AND 1600, is that all software EXR or a combo of software EXR and hardware EXR with the F, HS and X series, and if a combo of hardware and software EXR with all these cameras, is it only available at M size? What conditions have to be met for the camera to use both (if that ever happens)? M SIZE  DR 800 ISO 200 and M SIZE DR 1600 ISO 400 (minimum ISO to get the most DR- combined hardware and software?  Is this not available at L size?)  What settings need to be used to maximize the EXR sensor for the most possible dynamic range? (resolution, ISO, and DR)?

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Re: The Advantages of DR400 vs DR200 vs DR100 - High Contrast Scene
In reply to alexisgreat, 11 months ago

Also, do the benefits of more DR outweigh the disadvantages of this sensor (more noise at base and higher ISO, lower resolution?) I've heard it mentioned that conventional sensors resolve more detail than these sensors do.  While more DR can be gotten manually by taking consecutive images and combining them yourself, there is no way to get that extra resolution back (or is there?)  Also, how can one compare the expanded DR of EXR cameras vs the expanded DR of other manufacturers like Canon's i-Contrast?  Would that be a better sensor because it has the better resolution and ISO performance of a conventional sensor AND expanded DR?

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prime
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Re: The Advantages of DR400 vs DR200 vs DR100 - High Contrast Scene
In reply to alexisgreat, 11 months ago

alexisgreat wrote:

Wait, there seems to be some confusion here- based on Trev's other thread, it seems that at M size, ISO 400 and higher in the F, HS and X series, the camera only uses Software EXR at DR 400? What's going on at DR 800 AND 1600, is that all software EXR or a combo of software EXR and hardware EXR with the F, HS and X series, and if a combo of hardware and software EXR with all these cameras, is it only available at M size? What conditions have to be met for the camera to use both (if that ever happens)? M SIZE DR 800 ISO 200 and M SIZE DR 1600 ISO 400 (minimum ISO to get the most DR- combined hardware and software? Is this not available at L size?) What settings need to be used to maximize the EXR sensor for the most possible dynamic range? (resolution, ISO, and DR)?

Wow.  A lot of questions there.

In EXR cameras, DR800 and DR1600 are available only when the mode dial is set to EXR and DR Priority is set as the sub-mode.  In that case, the camera will force M size.  The "first" two stops (DR200 and DR400) of dynamic range enhancement will be done in EXR hardware, and the additional icing on the cake (DR800, DR1600, if selected) will come from the software trick.

With the mode dial set to P, A, S, or M, and size set to M, and depending on ISO setting, DR  can be set to DR400, and it will be all hardware, photsite-pairing, EXR enhancement.  (Most of my shooting with EXR cameras has been done with the camera set to M size, ISO Auto400, and DR400.)

With the mode dial set to P, A, S, or M, if the size is set to L, then the hardware photosite-pairing is turned off (disabled), and, although DR200 or DR400 can be set in some ISO settings, any DR enhancement will be accomplished by the software trick.

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Trevor G
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Re: The Advantages of DR400 vs DR200 vs DR100 - High Contrast Scene
In reply to alexisgreat, 11 months ago

alexisgreat wrote:

Wait, there seems to be some confusion here- based on Trev's other thread, it seems that at M size, ISO 400 and higher in the F, HS and X series, the camera only uses Software EXR at DR 400? What's going on at DR 800 AND 1600, is that all software EXR or a combo of software EXR and hardware EXR with the F, HS and X series, and if a combo of hardware and software EXR with all these cameras, is it only available at M size? What conditions have to be met for the camera to use both (if that ever happens)? M SIZE  DR 800 ISO 200 and M SIZE DR 1600 ISO 400 (minimum ISO to get the most DR- combined hardware and software?  Is this not available at L size?)

I'm sorry, I've spoken to the Mods and there is a limit to the number of questions which can be asked:

1) In one sentence

2) one paragraph and

3) one post.

Because you exceeded all three at once you will have to wait 20 minutes or more while I have a drink...or two.

No need - prime answered very capably.

What settings need to be used to maximize the EXR sensor for the most possible dynamic range? (resolution, ISO, and DR)?

In practice ISO100 and DR400 in M size are probably going to give you the most dynamic range that you can record under average circumstances.

In theory the answer could be different.

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prime
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Re: The Advantages of DR400 vs DR200 vs DR100 - High Contrast Scene
In reply to alexisgreat, 11 months ago

alexisgreat wrote:

Also, do the benefits of more DR outweigh the disadvantages of this sensor (more noise at base and higher ISO, lower resolution?) I've heard it mentioned that conventional sensors resolve more detail than these sensors do. While more DR can be gotten manually by taking consecutive images and combining them yourself, there is no way to get that extra resolution back (or is there?) Also, how can one compare the expanded DR of EXR cameras vs the expanded DR of other manufacturers like Canon's i-Contrast? Would that be a better sensor because it has the better resolution and ISO performance of a conventional sensor AND expanded DR?

Wow. More questions.

Fujifilm's 1/2" EXR sensors (there have been Super CCD and CMOS versions) have been excellent performers for their size, full stop. But, as is generally true, the smaller the sensor, the lower the ISO setting where noise becomes obtrusive.

The "resolve more resolution" phrase covers many subissues.

  • Unless you crop (or have to rotate the image a lot of degrees), you are unlikely to be able to display any resolution above about 6MP. Your monitor probably cannot process that many pixels independently, and your HD television certainly cannot; an 8"x10" print displays fewer than 6,000,000 pixels. More sensor pixels cannot create more resolution on your monitor, TV, or 8"x10" print.
  • Because of the unusual non-Bayer filter arrangement, the demosaicing process creates a different apparent resolution from an EXR sensor than other cameras create from a Bayer-filter sensor of the same size. EXR sensors have less apparent resolution of low-contrast green than Bayer-filter sensors do. If you want to show off individual blades of distant grass under cloudy skies, you probably want to be shooting with a camera that has a non-EXR sensor.
  • Canon's i-Contrast appears to be a dead ringer for the kind of DR enhancement that Fujiilm deployed in the Fujifilm S100fs of five years back, that Fujifilm used for the last part of the DR800 and DR1600 of EXR cameras, and uses in the X20 camera of 2013.
  • The hardware EXR preserves more recoverable data than the software noise shaping does.  Blown highlights cannot be recovered in PP if they are lost in the initial exposure.
  • Do you think that you will get better resolution on your screen than the image below with a sensor that has more pixels and less extensive dynamic range?

Shot at M size, ISO Auto400, DR400; please view at full size.

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alexisgreat
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Re: The Advantages of DR400 vs DR200 vs DR100 - High Contrast Scene
In reply to prime, 11 months ago

Wow, nice image! But now I have some more questions for you

Okay first of all, I work with 7.5x10 prints and supposedly these are 7 MP (300 ppi) or 10 mp (360 ppi) depending on which make printer you are using- I use the former. Does this mean that even if the resolution is that high, that one cannot distinguish extra resolution above 6 MP?

Also, and this is something I've always wondered- I have heard that 16 MP on the HS series cameras performs more like 6 MP on a non EXR sensor. So when we use M size DR 400, does that mean the camera resolves half that much detail- that is, performs like 3 MP on a non EXR sensor? I dont think this is true, but I'd like to know in terms of lines per height (which is a traditional way of measuring resolution) how much we lose when going from L size to M size.

Also, with regards to DR 800 and 1600, are these the only combined EXR modes and are they reserved for M size and ISO 200 and 400 and up respectively? I think they might only be for M size, but I am not sure if they have a minimum ISO limitation.

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alexisgreat
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Re: The Advantages of DR400 vs DR200 vs DR100 - High Contrast Scene
In reply to prime, 11 months ago

I think Trev said that in PASM with M size and ISO 400 or higher and DR 400 (or ISO 200 or higher and DR 200), we are using software EXR. Maybe he can elaborate.

If this is the case, even at M size and DR 400 we should try to keep our shutter speeds down to make sure we get ISO 320 or lower to make sure we are only using hardware EXR.  The big jump in noise at ISO 400, even at M size and DR 400, may be due to the camera using software EXR.

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Trevor G
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Re: The Advantages of DR400 vs DR200 vs DR100 - High Contrast Scene
In reply to alexisgreat, 11 months ago

alexisgreat wrote:

I think Trev said that in PASM with M size and ISO 400 or higher and DR 400 (or ISO 200 or higher and DR 200), we are using software EXR. Maybe he can elaborate.

No need to elaborate - that's what I said (or wrote).

If this is the case, even at M size and DR 400 we should try to keep our shutter speeds down to make sure we get ISO 320 or lower to make sure we are only using hardware EXR.  The big jump in noise at ISO 400, even at M size and DR 400, may be due to the camera using software EXR.

I don't think it works that way.  I never use or recommend Auto ISO and in this case, if you want M and DR400, you cannot use it.

Much better to set ISO manually and use aperture priority.

Auto ISO will probably work fine (it did in one recent test on the X20) if you don't mind having software DR.  I don't think that there is all that much difference in quality or noise.

There is no jump in noise at ISO400; ISO320 is noisy enough as it is!

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Re: The Advantages of DR400 vs DR200 vs DR100 - High Contrast Scene
In reply to Trevor G, 11 months ago

Wait, Trev, if Auto ISO chooses an ISO less than 400 at M size and DR 400, is hardware EXR still being used? The only reason I use AUTO ISO is because I can manually adjust ISO in 1/3 steps by changing the shutter speed. Manually adjusting ISO the "regular" way only lets you change it in full stops.

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Re: X10 vs X20
In reply to Trevor G, 11 months ago

Interesting tests on Techradar show that the X20 beats X10 in resolution but in terms of noise although the X20 is again better in SNR, the X10 bests it in RAW mode, the situation is opposite with DR, with the X10 better in JPG (except for high ISO) and the X20 better in RAW.

http://www.techradar.com/us/reviews/cameras-and-camcorders/cameras/compact-cameras/fuji-finepix-x10-1045190/review/4#articleContent

and

http://www.techradar.com/us/reviews/cameras-and-camcorders/cameras/compact-cameras/fuji-finepix-x10-1045190/review/5#articleContent

vs

http://www.techradar.com/us/reviews/cameras-and-camcorders/cameras/compact-cameras/fuji-x20-1122191/review/4#articleContent

and

http://www.techradar.com/us/reviews/cameras-and-camcorders/cameras/compact-cameras/fuji-x20-1122191/review/5#articleContent

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