Let's be clear, the ONLY thing about E-M1 that matters is...

Started Aug 28, 2013 | Discussions
BJL
BJL
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good fast S-AF with my Four Thirds (SLR) lenses is what I most hope for
In reply to peevee1, Aug 28, 2013

Different people have different needs for PDAF: owners of Four Thirds SLR lenses like the 14-54, 50-200, 12-60 want them to function "normally" including AF: beyond that, high frame-rate tracking AF matters a lot to some, but little or at all to others like me.

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Smaller lenses, better in low light, more telephoto reach:
you can have any *two* at one time.

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peevee1
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Re: Let's be clear, the ONLY thing about E-M1 that matters is...
In reply to Jon Stock, Aug 28, 2013

Jon Stock wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

... its AF tracking speed.

If it can do reliable 9+ fps tracking with 90-20/2.8, it competes with $6,700 1Dx (+ $13K 200-400/4 1.4 Extender to replace that $6,000 90-250).

If it can only do 4 fps or not reliable, it competes with $1,500 6D or even cheaper 70D/D7100 (and loses to the latter for the sports, and there are other cameras like E-M5 which are perfectly good if you don't need sports).

This also depends on the AF motor inside the 90-250mm, 7-14mm, and the 35-100. None focus as fast as the 14-35mm f2 SWD.

The thing about tracking is that AF speed does not have to be lightning-fast, it is only has to be as fast as the fore-aft component of the speed of the object you are tracking, and at long distances (at which lenses like 90-250 are mostly used) this speed is very slow.

http://asia.olympus-imaging.com/products/dslr/lenses/14-35_20swd/

"Olympus's exclusive SWD-driven ultra-fast AF system, a mechanically interlocked manual focusing mechanism"

The 12-50mm SWD and 50-200mm SWD will also benefit fully from camera body AF upgrades. The 12-60mm and 50-200mm have always been a very sweet setup in terms of performance, size and cost. They will be a good pair of lenses for m4/3 users who are willing to carry such "large" lenses.

People who can carry large Olympus lenses upwards of $1,000 will only carry them if they are significantly cheaper than similar lenses for Canon and Nikon and Sony and Pentax. It is not like Oly exists in vacuum, and if it cannot offer something better than competitors or cheaper than competitors or both, they will fail. That is how market works.

The SHG lenses will continue to be rare exotics.

Just like E-M1 at this price if it nor better for sports than $500 k-30.

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Jolly Oly
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Re: Speak for yourself only, please...I don't care about AF tracking speed. NT
In reply to peevee1, Aug 28, 2013

peevee1 wrote:

David Kieltyka wrote:

-Dave-

And you still going to buy $1,500 E-M1 over now what, $800 E-M5? Why? And are YOU ALONE, or a few strange fellows like you, enough to pay for R&D of E-M1 then??

don't get it what AF tracking - which I almost never needed, had to do with 43 lens compatibility - with whom I had serious problems to focus correctly PDAF ZD 50-200 on my CDAF EM5. So I guess if I decide to buy EM1 and 50-200 again (exceptional lens but I doubt that) without any need for tracking I could also fall into that few strange fellows group..

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peevee1
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Re: More complex than that ...
In reply to Jeff, Aug 28, 2013

Jeff wrote:

Perhaps I'm reading the rumors wrong, but isn't the idea of the E-M1 to include PDAF in addition to CDAF? If so, it seems plausible that the older 43 lenses would be focused PDAF style, or perhaps with some new hybrid algorithm. Just hitting E-5 speed would seem like a big win for Oly for a lot of applications.

No it would not - E-5 was not competitive then (the proof is obvious - it did not sell), and competitors moved on, so it is even less competitive now.

Just matching your own 3-y/o failure at the same price bracket will simply guarantee another failure.

Think about it.

If you don't leapfrog competition with every release, you die, either slowly if you have a very strong brand like Canon, or quickly if you don't.

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peevee1
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Re: Nah! Built in flash is the key! Or maybe its nice looks. :)
In reply to Hen3ry, Aug 28, 2013

Hen3ry wrote:

And being small and compact.

It is neither really. Especially not with 90-250/2.8 (or any 4/3 lens for that matter except the most useless like 25/2.8).

There are plenty which are MORE small and compact, and plenty which are about the same - and cost 3 times less.

It sure looks the business, you have to admit.

Looks alone will not carry it at this price point.

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G1Houston
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Re: Let's be clear, the ONLY thing about E-M1 that matters is...
In reply to jkrumm, Aug 28, 2013

jkrumm wrote:

Tracking speed has never been important to me with my E5 because it has always been not so great at tracking, so I don't rely on it. I won't be bummed if the EM1 is about the same for

This is the same reason that I worry whether the AF-tracking on the E-M1 will be competitive against Nikon and Canon.  If not, at the end, this feature will only benefit people who already own 4/3 lenses and wish to still use these larger/heavier lenses.  How many non-4/3 users would want to buy these much larger and heavier lenses to be used with a m4/3 camera?  I thus think that this feature at the moment has limited appeal to most camera shoppers.

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peevee1
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Re: You obviously aren't aware of....
In reply to Pete Berry, Aug 28, 2013

Pete Berry wrote:

...the extraordinary Oly 4/3 lenses this opens up to be used with a state-of-the-art m4/3 sensor.

Right, I am not aware about them because I talked about them right in my post.

Who else has fixed f/2.0 zooms covering 28-70, and 70-100mm, that are of unparalled quality? A

I have news for you - if you don't care about AF speed/tracking, you can use them right now, not waiting for $1,500 E-M1, even on, mmm, $199 GX1.

hand-holdable 300mm/2.0 equivalent amont the world's few almost perfect lenses?

$2,500 lens. Which, if you don't care about 9fps+ tracking, can be replaced by $769 200mm/2.8L on $1,500 6D with 1.4x teleconverter. Or $1,200 Pentax 200mm/2.8 on $500 k-30 even without teleconverter. Or easily bested by $1,350 300mm/f4 on 6D even without teleconverter. And they all will be lighter too. Now add 9fps+, and the only competition are big and expensive 1Dx and D4.

A 600mm/2.8 that doesn't need wheels?

You mean 300/2.8? $7,000 lens. Can be replaced by $6,300 Canon 400mm f/4 DO on D6 with 1.4x teleconverter. And frankly, this one does not make much sense at this price in light of much more versatile 90-250/2.8 for $6,000. Need extra 50mm - crop just a tiny bit.

Or the more mundane, but still quite excellent 24-120mm/2.8-4.0,

This one would be better release in native m43 mount, it would be smaller and cheaper and everybody asked for it for the last 4 years, instead they released slow 12-50 and prepare shortish 12-40.

or the 100-400mm/2.8-3.5 that's an excellent 800mm/7.1 with the EC-20 2X extender?

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David Kieltyka
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Re: Speak for yourself only, please...I don't care about AF tracking speed. NT
In reply to peevee1, Aug 28, 2013

peevee1 wrote:

And you still going to buy $1,500 E-M1 over now what, $800 E-M5? Why? And are YOU ALONE, or a few strange fellows like you, enough to pay for R&D of E-M1 then??

Hey, I do get that some folks are incapable of grasping that the universe doesn't end at the tips of their own noses.

-Dave-

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peevee1
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Re: good fast S-AF with my Four Thirds (SLR) lenses is what I most hope for
In reply to BJL, Aug 28, 2013

BJL wrote:

Different people have different needs for PDAF: owners of Four Thirds SLR lenses like the 14-54, 50-200, 12-60 want them to function "normally" including AF: beyond that, high frame-rate tracking AF matters a lot to some, but little or at all to others like me.

Sure. But if it does not matter, there are other, cheaper and/or cameras for you. If E-M1 does not provide it, it looks just a slightly improved revision of E-M5, $999 (now $800) camera, a competitor to GX7, $999 camera, or even Pentax k-30, $500 camera, and not a whole different class of camera the rumored $1,500 price suggests.

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peevee1
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Re: Speak for yourself only, please...I don't care about AF tracking speed. NT
In reply to Jolly Oly, Aug 28, 2013

Jolly Oly wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

David Kieltyka wrote:

-Dave-

And you still going to buy $1,500 E-M1 over now what, $800 E-M5? Why? And are YOU ALONE, or a few strange fellows like you, enough to pay for R&D of E-M1 then??

don't get it what AF tracking - which I almost never needed, had to do with 43 lens compatibility - with whom I had serious problems to focus correctly PDAF ZD 50-200 on my CDAF EM5. So I guess if I decide to buy EM1 and 50-200 again (exceptional lens but I doubt that) without any need for tracking I could also fall into that few strange fellows group..

IF you decide - but you doubt that, exactly because it would be a strange decision and waste of money, it would be more expensive and not any better or smaller than many other alternatives.

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jkrumm
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Re: Let's be clear, the ONLY thing about E-M1 that matters is...
In reply to peevee1, Aug 28, 2013

I have an OMD and I do not have precise S-AF with it. It has a largish focus square, and the 14x magnify square isn't much better. The focus is fast with some lenses, and accurate if you know what exactly it is focusing on, but that's it. My E5 is far more precise. That's why I look forward to the EM1, to gain 4/3 lens precision and speed on a new body, and hopefully to gain real precision on m43 lenses.

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peevee1
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Re: Speak for yourself only, please...I don't care about AF tracking speed. NT
In reply to David Kieltyka, Aug 28, 2013

David Kieltyka wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

And you still going to buy $1,500 E-M1 over now what, $800 E-M5? Why? And are YOU ALONE, or a few strange fellows like you, enough to pay for R&D of E-M1 then??

Hey, I do get that some folks are incapable of grasping that the universe doesn't end at the tips of their own noses.

-Dave-

So, you decided to resort to personal attack instead of arguing your position in civilized manner. Well, FU then.

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jkrumm
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Re: Let's be clear, the ONLY thing about E-M1 that matters is...
In reply to G1Houston, Aug 28, 2013

We'll see. When I say "tracking" I only mean really good tracking. I have no problem getting bird shots, birds in flight, dogs running and so on and sometimes C-AF is useful for that. But C-AF is far from perfect.

If I'm able to get shots like these with the EM1 and 4/3 lenses I'll be very happy...

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peevee1
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Re: Let's be clear, the ONLY thing about E-M1 that matters is...
In reply to jkrumm, Aug 28, 2013

jkrumm wrote:

I have an OMD and I do not have precise S-AF with it. It has a largish focus square, and the 14x magnify square isn't much better. The focus is fast with some lenses, and accurate if you know what exactly it is focusing on, but that's it. My E5 is far more precise. That's why I look forward to the EM1, to gain 4/3 lens precision and speed on a new body, and hopefully to gain real precision on m43 lenses.

The square size issue was solved a year ago in E-PM2 and E-PL5 and could have been easily added to E-M5 with firmware update. Smaller square obtained by magnification though is as small as it gets, how much smaller do you really need? If you think that DSLRs have PDAF sensors as small as indicated by the squares in the viewfinder, you are wrong too - they would not work reliably or quickly in low light (just like dedicated PDAF pixels in Nikon 1/NEX-5r/Canon t4i do not - exactly because they are too small and thus signal from them in low light has to have either extremely low readout/high exposure time, or be very noisy).

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Olymore
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Re: Let's be clear, the ONLY thing about E-M1 that matters is...
In reply to peevee1, Aug 28, 2013

Quite frankly, I couldn't care less about tracking or C-AF.

I have in the past taken wildlife photographs and I have never used C-AF, though owning four thirds dSLRs may at least have contributed to that.
I do care, as mentioned above, that S-AF does not hunt and and possibly damage my four thirds lenses as the focus moves back and forth.

I also care about the higher level of weather sealing this camera should have and the much larger and better quality viewfinder. Finally, as I don't have a grip for my E-M5,  I'm hopeful that my four thirds lenses will handle better on this camera.

Tracking and C-AF will be important for some people but I suspect it will be a fairly small percentage of the people that will buy it.

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Jolly Oly
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Re: Speak for yourself only, please...I don't care about AF tracking speed. NT
In reply to peevee1, Aug 28, 2013

peevee1 wrote:

Jolly Oly wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

David Kieltyka wrote:

-Dave-

And you still going to buy $1,500 E-M1 over now what, $800 E-M5? Why? And are YOU ALONE, or a few strange fellows like you, enough to pay for R&D of E-M1 then??

don't get it what AF tracking - which I almost never needed, had to do with 43 lens compatibility - with whom I had serious problems to focus correctly PDAF ZD 50-200 on my CDAF EM5. So I guess if I decide to buy EM1 and 50-200 again (exceptional lens but I doubt that) without any need for tracking I could also fall into that few strange fellows group..

IF you decide - but you doubt that, exactly because it would be a strange decision and waste of money, it would be more expensive and not any better or smaller than many other alternatives.

You simply cannot put ZD 50-200 and waste of money in the same sentence, trust me on that. And you are wrong, right now in m43 world there is nothing like it.

Take a look at this and then imagine 50-200 in combination with EM1.. my oh my..

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/39575413

It would be strange decision only because of this:

http://www.43rumors.com/ft5-new-40-150mm-f2-8-lens-to-come-in-2014/

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brunobarolo
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Re: Let's be clear, the ONLY thing about E-M1 that matters is...
In reply to peevee1, Aug 28, 2013

peevee1 wrote:

... its AF tracking speed.

Completely right! For anything else my EM5 is sufficient. (Well, even my G1 focused fast enough for static objects.)

If it can do reliable 9+ fps tracking with 90-20/2.8, it competes with $6,700 1Dx (+ $13K 200-400/4 1.4 Extender to replace that $6,000 90-250).

If it can only do 4 fps or not reliable, it competes with $1,500 6D or even cheaper 70D/D7100 (and loses to the latter for the sports, and there are other cameras like E-M5 which are perfectly good if you don't need sports).

Even if it can reliably autofocus 9fps tracking with the 90-250, it would still compete to a €1,000 Nikon D7100 + €3,000 Sigma 120-300mm f2.8.

The D7100 does 7fps with 15mp in 4/3 sensor mode with the excellent D4 AF hardware, and in my own experience that works very well for sports.

From what I can read and see, the new Sigma 120-300 seems to be great value for money. Sharp optics, fast AF. (I have not yet tried one myself.)

IAC, it's not an easy market where the EM1 will have to compete. I sincerely hope it succeeds!

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Optical1
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Re: More complex than that ...
In reply to s_grins, Aug 28, 2013

s_grins wrote:

Jeff wrote:

s_grins wrote:

Jeff wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

... its AF tracking speed.

If it can do reliable 9+ fps tracking with 90-20/2.8, it competes with $6,700 1Dx (+ $13K 200-400/4 1.4 Extender to replace that $6,000 90-250).

If it can only do 4 fps or not reliable, it competes with $1,500 6D or even cheaper 70D/D7100 (and loses to the latter for the sports, and there are other cameras like E-M5 which are perfectly good if you don't need sports).

That would be great, but it's not the only thing that matters.

If the rumor sites are to be believed, then the E-M1 looks like a big deal for Oly. If the legacy glass does in fact focus as quickly as mFT, then in one fell swoop Oly has added a whole range of glass to their camera lineup. They can make a strong case for offering a modern, forward looking system meeting a wide range of customer needs that includes working pros.

Being widely perceived as a viable system for wedding, PJ, commercial, and event photographers would be a big win for Oly. They don't need to replace D4's on the side lines of NFL games to have a hit on their hands.

Jeff, I can't agree.

All other mixed AF cameras, - Nikon 1 and recent Canon, do not combine PDAF and CDAD. They use either one at the time. I think that older 43 lenses would not work with CDAF.

Perhaps I'm reading the rumors wrong, but isn't the idea of the E-M1 to include PDAF in addition to CDAF? If so, it seems plausible that the older 43 lenses would be focused PDAF style, or perhaps with some new hybrid algorithm. Just hitting E-5 speed would seem like a big win for Oly for a lot of applications.

Am I reading your note wrong?

But I agree that situation could be more complex than that

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Looking for equilibrium...

You're reading rumors right. You're reading my note wrong.

The only point of my reply was that there is a huge chance that older M43 lenses could use only PDAF. I believe that PDAF can't be combined with CDAF. You (or camera automatics) will select what AF to use. Speed of PDAF still remains to be confirmed, because this PDAF is different from traditional

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Looking for equilibrium...

Why would the older 4/3 lenses (I believe you meant 4/3, not m43) only use PDAF.  The only difference between the older and newer lenses, that were optimized for CDAF, was the reduction in mass that was required to move in order to focus.  Less mass = faster focus.  Obviously, faster motors, etc help, but there is no technical reason why the lenses couldn't use CDAF (in fact they do on m43 cameras.

The PDAF could easily augment CDAF for focus by telling the camera the distance to the focus point.  The camera could then use CDAF for fine tuning the focus when possible.  I'm still skeptical that the performance will meet the fastest DSLRs for tracking C-AF, but I'm betting on a huge improvement in speed with a hybrid AF system.

Am I still missing your point?

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jkrumm
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Re: Let's be clear, the ONLY thing about E-M1 that matters is...
In reply to peevee1, Aug 28, 2013

peevee1 wrote:

The square size issue was solved a year ago in E-PM2 and E-PL5 and could have been easily added to E-M5 with firmware update. Smaller square obtained by magnification though is as small as it gets, how much smaller do you really need? If you think that DSLRs have PDAF sensors as small as indicated by the squares in the viewfinder, you are wrong too - they would not work reliably or quickly in low light (just like dedicated PDAF pixels in Nikon 1/NEX-5r/Canon t4i do not - exactly because they are too small and thus signal from them in low light has to have either extremely low readout/high exposure time, or be very noisy).

My wife has the EPM2, and while I agree the square option is improved, it's still not the same as using pdaf on my E5. And unfortunately it still can't focus my 50-200 well, so I can't test it where it would be most useful. Anyway, I'm unsure why we disagree here. For 4/3 users, if the EM1 performs as early leaks claim, it will be a real pleasure to have something that can transform from a smallish m43 prime shooter to a larger 4/3 fast zoom shooter.

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jkrumm
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Re: good fast S-AF with my Four Thirds (SLR) lenses is what I most hope for
In reply to peevee1, Aug 28, 2013

I really don't think you understand. Those cameras (perhaps a future EM5 will) do not focus well with 4/3 lenses. The EM1 might, as far as we know. That matters to many people. Not sure why you even keep trying to argue this.

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