8-bit vs 10-bit color - Anyone have hands-on experience with both?

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Michael Firstlight
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8-bit vs 10-bit color - Anyone have hands-on experience with both?
7 months ago

I have a stellar Dell 30" U3014 running in 2560x1600. It can support a full 10/30-bit pipeline. I am curious to hear from anyone that is actually running a 10/30-bit monitor in full 10/30-bit mode and would like to hear what you think (comparatively). Not seeking or interested in the opinions of those that haven't actually experienced a full 10/30-bit CS6 pipeline themselves.

If you are running a true 10/30-bit pipeline, what display & card combo did you choose?

Regards,
Mike

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Michael Firstlight
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Re: 8-bit vs 10-bit color - Anyone have hands-on experience with both?
In reply to Michael Firstlight, 7 months ago

No one?

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NewsyL
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Re: 8-bit vs 10-bit color - Anyone have hands-on experience with both?
In reply to Michael Firstlight, 7 months ago

Michael Firstlight wrote:

No one?

Few commentators maybe because of the Labour Day weekend holiday, and.... very very few users are truly using a 10bit system where they have a high end video card that supports 10bit.  You may find more over in the Retouching forum.

Btw... are you sure it is a "true" 10bit color depth or is it 8bit+AFRC to simulate a 10bit color depth?

Biggest differences you may see.... possibly smoother gradients in swathes of color like a sunset, better gray scale.

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theswede
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Re: 8-bit vs 10-bit color - Anyone have hands-on experience with both?
In reply to NewsyL, 7 months ago

NewsyL wrote:

Michael Firstlight wrote:

No one?

Few commentators maybe because of the Labour Day weekend holiday, and.... very very few users are truly using a 10bit system where they have a high end video card that supports 10bit.

There's a lot of pain involved in setting up and using a 10 bit system. I switched a Linux system of a colleague over to 10 bit on his insistence, and pretty much nothing worked as it should. GIMP worked fine, and could show and edit images, but the overall OS UI was unusable. In Windows 7, on his system, it wasn't possible to switch to 10 bit as it wasn't a Quadra card.

Btw... are you sure it is a "true" 10bit color depth or is it 8bit+AFRC to simulate a 10bit color depth?

The U3014 has true 10 bit input and rendering. I haven't seen any tests on how wide a gamut it can handle though. Tests seem to indicate it can do Adobe RGB rather completely, which would be nice to get in 10 bit (less gradients).

Biggest differences you may see.... possibly smoother gradients in swathes of color like a sunset, better gray scale.

Not in sRGB though. There the difference is almost undetectable no matter what. But in Adobe RGB or grayscale 10 bit is smoother (provided the grayscale image has more than 8 bits to begin with).

Jesper

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Pictus
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Re: 8-bit vs 10-bit color - Anyone have hands-on experience with both?
In reply to Michael Firstlight, 7 months ago

Better calibration and less banding/smoother gradation, easy to spot in the darker tones, I plan to buy a FirePro w5000 as soon my friend bring one from USA, the QUADRO is too overpriced.

BTW, Supr X uses 10 bit http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/40478923

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Michael Firstlight
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Re: 8-bit vs 10-bit color - Anyone have hands-on experience with both?
In reply to Pictus, 7 months ago

Thank you.

You all have confirmed what I thought. A combination of Photoshop CS6, Windows 7, and the 10-bit Dell U3014 monitor along with a card like the FirePro W5000 would yield a full 10-bit pipeline. I am even wondering if I'd need something like the W5000 or would a FirePro V3900 1GB be enough; that card is also 10-bit with display port and can support 2560x1600 for only $114 USD?  What more would the W5000 or even W7000 get me?

My understanding is that going from 8-bit to 30-bit doesn't expand the color gamut coverage, although I do edit RAW almost exclusively in ProPhoto for the wider gamut and stay in 16-bit edit mode as long as I can - and my big Epson 24" 7880 printer does a very good job maximizing what it can of the color range. However, I read somewhere that with an 8-bit pipeline there are only 256 gradations of any color available - not just grayscale and with 10-bit the gradations expand to 1024 shades each. I believe that the greater shading reduces banding in the shadows. So a calibrated 10-bit system can better choose a more exact shade rather than split the difference when the color is between shades - which leads me to an curious question: in 8-bit mode the values in PS CS6 range show between 0-255 (e.g., the 256 shades). With 10-bit fully enabled, do the values show as 0-1023 in the Photoshop interface?

Regards,
Mike

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Pictus
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Re: 8-bit vs 10-bit color - Anyone have hands-on experience with both?
In reply to Michael Firstlight, 7 months ago

Michael Firstlight wrote:

Thank you.

You all have confirmed what I thought. A combination of Photoshop CS6, Windows 7, and the 10-bit Dell U3014 monitor along with a card like the FirePro W5000 would yield a full 10-bit pipeline. I am even wondering if I'd need something like the W5000 or would a FirePro V3900 1GB be enough; that card is also 10-bit with display port and can support 2560x1600 for only $114 USD? What more would the W5000 or even W7000 get me?

Better get the V4900 for $140, but I want to do some 3D stuff and need 2GB RAM and play some games, so need to be the w5000.

(...)between shades - which leads me to an curious question: in 8-bit mode the values in PS CS6 range show between 0-255 (e.g., the 256 shades). With 10-bit fully enabled, do the values show as 0-1023 in the Photoshop interface?

No.

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Re: 8-bit vs 10-bit color - Anyone have hands-on experience with both?
In reply to Michael Firstlight, 7 months ago

I had a Dell U2713h for about two weeks. My card is a Quadro 2000 (1GB ram) and it didn't have any problem with 10bit mode. I tested the setup with a 10bit gray-scale psd file I had (in PS6) as well as with the NEC's exe file (made explicitly for testing 10bit mode). Both showed the difference between an 8-bit and a 10bit system. I didn't end up keeping the monitor. I will hopefully buy a U3014 near the end of the year or, if the upcoming Asus 39" 4K 10bit monitor is released on time, demonstrates good quality and is priced in $1000 range, that would be my choice (that's what rumors say).

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Michael Firstlight
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Re: 8-bit vs 10-bit color - Anyone have hands-on experience with both?
In reply to raminolta, 7 months ago

Wow, a 39" 4K monitor for around $1,000 - THAT would be a game-changer. I know the new 39" 4K panel is said to use vertical-alignment vs. IGZO on which the 31" is based, and tey say that could yield a less expensive monitor, but $1 - $1.5K?

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kelpdiver
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Re: 8-bit vs 10-bit color - Anyone have hands-on experience with both?
In reply to Michael Firstlight, 7 months ago

Michael Firstlight wrote:

Wow, a 39" 4K monitor for around $1,000 - THAT would be a game-changer. I know the new 39" 4K panel is said to use vertical-alignment vs. IGZO on which the 31" is based, and tey say that could yield a less expensive monitor, but $1 - $1.5K?

the 4k monitors are just 4 smaller 1920x1080 displays fitted together, which are being produced by the tens (hundreds?) of millions for HDTVs.  So on one end you have Sony selling a premium product at a very premium price, but others are doing it as cheaply as they can.

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theswede
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Re: 8-bit vs 10-bit color - Anyone have hands-on experience with both?
In reply to kelpdiver, 7 months ago

kelpdiver wrote:

Michael Firstlight wrote:

Wow, a 39" 4K monitor for around $1,000 - THAT would be a game-changer. I know the new 39" 4K panel is said to use vertical-alignment vs. IGZO on which the 31" is based, and tey say that could yield a less expensive monitor, but $1 - $1.5K?

the 4k monitors are just 4 smaller 1920x1080 displays fitted together

Except ... that is not how LCD manufacture works. Even a small increase in resolution reduces yield and increases costs vastly.

which are being produced by the tens (hundreds?) of millions for HDTVs.

Which provides no benefit at all to making 4K displays, since the 4K displays can not be made in the same machines. Smaller screens are made in high yield, cheap processes. Large and high density (like 4K) screens are made in (comparatively) low yield, using more expensive processes.

So on one end you have Sony selling a premium product at a very premium price, but others are doing it as cheaply as they can.

Sony are also "doing it" as cheaply as they can. Building consistent quality product is expensive until it breaks through multiple barriers. Small HDTV screens did that a few years ago. Large HDTV screens did so more recently. 2560x1440 screens did it even more recently, but those are still not of high, consistent quality at low prices, though they are getting there. 4K screens have not done so yet, and cheap screens (to the extent they even exist) are still low, uneven quality.

This is the same kind of problem that large AMOLED screens have. Low yield and more costly processes. Large AMOLED's can be bought, but scaling up production does not lower price much. The manufacturing process has to catch up first. At the same time smaller AMOLED screens are cheap and good, with high yield manufacturing process. If it was just a matter of slapping a bunch of screens together to make a larger one we'd all be using AMOLED TV's since many years now.

But of course, cheap and high yield 4K screens using presently working large screen methods will be here much sooner than AMOLED screens, unless an AMOLED breakthrough is just around the corner. But they're not here yet.

Jesper

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kelpdiver
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Re: 8-bit vs 10-bit color - Anyone have hands-on experience with both?
In reply to theswede, 7 months ago

theswede wrote:

kelpdiver wrote:

the 4k monitors are just 4 smaller 1920x1080 displays fitted together

Except ... that is not how LCD manufacture works. Even a small increase in resolution reduces yield and increases costs vastly.

This is exactly how it works, and why the 3840x2160 resolution is what we're seeing (not TRUE (TM) 4k), and why the 16:9 screens have been pushing out the 16:10 screens.   You're right - yields for a single piece 4k screen would be terrible.  That why they're using 4 of them from a well established line.  Otherwise, there's no way we could buy that Korean 4k TV for 1100 or 1200$.

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Chris Noble
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It's the exact opposite
In reply to kelpdiver, 7 months ago

kelpdiver wrote:

the 4k monitors are just 4 smaller 1920x1080 displays fitted together.

LCD panels are made from "mother glass" panels. These have been getting steadily bigger with each successive generation of production. Current "Gen 10" factories make 285 cm x 305 cm mother glass panels. TV and monitor panels are cut from these "mother glass" panels.

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theswede
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Re: 8-bit vs 10-bit color - Anyone have hands-on experience with both?
In reply to kelpdiver, 7 months ago

This is exactly how it works, and why the 3840x2160 resolution is what we're seeing (not TRUE (TM) 4k), and why the 16:9 screens have been pushing out the 16:10 screens. You're right - yields for a single piece 4k screen would be terrible. That why they're using 4 of them from a well established line. Otherwise, there's no way we could buy that Korean 4k TV for 1100 or 1200$.

Thanks for the warning. I'll be looking at the Sony instead then.

Jesper

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Chris Noble
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8-bit vs 10-bit color: what "pipeline"?
In reply to Michael Firstlight, 7 months ago

Michael Firstlight wrote:

I have a stellar Dell 30" U3014 running in 2560x1600. It can support a full 10/30-bit pipeline.

What do you mean by "full 10/30-bit pipeline"?. Your RAW image capture is 12-bit (usually), the PP is 16-bit (usually), JPEG output is 8-bit. TIFF output is 8-bit or 16-bit. That monitor is 10-bit, others are 6, 7 or 8-bit.

And we are talking bit depth, not accuracy. It is important to understand the difference if you are interested in digging into this topic.

I am curious to hear from anyone that is actually running a 10/30-bit monitor in full 10/30-bit mode.

Monitors don't "run in full 10/30-bit mode". They have a native bit depth (6, 7, 8 or 10 bits) that does not vary.

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digital ed
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Re: 8-bit vs 10-bit color - Anyone have hands-on experience with both?
In reply to Michael Firstlight, 7 months ago

Michael Firstlight wrote:

I have a stellar Dell 30" U3014 running in 2560x1600. It can support a full 10/30-bit pipeline. I am curious to hear from anyone that is actually running a 10/30-bit monitor in full 10/30-bit mode and would like to hear what you think (comparatively). Not seeking or interested in the opinions of those that haven't actually experienced a full 10/30-bit CS6 pipeline themselves.

If you are running a true 10/30-bit pipeline, what display & card combo did you choose?

Regards,
Mike

I have the ASUS PA279Q monitor which is 2560x1440 and 10 bit display. Current video card is 8 bit but does provide the 2560x1440 resolution. I really like the higher resolution for my photo and video editing.

I have a new video card coming Monday that will provide both the resolution and 10 bit display and am very anxious to see if I can see any difference using PSCC (don't know of any other program that is 10 bit capable). If I see anything that might be of interest I will post after a preliminary evaluation.

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Michael Firstlight
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Re: 8-bit vs 10-bit color: what "pipeline"?
In reply to Chris Noble, 7 months ago

I only used the notation of 10/30 as its it 10 bit, but is sometimes referred to as 30-bit (10-bit red, 10--bit-green, 10-bit blue) 10x3 = 30 that's all.

It is very common for many to refer to 10-bit as 30-bit color. For example, take this excerpt from an nVidea wen site:

"When using a supported Quadro card and a supported display, no special configuration is required to enable 30-bit color. The driver by default switches to 30-bit scan out when connected to a 30-bit capable supported monitor. Information on supported cards, displays, and operating systems is available at the link below.

On Windows Vista and Windows 7, this mode automatically disables Windows Aero regardless of whether a 30-bit application is running. If Aero must be enabled (therefore reverting to 24-bit color rendering), the NVIDIA Control Panel has a "Deep Color for 3D Applications" setting that can be set to “disable." This setting is available under Manage 3D Settings using the Program Settings Tab and the Base Profile in the Gloabl Presets pull-down menu."

So, please don't nitpick my 10/30 notation - I didn't make to post to invite one-upsmanship responses.

Regards,
Mike

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Michael Firstlight
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Re: 8-bit vs 10-bit color - Anyone have hands-on experience with both?
In reply to digital ed, 7 months ago

Thanks - will be very curious to hear your opinion what is and isn't noticeably different once you have the 10-bit enable.

Regards,
Mike

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Chris Noble
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Re: 8-bit vs 10-bit color: what "pipeline"?
In reply to Michael Firstlight, 7 months ago

Michael Firstlight wrote:

I only used the notation of 10/30 as its it 10 bit, but is sometimes referred to as 30-bit (10-bit red, 10--bit-green, 10-bit blue) 10x3 = 30 that's all.

It is very common for many to refer to 10-bit as 30-bit color. For example, take this excerpt from an nVidea wen site:

"When using a supported Quadro card and a supported display, no special configuration is required to enable 30-bit color. The driver by default switches to 30-bit scan out when connected to a 30-bit capable supported monitor. Information on supported cards, displays, and operating systems is available at the link below.

On Windows Vista and Windows 7, this mode automatically disables Windows Aero regardless of whether a 30-bit application is running. If Aero must be enabled (therefore reverting to 24-bit color rendering), the NVIDIA Control Panel has a "Deep Color for 3D Applications" setting that can be set to “disable." This setting is available under Manage 3D Settings using the Program Settings Tab and the Base Profile in the Gloabl Presets pull-down menu."

So, please don't nitpick my 10/30 notation - I didn't make to post to invite one-upsmanship responses.

Regards,
Mike

No one-upmanship, I did not understand your question about "pipeline". What "pipeline" are you referring to? Applications that display output files with 10 bits of color depth? What would be the purpose for photography, as every browser in the world displays 8-bit JPEGs?

The main purpose of 10-bit monitors is to increase the accuracy of the displayed image -- whatever its bit depth.

You need to distinguish between displaying a 10-bit image (again, how and why?) vs. displaying an 8-bit JPEG as accurately as possible.

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NewsyL
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Re: 8-bit vs 10-bit color: what "pipeline"?
In reply to Chris Noble, 7 months ago

Chris Noble wrote:

Michael Firstlight wrote:

I have a stellar Dell 30" U3014 running in 2560x1600. It can support a full 10/30-bit pipeline.

What do you mean by "full 10/30-bit pipeline"?. Your RAW image capture is 12-bit (usually), the PP is 16-bit (usually), JPEG output is 8-bit. TIFF output is 8-bit or 16-bit. That monitor is 10-bit, others are 6, 7 or 8-bit.

And we are talking bit depth, not accuracy. It is important to understand the difference if you are interested in digging into this topic.

I am curious to hear from anyone that is actually running a 10/30-bit monitor in full 10/30-bit mode.

Monitors don't "run in full 10/30-bit mode". They have a native bit depth (6, 7, 8 or 10 bits) that does not vary.

.

C'mon Chris.... you must know he is simply referring to using a standard 8bit as versus a 10 bit video card?

It does look like you are trolling a bit.

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