Let's be clear, the ONLY thing about E-M1 that matters is...

Started Aug 28, 2013 | Discussions
Alexis D
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Re: good fast S-AF with my Four Thirds (SLR) lenses is what I most hope for
In reply to BJL, Aug 28, 2013

BJL wrote:

Different people have different needs for PDAF: owners of Four Thirds SLR lenses like the 14-54, 50-200, 12-60 want them to function "normally" including AF: beyond that, high frame-rate tracking AF matters a lot to some, but little or at all to others like me.

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Smaller lenses, better in low light, more telephoto reach:
you can have any *two* at one time.

I have not yet used the AF tracking feature yet, not even to test to see if it works.  There more important things for me to do.

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Jon Stock
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Re: Let's be clear, the ONLY thing about E-M1 that matters is...
In reply to peevee1, Aug 29, 2013

peevee1 wrote:

Jon Stock wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

... its AF tracking speed.

If it can do reliable 9+ fps tracking with 90-20/2.8, it competes with $6,700 1Dx (+ $13K 200-400/4 1.4 Extender to replace that $6,000 90-250).

If it can only do 4 fps or not reliable, it competes with $1,500 6D or even cheaper 70D/D7100 (and loses to the latter for the sports, and there are other cameras like E-M5 which are perfectly good if you don't need sports).

This also depends on the AF motor inside the 90-250mm, 7-14mm, and the 35-100. None focus as fast as the 14-35mm f2 SWD.

The thing about tracking is that AF speed does not have to be lightning-fast, it is only has to be as fast as the fore-aft component of the speed of the object you are tracking, and at long distances (at which lenses like 90-250 are mostly used) this speed is very slow.

http://asia.olympus-imaging.com/products/dslr/lenses/14-35_20swd/

"Olympus's exclusive SWD-driven ultra-fast AF system, a mechanically interlocked manual focusing mechanism"

The 12-50mm SWD and 50-200mm SWD will also benefit fully from camera body AF upgrades. The 12-60mm and 50-200mm have always been a very sweet setup in terms of performance, size and cost. They will be a good pair of lenses for m4/3 users who are willing to carry such "large" lenses.

People who can carry large Olympus lenses upwards of $1,000 will only carry them if they are significantly cheaper than similar lenses for Canon and Nikon and Sony and Pentax. It is not like Oly exists in vacuum, and if it cannot offer something better than competitors or cheaper than competitors or both, they will fail. That is how market works.

Stores will carry the lenses that sell.

If the AF is good enough there may be a lot of built up demand from 4/3 owners who have been unwilling to put more money into a system that has been declared dead.

The question is how many m4/3rds owners will buy larger better quality lenses. Many come from large systems and have chosen to downsize for the smaller lenses. Some may be willing to carry one or two larger specialized lenses.

The SHG lenses will continue to be rare exotics.

Just like E-M1 at this price if it nor better for sports than $500 k-30.

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SHood
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Re: Let's be clear, the ONLY thing about E-M1 that matters is...
In reply to Jon Stock, Aug 29, 2013

Jon Stock wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

Jon Stock wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

... its AF tracking speed.

If it can do reliable 9+ fps tracking with 90-20/2.8, it competes with $6,700 1Dx (+ $13K 200-400/4 1.4 Extender to replace that $6,000 90-250).

If it can only do 4 fps or not reliable, it competes with $1,500 6D or even cheaper 70D/D7100 (and loses to the latter for the sports, and there are other cameras like E-M5 which are perfectly good if you don't need sports).

This also depends on the AF motor inside the 90-250mm, 7-14mm, and the 35-100. None focus as fast as the 14-35mm f2 SWD.

The thing about tracking is that AF speed does not have to be lightning-fast, it is only has to be as fast as the fore-aft component of the speed of the object you are tracking, and at long distances (at which lenses like 90-250 are mostly used) this speed is very slow.

http://asia.olympus-imaging.com/products/dslr/lenses/14-35_20swd/

"Olympus's exclusive SWD-driven ultra-fast AF system, a mechanically interlocked manual focusing mechanism"

The 12-50mm SWD and 50-200mm SWD will also benefit fully from camera body AF upgrades. The 12-60mm and 50-200mm have always been a very sweet setup in terms of performance, size and cost. They will be a good pair of lenses for m4/3 users who are willing to carry such "large" lenses.

People who can carry large Olympus lenses upwards of $1,000 will only carry them if they are significantly cheaper than similar lenses for Canon and Nikon and Sony and Pentax. It is not like Oly exists in vacuum, and if it cannot offer something better than competitors or cheaper than competitors or both, they will fail. That is how market works.

Stores will carry the lenses that sell.

If the AF is good enough there may be a lot of built up demand from 4/3 owners who have been unwilling to put more money into a system that has been declared dead.

The question is how many m4/3rds owners will buy larger better quality lenses. Many come from large systems and have chosen to downsize for the smaller lenses. Some may be willing to carry one or two larger specialized lenses.

The SHG lenses will continue to be rare exotics.

Just like E-M1 at this price if it nor better for sports than $500 k-30.

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I can only speak for myself. I came to m43 for a handheld solution for birds photography. While the 90-250 and 300 43 lenses are very nice lenses, they are over 3kg each and $6-7k and I would require a tripod to use them. I am more interested in seeing a new 300mm f4 from either Panasonic or Olympus that would cost and weight less than half of either of these two 43 lenses.

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Moti
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Yes, let's be clear...
In reply to peevee1, Aug 29, 2013

Do you know the full list of specs and functions of the EM-1? I guess not.  Did you try it out? Touched it? seen it? Of course not.

So what exactly is your point for arguing about a camera you don't know much about with people who may have different  needs and personal preferences than yours?  Arguing for the sake of arguing?  That is probably the only thing that is clear here.

Moti

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micksh6
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Re: Speak for yourself only, please...I don't care about AF tracking speed. NT
In reply to peevee1, Aug 29, 2013

peevee1 wrote:

David Kieltyka wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

And you still going to buy $1,500 E-M1 over now what, $800 E-M5? Why? And are YOU ALONE, or a few strange fellows like you, enough to pay for R&D of E-M1 then??

Hey, I do get that some folks are incapable of grasping that the universe doesn't end at the tips of their own noses.

-Dave-

So, you decided to resort to personal attack instead of arguing your position in civilized manner. Well, FU then.

Why should he be arguing his position? There many definite advantages of E-M1 over E-M5 even not considering AF tracking. These should be obvious because these are mostly inherited from E-P5 with added VF-4, weather-sealing and PDAF for 4/3 lenses:
1/8000s shutter, better EVF and LCD, much smaller AF box, better grip and ergonomics, 2x2 control wheels, IBIS with auto-panning mode, customizable mode dial, Wi-Fi remote control, fast fousing with 4/3 lenses, even it's S-AF, plus I'm sure there is more that I didn't list.

For instance, there are no cameras cheaper than $1000 (except for E-P5) that can do 9FPS shooting with 1/8000s mechanical shutter, even without AF tracking.

If somebody doesn't appreciate these improvements and calls people who are ready to pay for them "strange", he/she definitely falls into "incapable of grasping that the universe doesn't end at the tips of their own noses" group of people.

And it's not personal at all because such group can be quite large. It doesn't matter whether you as a person belong to this group.

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Steve_
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oh please
In reply to peevee1, Aug 29, 2013

Is this what the internet is for? To attempt to reduce cameras like an E-M1 or 1Dx to spec sheets and prices?

If you really think reliable 9fps tracking is going to happen, think again. Oly DSLRs like the E-5 are purely average in such pursuits, and reliable 9fps tracking is of another world. Most likely, some of those limits are inherent in the lenses.

Likewise, if you think that such an unlikely thing as 9fps tracking would somehow level the playing field compared to a 1Dx, you are delusional. Sensor area matters, regardless of how well the E-M5 bears its small-sensor cross.

I generally don't wast energy posting that a given thread is drivel, as true drivel is easily spotted. Guess I'll never totally stop doing things I shouldn't.

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Baba Ganoush
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Re: You obviously aren't aware of....
In reply to Pete Berry, Aug 29, 2013

Pete Berry wrote:

...the extraordinary Oly 4/3 lenses this opens up to be used with a state-of-the-art m4/3 sensor.

Who else has fixed f/2.0 zooms covering 28-70, and 70-100mm, that are of unparalled quality?

Well, Nikon doesn't have f/2.0 equivalents of those lenses but it does offer its own f/2.8 pro equivalents that are of superb quality.  And both the weights and prices of the equivalent lenses are comparable.  The Oly 35-100mm weighs 1650 g and costs US $2500; the Nikon 70-200mm weighs a little bit less at 1540 g and also costs a tiny bit less, US $2400.  The Oly 14-35mm weighs 900 g and costs  US $2300, while the Nikon 24-70mm weighs the same (900g) and costs significantly less, US$1900.  Of course, when you start carrying around behemoth lenses of that weight, you are now in DSLR territory and have sacrificed the basic MFT goals of SMALL and LIGHT.

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tjuster1
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Re: Let's be clear, the ONLY thing about E-M1 that matters is...
In reply to peevee1, Aug 29, 2013

peevee1 wrote:

... its AF tracking speed.

If it can do reliable 9+ fps tracking with 90-20/2.8, it competes with $6,700 1Dx (+ $13K 200-400/4 1.4 Extender to replace that $6,000 90-250).

If it can only do 4 fps or not reliable, it competes with $1,500 6D or even cheaper 70D/D7100 (and loses to the latter for the sports, and there are other cameras like E-M5 which are perfectly good if you don't need sports).

Man I despite threads that start with "Let's be clear . . . " as if OP is the definitive judge of what's important and we're stupid to make decision for ourselves.

Let me rephrase that: "Let's be clear, I despise threads that start with 'Let's be clear . . . ' "

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TrapperJohn
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Only thing that matters to you...
In reply to peevee1, Aug 29, 2013

What matters to me is speedy AF of my ZD lenses, including the large ones like the ZD 35-100.

1/8000 shutter matters to me.

A larger VF wouldn't be unwelcome.

Relocating the thumbwheels matters - I've never become comfortable with the EM5's layout, especially with the grip attached - too many wheels, too close together.

C-AF is way down my list of priorities. But, if the EM1 can do it, I sure won't complain.

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Jeff
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Re: C-AF is not the only important thing...
In reply to daddyo, Aug 29, 2013

daddyo wrote:

Focus tracking may be the most important thing for you, and it is important, but there are other important features -- including 4/3 lens focus speed and accuracy, along with better EVF, WiFi, the new battery grip, and the higher flash synch speed.

Remember that Olympus is attempting to lure more professional shooters and 4/3 lens owners into the Oly m4/3 camp with the E-M1, and the features (among others) I mentioned are likely to be just as important -- if not more so. Not to mention the 12-40mm and other fast lenses they are planning to release.

God Bless,

Greg

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Spot on. The only thing I'd add is that, speaking for myself, I'm looking forward to a body that can use *both* my mFT 75/1.8 *and* the FT 150/2 at their full capabilities.

To be able to use the best of both lens systems is a big win. I'm not expecting a 1Dx or D4 killer, but I do expect an E-5/E-M5 killer.

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Paul Amyes
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Re: Let's be clear, the ONLY thing about E-M1 that matters is...
In reply to peevee1, Aug 29, 2013

peevee1 wrote:

... its AF tracking speed.

If it can do reliable 9+ fps tracking with 90-20/2.8, it competes with $6,700 1Dx (+ $13K 200-400/4 1.4 Extender to replace that $6,000 90-250).

If it can only do 4 fps or not reliable, it competes with $1,500 6D or even cheaper 70D/D7100 (and loses to the latter for the sports, and there are other cameras like E-M5 which are perfectly good if you don't need sports).

This is one of those testosterone fuelled arguments like "my V8 is better than your V6". If AF tracking speed was important to me then I would have the 1Dx. But in in 30 odd years of shooting professionally it has never ever been something I am concerned about. Heck I didn't even use an AF camera until ten years ago. I'm more concerned about the haptics, exposure system, dynamic range, the flash system and how well video is implemented.

Also I choose not to get worked up about a camera that hasn't been released. The camera will be what it is and no amount of forum posturing will change that. Take a Bex and lie down.

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nzmacro
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Gees, assumptions
In reply to peevee1, Aug 29, 2013

peevee1 wrote:

David Kieltyka wrote:

-Dave-

And you still going to buy $1,500 E-M1 over now what, $800 E-M5? Why? And are YOU ALONE, or a few strange fellows like you, enough to pay for R&D of E-M1 then??

You sure like to make a lot of assumptions.

Hate to tell you but out of all the Oly users, the minority is here at DPR, not the majority. The cost of the EM1 might well be out of your range, cost is all relative. You do realise that in the Oly SLR forum here at DPR, a lot do use the expensive lenses, not what you use at all.

Funny I know, but some people actually can afford it and need it for what they take. To me personally the EM-5 does not appeal at all, the EM-1 does. Why ?? because it suits what I take. Cost, I certainly don't need to justify to you or anyone else.

I looked at the few shots you have in your gallery here at DPR, nice shots, but you simply do not have a need for the E-M1, its aimed at a totally different market and shooter altogether, you do not warrant it. But you need to get over that fact and just use what you want. My lenses each cost well above what I would ever spend on a camera, again that's not something you need, but a few of us do.

All the best and yep, use what you want, but don't knock those that need a different Oly to the EM-5. BTW, I use NEX, deep shock horror !!

Danny.

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marike6
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Re: Let's be clear, even if it does tracking well, it will not...
In reply to peevee1, Aug 29, 2013

peevee1 wrote:

... its AF tracking speed.

If it can do reliable 9+ fps tracking with 90-20/2.8, it competes with $6,700 1Dx (+ $13K 200-400/4 1.4 Extender to replace that $6,000 90-250).

Even if it can do 9+ fps with AF tracking, which seems highly unlikely considering the EM-5 only does 4+ fps with full AF, it still will not come close to competing with a pro FF DSLR like the 1DX because the IQ is just not at the same level of quality.

If it can only do 4 fps or not reliable, it competes with $1,500 6D or even cheaper 70D/D7100 (and loses to the latter for the sports, and there are other cameras like E-M5 which are perfectly good if you don't need sports).

If it does 4+ fps when AF is not locked on the first frame like the EM-5, it still will not compete with the 6D because the IQ is just not there.  IQ will be very good, the 6D has great IQ, and excellent DOF control.  As far as the D7100, considering the EM-1 shares the same sensor as the EM-5, IQ is competitive but falls short of the class leading D7100.

Correct me if I'm wrong, the new EM-1 only does PDAF with Olympus Four-Thirds lenses?  With native m43 lenses, the EM-1 reverts to the same C-AF as the EM-5, no?

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DLBlack
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Re: Speak for yourself only, please...I don't care about AF tracking speed. NT
In reply to peevee1, Aug 29, 2013

peevee1 wrote:

David Kieltyka wrote:

-Dave-

And you still going to buy $1,500 E-M1 over now what, $800 E-M5? Why? And are YOU ALONE, or a few strange fellows like you, enough to pay for R&D of E-M1 then??

I have an E-M5 and no FT lenses yet I am on my local camera store for the E-M1.  The reasons are the built-in grip, the built-in VF4, the extra direct control buttons, the 1/8000 shutter speed, and full wifi control.  So far the more I find out about the E-M1 the more I like it.  I love my E-M5 and plan on keeping it and moving it status to back-up camera.  Now I sneak my wife's camera out for a back-up camera.  From the rumor features the E-M1 looks to be an excellent price and compair really well to the aps-c "pro-level" cameras like the 7D, D300s, or K5ii.

If the E-M1 is not the camera for you and you like the E-M5 then get the E-M5.  It is an excellent camera.

Only time will tell if the E-M1 will become a good enough seller to make a profit for Olympus.  Before the E-M5 reaced the market the talk on this forum is that it was too large and too expensive, yet it became a best seller for Olympus.

Dave

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peevee1
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Re: Let's be clear, the ONLY thing about E-M1 that matters is...
In reply to Olymore, Aug 29, 2013

Olymore wrote:

Quite frankly, I couldn't care less about tracking or C-AF.

I have in the past taken wildlife photographs and I have never used C-AF, though owning four thirds dSLRs may at least have contributed to that.
I do care, as mentioned above, that S-AF does not hunt and and possibly damage my four thirds lenses as the focus moves back and forth.

So you are one of the few 4/3 lens owners who could not keep 4/3 system going. Neither you alone can this camera going.

I also care about the higher level of weather sealing this camera should have

Higher than what, E-M5, GH3, k-30/k-50/K-5 are already weather-sealed at much more reasonable prices, 3 times lower in the case of k-30.

and the much larger and better quality viewfinder.

Many cameras have it already. Not that much larger is promised or rumored, only higher resolution.

Finally, as I don't have a grip for my E-M5, I'm hopeful that my four thirds lenses will handle better on this camera.

Tracking and C-AF will be important for some people but I suspect it will be a fairly small percentage of the people that will buy it.

If not, why spend $1,500? There are MUCH cheaper alternatives.

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peevee1
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Re: Let's be clear, the ONLY thing about E-M1 that matters is...
In reply to brunobarolo, Aug 29, 2013

brunobarolo wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

... its AF tracking speed.

Completely right! For anything else my EM5 is sufficient. (Well, even my G1 focused fast enough for static objects.)

If it can do reliable 9+ fps tracking with 90-20/2.8, it competes with $6,700 1Dx (+ $13K 200-400/4 1.4 Extender to replace that $6,000 90-250).

If it can only do 4 fps or not reliable, it competes with $1,500 6D or even cheaper 70D/D7100 (and loses to the latter for the sports, and there are other cameras like E-M5 which are perfectly good if you don't need sports).

Even if it can reliably autofocus 9fps tracking with the 90-250, it would still compete to a €1,000 Nikon D7100 + €3,000 Sigma 120-300mm f2.8.

Right.

The D7100 does 7fps with 15mp in 4/3 sensor mode with the excellent D4 AF hardware, and in my own experience that works very well for sports.

Well, 7 fps cropped (which of course lowers resolution) or 6 fps full frame is still not 9 (or better yet 10). But it is a competition, and that is why $1,500 cost in uncompetitive unless E-M1 can significantly beat that.

From what I can read and see, the new Sigma 120-300 seems to be great value for money. Sharp optics, fast AF. (I have not yet tried one myself.)

So you don't know how fast it can actually focus?

IAC, it's not an easy market where the EM1 will have to compete. I sincerely hope it succeeds!

Be it more reasonably priced, say at $800 for a kit, it would have competed with much less tough crowd (NEX-6 etc), and could have sold well even without 10 fps tracking. At $1,500, it is no more than a niche the size of E-5 replacement market or less even if it focuses 4/3 lenses as fast as E-5.

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peevee1
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Re: Let's be clear, the ONLY thing about E-M1 that matters is...
In reply to jkrumm, Aug 29, 2013

jkrumm wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

The square size issue was solved a year ago in E-PM2 and E-PL5 and could have been easily added to E-M5 with firmware update. Smaller square obtained by magnification though is as small as it gets, how much smaller do you really need? If you think that DSLRs have PDAF sensors as small as indicated by the squares in the viewfinder, you are wrong too - they would not work reliably or quickly in low light (just like dedicated PDAF pixels in Nikon 1/NEX-5r/Canon t4i do not - exactly because they are too small and thus signal from them in low light has to have either extremely low readout/high exposure time, or be very noisy).

My wife has the EPM2, and while I agree the square option is improved, it's still not the same as using pdaf on my E5. And unfortunately it still can't focus my 50-200 well, so I can't test it where it would be most useful. Anyway, I'm unsure why we disagree here. For 4/3 users, i

Because there are not enough 4/3 users willing to pay $1,500 for a non-competitive performance, otherwise the system would not die.

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JulesGo
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Re: Let's be clear, the ONLY thing about E-M1 that matters is...
In reply to peevee1, Aug 29, 2013

Interesting thread !   I got an EM-5 coming from a Canon DSLR mainly because of weight and size.  The EM-5 is fine but, in order to upgrade, I would need these 4 must-have:

  1. A reliable AF-tracking system
  2. A focusing scheme different from the focus squares that wander all around the EVF.  I need to be able to set a small focus point that I can LOCK in place and that will stay there, no matter what.
  3. WiFi
  4. The camera must stay small and light.  A little bit bigger is ok but not by much.  It must at least be smaller than the GH3.  A good grip would be a plus.
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CharlesB58
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Re: Let's be clear, the best way to get hits on an OP
In reply to peevee1, Aug 29, 2013

Is to use a title that is provocative and generalized, THEN say "I am just talking about my personal needs".

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DLBlack
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Re: Let's be clear, the ONLY thing about E-M1 that matters is...
In reply to peevee1, Aug 29, 2013

And the Samsung Galaxy NX is listed at $1,599 USD.

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