Let's be clear, the ONLY thing about E-M1 that matters is...

Started 11 months ago | Discussions
marike6
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Sensors are improving for both formats...
In reply to TrapperJohn, 11 months ago

TrapperJohn wrote:

At the low to mid ISO's, up to 3200, I don't see much difference between the EM5, the 5Dxxx the D800, 1Dx or Dx, at least by DPR's comparitive images. That's not true under all situations, the dpr image is a limited one, but the hard fact is: years ago, 5D vs E1 in the dpr images showed a big difference in IQ, whereas EM5 vs contemporary FF today using the same scene doesn't show much if any difference. Don't take my word for it - go look for yourself.

Using a relatively flat studio scene in artificial light as a comparison tool is fine for looking at acutance, high ISO noise, etc, but it doesn't even begin to tell the whole story.

Many like to talk about DxOMark tests on these forums, for high ISO, a camera like the D800 scores approximately 2900 ISO and the EM-5 around 800 ISO, so there is a substantial difference in low-light sensitivity. Not to mention that at base ISO 100 of the D800, files are clean and completely free of noise anywhere, shadows included.

But to take the Studio Scene discussion a bit farther, a side-by-side from the Olympus XZ-1 and the Olympus EM-5 at base ISO may look similar but nobody who has used both cameras will tell you that the two cameras have similar IQ. They do not. And as good as the EM-5 is, it does not have similar IQ to the D800. It's competitive to some of the APS-C offerings but does not fare well against the FFs.

I have a D800, a GH2, and I had an E-PL5 a few months ago (the closest you can get to an EM-5 without actually buying an EM-5), and I can tell you that aside from the obvious difference in resolution between the 36 mp D800 and the 16 mp Olympus (and the options for cropping 36 mp provides), the D800 is dramatically cleaner at every ISO. The DR is also better and colors are more true with the D800 (not a fan of the extremely warm color bias of the Olympus files but some like it).

DOF control, and isolating subjects is also significantly easier with the Nikon. And one reason I almost never use the 14-42 kit on the GH2 is that DOF is extremely deep with that lens and images can look flat if you are not careful. Lenses like the 20 f/1.7 or 25 f/1.4, two of my favorites, are almost a requirement for the kinds of images I enjoy.  Whereas on the D800 even a not-so-fast lens like my 70-200 f/4 VR provides terrific subject-to-background separation.

Anyway, sensors of all formats are improving at an equal pace, so I'm not sure you can say "the differences in IQ are not as obvious as they once were".

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jimoyer
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Re: Let's be clear, even if it does tracking well, it will not...
In reply to Jolly Oly, 11 months ago

Jolly Oly wrote:

marike6 wrote:

Jolly Oly wrote:

marike6 wrote:

If it does 4+ fps when AF is not locked on the first frame like the EM-5, it still will not compete with the 6D because the IQ is just not there. IQ will be very good, the 6D has great IQ, and excellent DOF control. As far as the D7100, considering the EM-1 shares the same sensor as the EM-5, IQ is competitive but falls short of the class leading D7100.

Correct me if I'm wrong, the new EM-1 only does PDAF with Olympus Four-Thirds lenses? With native m43 lenses, the EM-1 reverts to the same C-AF as the EM-5, no?

Whatever you are smoking must be really good stuff.

I don't smoke, but if anything I've written is incorrect, you could clue me in.

Comparing the performances of cameras with the one which is not even out yet is ridiculous, to say at least.

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One of the few posts in this entire thread that makes any sense at all.

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RealPancho
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Re: C-AF is not the only important thing...
In reply to peevee1, 11 months ago

peevee1 wrote:

daddyo wrote:

Focus tracking may be the most important thing for you,

I am talking about me,

When you say "let's," which is a contraction of "let US," you are not only talking about you. You're simply aping a catchphrase, as many people do, without understanding or paying attention to what it actually means.

I might suggest "The ONLY thing about the E-M1 that is important to me...." as a more suitable subject line.

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Frank

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RBFresno
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Out of focus images are not sharp//.
In reply to Pete Berry, 11 months ago

Pete Berry wrote:

...the extraordinary Oly 4/3 lenses this opens up to be used with a state-of-the-art m4/3 sensor.

How sharp are the images from those extraordinary Oly lenses with a moving subject, when the auto focus is not reliable?

Nikon D3 ,Nikkor 200mm f/2G IF-ED AF-S VR ,TC 14 E-II
1/500s f/2.8 at 280.0mm iso6400

RB

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RBFresno
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Aware that out of focus images are not sharp....
In reply to RBFresno, 11 months ago

RBFresno wrote:

Pete Berry wrote:

...the extraordinary Oly 4/3 lenses this opens up to be used with a state-of-the-art m4/3 sensor.

How sharp are the images from those extraordinary Oly lenses with a moving subject, when the auto focus is not reliable?

Nikon D3 ,Nikkor 200mm f/2G IF-ED AF-S VR ,TC 14 E-II
1/500s f/2.8 at 280.0mm iso6400

RB

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RBFresno
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Duplicate Post.. Sorrry! (can't delete!)
In reply to RBFresno, 11 months ago

RBFresno wrote:

RBFresno wrote:

Pete Berry wrote:

...the extraordinary Oly 4/3 lenses this opens up to be used with a state-of-the-art m4/3 sensor.

How sharp are the images from those extraordinary Oly lenses with a moving subject, when the auto focus is not reliable?

Nikon D3 ,Nikkor 200mm f/2G IF-ED AF-S VR ,TC 14 E-II
1/500s f/2.8 at 280.0mm iso6400

RB

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ptox
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My, you are excitable
In reply to peevee1, 11 months ago

ONLY, INSANE, RIDICULOUS

All for a camera.

You obviously care a lot, but the question is why?

(Bonus sub-question for the forum: why do so many other people appear to care that the OP cares too much? Not a day goes by without several new analogues of this exact thread. Aren't you all a bit tired by now?)

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wolfie
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Re: My, you are excitable- really?
In reply to ptox, 11 months ago

Welcome to the mad, mad world of dpreview forums!

[Now cue music .. final line of Welcome to the Hotel California ...]

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Shoot the Light fantastic

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wolfie
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Here's something that might cheer PeeVee
In reply to peevee1, 11 months ago

peevee1 wrote:

... its AF tracking speed.

If it can do reliable 9+ fps tracking with 90-20/2.8, it competes with $6,700 1Dx (+ $13K 200-400/4 1.4 Extender to replace that $6,000 90-250).

If it can only do 4 fps or not reliable, it competes with $1,500 6D or even cheaper 70D/D7100 (and loses to the latter for the sports, and there are other cameras like E-M5 which are perfectly good if you don't need sports).

To quote from latest 43rumors update:

"Another big advancement is during C-AF, hybrid AF will be engaged. Hybrid AF = Contrast AF + Phase Diff-AF being engaged at the same time. Under S-AF conditions, the camera will automatically use either Contrast-AF or Phase Diff-AF, depending on what lens is put on. Hybrid AF is engaged only in C-AF mode. (MY NOTE: I believe the author meant Phase Detection NOT Phase Difference)"

Given the success of the apparently similar dual system AF set up in the Nikon 1 series, Olympus may be able to deliver what your heart desires ...

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Shoot the Light fantastic

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Olymore
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Re: Err...what??
In reply to sderdiarian, 11 months ago

Some of us wanted a small version of an Ex camera and that is what we're getting. Similar to the OM series that were very rugged and used in hostile environments all over the world.

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Olymore
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Re: Sensors are improving for both formats...
In reply to marike6, 11 months ago

Sensors are improving equally for all formats but there is the concept of 'good enough'. For most photography enthusiasts now all the main systems provide sufficient IQ so why not go for the smaller and lighter system.
Cars are fast enough for most people now which is why most people don't choose a car because of it's top speed but other aspects like size, looks etc.If you're a racing driver you need the fastest car but most people do not.

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peevee1
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Re: Let's be clear, the best way to get hits on an OP
In reply to Jeff, 11 months ago

Jeff wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

Jeff wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

Olympus is doing so badly here in the States, they would really benefit from anybody it seems.

You have different opinion? Do you think somehow die hard 4/3 fans will be enough to sell many E-M1s when they were not enough to sell many E-5s or any other 4/3 cameras? Or somebody will choose just as slow and almost as big E-M1 over 6D/D7100/70D/k-30/NEX-6 and the rest of competition, if E-M1 is not significantly better in some respect? How? Why?

With due respect ... shouldn't we wait and see at least some actual specs before jumping 'just as slow' or 'almost as big' or 'not significantly better'?

A lot of specs are already pretty much known, and at least we can always take them as a base for speculation (including and first the insane $1500 price). Among the specs (and actually real performance, not just specs) which is not known I see the one which can determine whether or not the camera will be a success.

Does a system have to have a competitive advantage to survive? Of course.

Will the E-M1 display such a competitive advantage? We'll see. Oly did pretty well with the E-M5.

Sure, $1000 camera preorders on which started more than 18 months ago in a market without $600 NEX-6, $470 k-30, $800 X-E1 etc, with the closest competitor being $1400 NEX-7 lacking weather-sealing or fast AF or stabilization and with only 50/1.8 and $1100 24/1.8 being decent. Now is not then and the market is very different.

Must that competitive advantage by measure in fps? Depends on your needs.

What else is left at this price point, which competitors, say, 6D, or even $470 k-30, does not do better? Not just better, but $1000 better over that same k-30, not forgetting the disadvantages too? Surely not 1/8000 vs 1/6000 or WiFi.
It is not a rhetorical question - what else? And don't start about 4/3 lenses again, all competitors have lenses, some systems are bigger than m43 and 4/3.

OK, take the first camera on your list, the 6D.

The 6D kit with a 24-105/4 lens is priced $2,600 at B&H

6D body can be had for $1,500 new on ebay from bigvalue. Just like the rumored price

whereas the rumor site has the E-M1 w/12-40/2.8 kit at $2,200.

12-40 does not have the range of 24-105. And I am talking about that lens because neither its price no performance is known yet. So far we have Panasonic 12-35/2.8 at $1,300 and 6D can use Sigma 24-70/2.8 for $900. 1.5-2 stops difference after ISO adjustment - not even funny, and cheaper. Tamron 28-75/2.8 for those who like a little longer is $500 and 508g.

(Btw, the 6D is no 9fps monster).

Exactly. It is its weak point, and the only point E-M1 can attack at the same price. If not - it is dead meat.

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Jeff
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You're just being obtuse ...
In reply to peevee1, 11 months ago

peevee1 wrote:

Jeff wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

Jeff wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

Olympus is doing so badly here in the States, they would really benefit from anybody it seems.

You have different opinion? Do you think somehow die hard 4/3 fans will be enough to sell many E-M1s when they were not enough to sell many E-5s or any other 4/3 cameras? Or somebody will choose just as slow and almost as big E-M1 over 6D/D7100/70D/k-30/NEX-6 and the rest of competition, if E-M1 is not significantly better in some respect? How? Why?

With due respect ... shouldn't we wait and see at least some actual specs before jumping 'just as slow' or 'almost as big' or 'not significantly better'?

A lot of specs are already pretty much known, and at least we can always take them as a base for speculation (including and first the insane $1500 price). Among the specs (and actually real performance, not just specs) which is not known I see the one which can determine whether or not the camera will be a success.

Does a system have to have a competitive advantage to survive? Of course.

Will the E-M1 display such a competitive advantage? We'll see. Oly did pretty well with the E-M5.

Sure, $1000 camera preorders on which started more than 18 months ago in a market without $600 NEX-6, $470 k-30, $800 X-E1 etc, with the closest competitor being $1400 NEX-7 lacking weather-sealing or fast AF or stabilization and with only 50/1.8 and $1100 24/1.8 being decent. Now is not then and the market is very different.

Must that competitive advantage by measure in fps? Depends on your needs.

What else is left at this price point, which competitors, say, 6D, or even $470 k-30, does not do better? Not just better, but $1000 better over that same k-30, not forgetting the disadvantages too? Surely not 1/8000 vs 1/6000 or WiFi.
It is not a rhetorical question - what else? And don't start about 4/3 lenses again, all competitors have lenses, some systems are bigger than m43 and 4/3.

OK, take the first camera on your list, the 6D.

The 6D kit with a 24-105/4 lens is priced $2,600 at B&H

6D body can be had for $1,500 new on ebay from bigvalue. Just like the rumored price

whereas the rumor site has the E-M1 w/12-40/2.8 kit at $2,200.

12-40 does not have the range of 24-105. And I am talking about that lens because neither its price no performance is known yet. So far we have Panasonic 12-35/2.8 at $1,300 and 6D can use Sigma 24-70/2.8 for $900. 1.5-2 stops difference after ISO adjustment - not even funny, and cheaper. Tamron 28-75/2.8 for those who like a little longer is $500 and 508g.

(Btw, the 6D is no 9fps monster).

Exactly. It is its weak point, and the only point E-M1 can attack at the same price. If not - it is dead meat.

There's no point in pursuing this conversation.  You're choosing to color selective facts in light of a predetermined conclusion, and simply can't get it through your head that others may have different preferences than yours, and therefore reach conclusions different that yours.

Suppose we were talking about cars.  At one point in my life we had kids at home, a dog, and needed a vehicle to haul that all around to various youth sporting events.  A minivan was perfect for the job, we bought one and were very happy with it.  Now my wife and I are empty nesters, enjoying sailing and kayaking, need to tow boats.  So a compact SUV makes perfect sense. We couldn't care less about buying a minivan.  In each instance our decisions were based on needs and preferences.

So it is with cameras.  I prefer something smaller that I can put in a sling bag with excellent glass, couldn't care less about fps, and find after using a vf-4 now prefer an EVF to an OVF.   ymmv.

There are few absolutes in life.  And that's a good thing.

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peevee1
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Re: The difference isn't nearly as obvious as it once was
In reply to TrapperJohn, 11 months ago

TrapperJohn wrote:

ISO difference? E1 was noisy beyond ISO400, while 5D was clean to 800, cleanable at 3200. My EM5 is clean to 3200, cleanable at 6400. How many of us have a practical use for ISO57600? Not many.

I agree with everything except this one. Try to freeze the motion (1/1000-1/2000) under artificial light @f/5.6, and you are there just like that.

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peevee1
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Re: Let's be clear, the ONLY thing about E-M1 that matters is...
In reply to Jeff Tokayer, 11 months ago

Jeff Tokayer wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

Locking is easy. If it wonders, you probably are set on iAuto or face recognition. Smaller size is possible by magnifying the view and then back (see advises here on this forum).

You just proved to me that you have no clue of what you're talking about.

When setting a small box in the E-M5, it wanders all over the place with the press of the 4 way arrow.

"Wanders with a press"? It means it does not "wander", but you can move it if you want. "4 way arrow"? What it even means? You mean 4 directional buttons perhaps? If you do not want them to control focus point directly, disable it, and to control the focus point location you will have to press the left button, and other buttons will mean other, more useful things.

There's no way to lock it, and it has nothing to do with iAuto or face recognition.

It wanders by itself in face recognition and iAuto (because it uses face recognition by default). In other cases you control it - do not want it to change position, do not. Obviously, in C-AF+TR it tries to track focus too after acquiring it first on half-press or AF-L if so configured - tries badly, does not succeed very often unfortunately, making the whole feature pretty useless.

I am planning on getting the $1500 E-M1, regardless of the fact that it makes you jealous.

Sheesh, you are really small there.

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peevee1
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Re: Let's be clear, the best way to get hits on an OP
In reply to bofo777, 11 months ago

bofo777 wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

Must that competitive advantage by measure in fps? Depends on your needs.

What else is left at this price point, which competitors, say, 6D, or even $470 k-30, does not do better? Not just better, but $1000 better over that same k-30, not forgetting the disadvantages too? Surely not 1/8000 vs 1/6000 or WiFi.
It is not a rhetorical question - what else? And don't start about 4/3 lenses again, all competitors have lenses, some systems are bigger than m43 and 4/3.

Peevee--- if we all looked in the dictionary under "U" we might find your name under ULTIMATE PESSIMIST..... Come on have a little faith in the new Oly camera.....May all your daydreams come true.......Cheers John

Please come and give me that faith - so, what else?

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peevee1
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Re: C-AF is not the only important thing...
In reply to RealPancho, 11 months ago

RealPancho wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

daddyo wrote:

Focus tracking may be the most important thing for you,

I am talking about me,

When you say "let's," which is a contraction of "let US," you are not only talking about you.

Well, that is exactly what I intended to write. I cannot beleive I missed the essential NOT there.

You're simply aping a catchphrase, as many people do, without understanding or paying attention to what it actually means.

I might suggest "The ONLY thing about the E-M1 that is important to me...." as a more suitable subject line.

No, my point is it is the only thing that matters in terms of sales of the camera - not for me, because I do not have shares in Olympus.

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peevee1
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Re: You're just being obtuse ...
In reply to Jeff, 11 months ago

Jeff wrote:

Suppose we were talking about cars. At one point in my life we had kids at home, a dog, and needed a vehicle to haul that all around to various youth sporting events. A minivan was perfect for the job, we bought one and were very happy with it. Now my wife and I are empty nesters, enjoying sailing and kayaking, need to tow boats. So a compact SUV makes perfect sense. We couldn't care less about buying a minivan. In each instance our decisions were based on needs and preferences.

Great. Now imagine another compact SUV, just as good if not better, is available at 1/3 of the price. How the sales of YOUR compact SUV, without any feature distinguishing it from competition, would go? Sure, a few people would still buy it - brand loyalty, like how wheels look, whatever. But... too few.

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Jeff
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Re: You're just being obtuse ...
In reply to peevee1, 11 months ago

peevee1 wrote:

Jeff wrote:

Suppose we were talking about cars. At one point in my life we had kids at home, a dog, and needed a vehicle to haul that all around to various youth sporting events. A minivan was perfect for the job, we bought one and were very happy with it. Now my wife and I are empty nesters, enjoying sailing and kayaking, need to tow boats. So a compact SUV makes perfect sense. We couldn't care less about buying a minivan. In each instance our decisions were based on needs and preferences.

Great. Now imagine another compact SUV, just as good if not better, is available at 1/3 of the price. How the sales of YOUR compact SUV, without any feature distinguishing it from competition, would go? Sure, a few people would still buy it - brand loyalty, like how wheels look, whatever. But... too few.

You've entirely missed (or ignored) the point.

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DLBlack
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Re: Speak for yourself only, please...I don't care about AF tracking speed. NT
In reply to DLBlack, 11 months ago

Interesting, when facts like actual b&h prices are stated Peevee1 doesn't respond back. Anyhow, it just doesn't seem like Peevee1 likes the E-M5, especially its price.

Anyhow, I do hope the rumor price of the E-M1 does mean that it competes with the 7D at $1,495 and the D300s at $1,695 in performance. If it only competes in specs and handling with the D7100, 70D and K5ii then the E-M1 is about $200 to $300 over price. Only when the E-M1 is actually gets in the hands of testerrs and users do we know if the price of the E-M1 is a competitively price camera.

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