M43 seems more and more overpriced compared to NEX

Started 11 months ago | Discussions
kernel panic
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Re: M43 seems more and more overpriced compared to NEX
In reply to BitsBob, 11 months ago

)BitsBob wrote:

I agree, I moved from Canon to M43 and enjoy the results and weight/size However:-

3. Other, third party, lens makers, other than sigma, are not prepared to enter M43 until there is sensible pricing which will open up the scope for a bigger share and make this format a real challenge to Sony and others.

This is not correct. Besides Sigma, there is an M43 AF lens from Tamron (14-150mm F/3.5-5.8 Di III VC) and an MF mirror lens from Tokina (Reflex 300mm F6.3 MF Macro). Then there are the M43 exclusive high aperture MF primes from Voigtlander.

And if you look an MF third-party lenses there are lot's of manufacturers producing lenses for nearly all mirrorless systems, including M43 and NEX (Samyang, SLR Magic, Yasuhara, etc.).

There are lists of all non-adapted lenses on my website:

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wolfie
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Get some fact right first ...
In reply to peevee1, 11 months ago

peevee1 wrote:

Dennis wrote:

If you want to extend the argument, then it's fair to point out that NEX has nothing at all to compete with the excellent and fairly priced 45/1.8 and 75/1.8

No, 75/1.8 is NOT fairly priced, you can get plenty 85/1.8 covering twice the image circle at less than half the price. It is in fact one of the most overpriced m43 lenses, along with 12/2 and Pana 12-35 and 35-100 pair, at least at their prices on the US market.

Of course that's just your opinion about the price. Plenty of people have voted with their wallets and would disagree.

However you justify this opinion a on a totally flawed comparison!

First remember the fact that a  FF 85mm is not an equivalent to the M43 75mm, (that would be a nearly a 42.5mm in M43),  so try the comparison to a 150mm f1.8 lens from the FF crowd (if you can find one) and see how the price, size and image quality compare.

The fact is that m.zuiko 75mm has got universally very good reviews and DXO scores. The lens rental guy pulled one apart and said the all metal internal construction was as good if not better than canon L glass or nikon pro range lenses. Quality costs extra, and as most of us know,  the price line to better build can only go up.

Please spare us the pontifications when you cant even the basic facts straight.

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SirSeth
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Entry vs. Enthusiast
In reply to jagge, 11 months ago

The E-P5 and GX7 are the newest enthusiast compacts. The GX7 especially competes against the aging NEX7, not the NEX5 series let alone the A3000. The new Sony A3000 is brilliant marketing, but an absolutely bare bones entry level body made to look DSLR-like for the USA market (albeit with a good sensor--you can do that when you own the sensor world).

Did you forget that Panasonic and Olympus have lower cost bodies for buyers who don't value price over enthusiast features. These folks aren't going to quibble over 1/8000 shutter speed or a slightly lower LCD resolution, lack of 2 control dials or custom functions, lack of a microphone jack.....

Micro4/3rds is not over priced. They stratify their prices across different lines like everyone else. Of course the newest flashy bodies are going to sell at list prices at the beginning of the their product cycles, just like the NEX7 and NEX6 did.

You could also ding Fuji for being way overpriced compared to the A3000 also. I mean they might not pack the MP or something else that doesn't measure up, but man have you seen or felt the quality? They are going after a totally different market and they ooze quality. They are too expensive for my tastes, but they are not overpriced because people buy them who want that type of quality.

Best,

Seth

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Dennis
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Re: Get some fact right first ...
In reply to wolfie, 11 months ago

wolfie wrote:

First remember the fact that a FF 85mm is not an equivalent to the M43 75mm, (that would be a nearly a 42.5mm in M43), so try the comparison to a 150mm f1.8 lens from the FF crowd (if you can find one) and see how the price, size and image quality compare.

Sigh ...

I read over and over again how tired m43 users are tired of the "Equivalence brigade" coming in here to correct things that m43 users supposedly know by heart, and yet I keep reading total nonsense like this whenever I visit this forum

So ... forget equivalence for a moment and consider that the OP was comparing m43 to NEX.  Granted, there isn't an 85/1.8 that fits NEX right now, but lets at least move over to another APS-C platform ... like Nikon DX.  I'm using an inexpensive 85/1.8 on Nikon DX with a sensor that's reasonably close to m43.  It's a great lens at $500 and compares favorably.

The fact is that m.zuiko 75mm has got universally very good reviews and DXO scores. The lens rental guy pulled one apart and said the all metal internal construction was as good if not better than canon L glass or nikon pro range lenses. Quality costs extra, and as most of us know, the price line to better build can only go up.

Yes, I agree that the Oly is likely better built and very satisfying to use.  The Nikon feels like a consumer grade lens (though to be honest, I'm not sure I'd voluntarily spend a lot more money, given that there's nothing wrong with the build of the Nikon).

Please spare us the pontifications when you cant even the basic facts straight.

Mmmm ... yeah, I won't go there for fear of incurring the wrath of the "We don't need no stinking equivalence" brigade.

(Even if you want to ignore light-gathering (AKA noise) people buy these lenses for shallow DOF and even the "f/1.8 is f/1.8" crowd has to acknowledge that you don't need a 150/1.8 on FF to match 75/1.8.

- Dennis

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peevee1
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Re: M43 seems more and more overpriced compared to NEX
In reply to Dennis, 11 months ago

Dennis wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

Dennis wrote:

If you want to extend the argument, then it's fair to point out that NEX has nothing at all to compete with the excellent and fairly priced 45/1.8 and 75/1.8

No, 75/1.8 is NOT fairly priced, you can get plenty 85/1.8 covering twice the image circle at less than half the price. It is in fact one of the most overpriced m43 lenses, along with 12/2 and Pana 12-35 and 35-100 pair, at least at their prices on the US market.

OK, you got me there ... in fact, it's possible that in evaluating the 45 & 75, I've drunk the kool-aid a little ... that is, I'm looking at $400 being reasonable as a "portrait prime" forgetting that 50/1.8s for larger sensors on other platforms cost much less.

In fact, I have the very excellent new Nikon 85/1.8 and it represents a tremendous bargain. (I love the FOV on APS-C).

In the 75's favor, it might be sharper across the frame ?

Well, apples to oranges, but according to DxOMark, on 24-mpix D600 Nikon 85/1.8G reaches 19P-MPix (whatever it means),

Nikon 85/1.8G @ f/1.8 on D600

while 75/1.8 on E-M5 (the best m43 camera tested) is 13 P-Mpix.

75/1.8 @1.8 on E-P5

The ancient 85/1.8D is 17P-Mpix on D600 (although obviously not wide open, the strange P-Mpix does not take that into account). On 16-mpix D7000 they are about the same as Oly75,

85/1.8G @1.8 on D7000.

on the newer 24-mpix D5200/D7100 should be better.

(I haven't bothered trying to compare since there's really no point). I'd guess it to be better built and more satisfying in use. (The Nikon feels like a consumer grade lens, like the 35 & 50). Not that I'd necessarily want to pay more for warm fuzzies like that.

I would pay more for that. The price of the tin can it is, a few $$ maybe, not $400-$500 extra.

However, if you're specifically comparing m43 to NEX, then there is no fast tele for NEX, not even a fast portrait prime. There's only the 50/1.8 which is good (maybe not 45/1.8 good) and stabilized for $350. I suspect a longer portrait prime won't be as good a bargain as the Nikon 85/1.8.
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DLBlack
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Re: M43 seems more and more overpriced compared to NEX
In reply to jagge, 11 months ago

The Samsung Galaxy NX is going to have a suggested retail price of $1,599, which just might be more expensive than the "pro-level" Olympus E-M1 or the Panasonic GX7.

Dave

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ThomR
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I'm curious
In reply to Dennis, 11 months ago

If you put the $500 Nikon 85mm lens on a new D7100 take a pic at F1.8 and then crop it down to 16MP and a 4x3 aspect ratio, how would the image compare to the Olympus 75mm lens on an E-M5 at F1.8? I have no idea, but that would be a good comparison.

These companies sell items for what the market will pay. If there is less competition and no used market/supply, the prices will be high.

I have an opportunities to buy an E-M5 from a friend who has two. I am try one out.

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peevee1
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Re: M43 seems more and more overpriced compared to NEX
In reply to goshigoo, 11 months ago

goshigoo wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

Dennis wrote:

If you want to extend the argument, then it's fair to point out that NEX has nothing at all to compete with the excellent and fairly priced 45/1.8 and 75/1.8

No, 75/1.8 is NOT fairly priced, you can get plenty 85/1.8 covering twice the image circle at less than half the price. It is in fact one of the most overpriced m43 lenses, along with 12/2 and Pana 12-35 and 35-100 pair, at least at their prices on the US market.

Totally agree on this; any m43 lens that are over 700 USD are definitely overpriced (12,12-35,35-100,7-14,75...)
but there are still many good lenses for us to choose (14,17,20,25,45 f/1.8, 100-300, 9-18, 14-42 II, 45-175, etc.)

There are some very well priced m43, obviously Oly 14-42 II R is priced more than fairly in kits at $50-100, with ability to easily mount specially made WA, Macro and FishEye convertors, and it is decently sharp and decently fast in the middle of the range (unlike Pana 14-42 II which is 1/2 slower except at the extremes). Oly 40-150, on sales all the time at $99-$149, is even underpriced given how good, light, decently sharp and fast and quiet focusing it is. Pana 14-45, 45-200 and 45-150 are also bargains. Actually, Oly 60mm macro is reasonably priced (especially at $400 on sales) for what it is - sharp weather-sealed macro (equiv to 2:1 on FF!), with focus limiter.

Then there are lenses than are only slightly overpriced, and most m43 lenses fall into this category - Pana 14, 20, 25, 45-175, Oly 17/1.8 ($400 on sales is almost OK for metal build and snap focus), 45/1.8 ($350 on sales), 12-50 ($300 in kit, dark but a lot of useful features and super useful range). 75-300 II (now that it falls to $500 on sales), Pana 100-300 at the current $500. I don't mention Oly 17/2.8 because it is junk.

Then there is significantly overpriced stuff, like Oly 14-150 and both Pana 14-140, Pana 7-14, Oly 9-18.

And then there are insanes: Oly 12/2, 75/1.8, Pana 45/2.8 macro, 12-35, 35-100 (way too much even at their grey market "no warranty" prices).

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Dennis
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Re: M43 seems more and more overpriced compared to NEX
In reply to peevee1, 11 months ago

On the NEX front, you have a number of lenses that are priced a bit higher than DSLR equivalents:

55-210 is only f/6.3 and $350.

new 16-70/4 is $1000.  Not too unreasonable next to f/5.6 version from Nikon and $1000 for Sony's 16-80/3.5-4.5 DSLR lenses, but no bargain.

35/1.8 for $450 !  Granted, it's the only lens of its type that's stabilized, but it's an awfully expensive normal.

50/1.8 for $300 seems ok to me for a stabilized lens, but a competing non-stabilized lens is under $200.

18-200 (the original) for $900 and $1200 for the power zoom !  Admittedly, this is a good performer, and really well built - both solid and silky smooth with excellent IS.

CZ24/1.8 for $1100 !  Yeah, it has Carl Zeiss printed on it and it's a good lens, but $1100 for the a 35mm equivalent that's only f/1.8 on APS-C ?

One of the complaints I've seen about the new dirt-cheap a3000 on the Sony forums is that it's only $150ish cheaper than a similar Sony SLT, but you're stuck in a system with expensive lenses.

So maybe the Oly 45 & 75 aren't great bargains next to DSLR lenses, but the OP started by comparing to NEX, and things don't look so bad.

- Dennis

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peevee1
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Re: Get some fact right first ...
In reply to wolfie, 11 months ago

wolfie wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

Dennis wrote:

If you want to extend the argument, then it's fair to point out that NEX has nothing at all to compete with the excellent and fairly priced 45/1.8 and 75/1.8

No, 75/1.8 is NOT fairly priced, you can get plenty 85/1.8 covering twice the image circle at less than half the price. It is in fact one of the most overpriced m43 lenses, along with 12/2 and Pana 12-35 and 35-100 pair, at least at their prices on the US market.

Of course that's just your opinion about the price. Plenty of people have voted with their wallets and would disagree.

However you justify this opinion a on a totally flawed comparison!

First remember the fact that a FF 85mm is not an equivalent to the M43 75mm, (that would be a nearly a 42.5mm in M43),

First of all, you can put 85/1.8 on m43 and get very similar picture to what 75/1.8 gives you. They also have very similar design constraints, except the focusing group of m43 lens should be lighter (or focusing motor stronger), but it should not worry about quality/coverage beyond 22mm image circle while FF lens should.

And if you bring equivalence, then m32 75/1.8 is like 150/3.6 FF, and 85/1.8FF is like 42.5/0.9 m43. But I prefer to operate real FLs because that is what they are and very comparable in design constrains above the system's flange distances (obviously, design of FF lenses on Nikon F and Canon EF below 40mm gets complicated than the same FLs on m43).

so try the comparison to a 150mm f1.8 lens from the FF crowd (if you can find one) and see how the price, size and image quality compare.

150 f/3.6 in light gathering, with different real group distributing the same light (as 75/1.8 m43) over larger circle.

The fact is that m.zuiko 75mm has got universally very good reviews and DXO scores.

But not as good as $450 85/1.8 for FF.

The lens rental guy pulled one apart and said the all metal internal construction was as good if not better than canon L glass or nikon pro range lenses. Quality costs extra, and as most of us know, the price line to better build can only go up.

Sure, quality costs extra, that is why I do not suggest it should cost $200. But not $900 either. A little below Canon and Nikon 85/1.8 (given smaller FL and much smaller image circle) would be fair, $400 or so. 45/1.8 should be $150 though (see FF 50/1.8 at $99).

Please spare us the pontifications when you cant even the basic facts straight.

Which are those?

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aim120
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M4/3 is pricey well look at Samsung
In reply to DLBlack, 11 months ago

They have priced the plasticy galaxy camera with no dials or buttons for $1700, thats more then the EM1.

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KGROOX
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Re: M43 seems more and more overpriced compared to NEX
In reply to Dennis, 11 months ago

I own an nex6 (and a nex 5n before that) but if it's a really great cam for stills,  I'm not fully happy with moire and aliasing that I see sometimes on my video shoots.

So I had a quick look on olympus EM5, G6 or GX7 which are considered far better on video side

but :

- GX7 is overpriced and IBIS doesn't work during video (!!) . And I didn't see any stabilized lenses with fast aperture (and not too big !). I would prefer a stabilized shoot rather than IQ considered the whole package size (Why do we need a very small cam if we should bring each time a tripod...)

- EM5 : great cam almost perfect, but there is an only damn 30p video mode

- G6 : much bigger and same remark about non stabilized lenses with fast aperture. Plus there isn't anymore a big prices différence between those 2 family lenses.

Considering I'm a casual videographer, may be I should wait expecting hack, firmware update or even new a app that either :

- fix moire and aliasing pb on nex6 -> Sony)

- enable IBIS during video on GX7 -> Panasonic)

- allow 24p and 60p modes on EM5 ->Olympus

I do have a look also on RX100 but DOF can't be as good as with my SEL50f18 and I can't now shooting without a build-in EVF.

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peevee1
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Re: M43 seems more and more overpriced compared to NEX
In reply to DLBlack, 11 months ago

DLBlack wrote:

The Samsung Galaxy NX is going to have a suggested retail price of $1,599, which just might be more expensive than the "pro-level" Olympus E-M1 or the Panasonic GX7.

Interesting concept, total failure to price it correctly. No pro will buy it, no enthusiast with large stores of lenses, and for occasional buyer it is $1000 too high.

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walkaround
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Re: Entry vs. Enthusiast
In reply to SirSeth, 11 months ago

SirSeth wrote:

You could also ding Fuji for being way overpriced compared to the A3000 also. I mean they might not pack the MP or something else that doesn't measure up, but man have you seen or felt the quality? They are going after a totally different market and they ooze quality.

I'm sorry but Fuji cameras do not "ooze quality" to me. They feel like hollow plastic, and when I hold one I can't believe it costs $1000. Much like the E-P5.

The only place in the market I see build quality, performance, and price coinciding is at the $500 price point, regardless of brand.

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SirSeth
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Re: Entry vs. Enthusiast
In reply to walkaround, 11 months ago

walkaround wrote:

SirSeth wrote:

You could also ding Fuji for being way overpriced compared to the A3000 also. I mean they might not pack the MP or something else that doesn't measure up, but man have you seen or felt the quality? They are going after a totally different market and they ooze quality.

I'm sorry but Fuji cameras do not "ooze quality" to me. They feel like hollow plastic, and when I hold one I can't believe it costs $1000. Much like the E-P5.

Interesting. I had the opposite reaction. Is it the lightness of a camera that turns you off? I have a Pentax Q (original) that is heafty feeling for it's size.

Best,

Seth

The only place in the market I see build quality, performance, and price coinciding is at the $500 price point, regardless of brand.

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DJF77
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Re: Entry vs. Enthusiast
In reply to walkaround, 11 months ago

Im guessing you have never picked up an Xpro 1 or Omd EM5, they have fantastic build quality. The NEX 7 also feels nice,  the NEX6 not so (very plasticy). Each manufacturer has an item aimed at different price point groups. Dont hate on people just because they didn't pick Your choice of equipment as the best made ever.

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peevee1
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Re: I'm curious
In reply to ThomR, 11 months ago

ThomR wrote:

If you put the $500 Nikon 85mm lens on a new D7100 take a pic at F1.8 and then crop it down to 16MP and a 4x3 aspect ratio, how would the image compare to the Olympus 75mm lens on an E-M5 at F1.8? I have no idea, but that would be a good comparison.

It is in fact will be very very close.

These companies sell items for what the market will pay. If there is less competition and no used market/supply, the prices will be high.

I am not sure what "market will pay" means. There is not a single cut off market price - "market will pay $899 but not 899.01". Especially for the goods like lenses where demand is very elastic.
I think it works more like this - "a marginal production cost of 75/1.8 is $200, we have spent developing it (including licensing of IP, testing, tooling, marketing) $1.5M in fixed costs, if we set the price at $300 we will sell 20,000 of them over the life of the lens earning $2M (earning $0.5M), if we set the price at $900 we will sell 4,000 of them, but with margin of $700 per unit we will earn $2.8M, i.e. will have profit of $1.3M, and always can drop the price later to earn a few more sales on the tail end if cheaper competition would not catch by that time".

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Dennis
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Re: M43 seems more and more overpriced compared to NEX
In reply to KGROOX, 11 months ago

KGROOX wrote:

- GX7 is overpriced and IBIS doesn't work during video (!!) . And I didn't see any stabilized lenses with fast aperture (and not too big !).

Those two stabilized f/1.8 primes are pretty unique ... a great selling point for anyone who values that feature.

- Dennis

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peppermonkey
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How does an X-Pro1 & X100s feel like hollow plastic? (nt)
In reply to walkaround, 11 months ago

walkaround wrote:

SirSeth wrote:

You could also ding Fuji for being way overpriced compared to the A3000 also. I mean they might not pack the MP or something else that doesn't measure up, but man have you seen or felt the quality? They are going after a totally different market and they ooze quality.

I'm sorry but Fuji cameras do not "ooze quality" to me. They feel like hollow plastic, and when I hold one I can't believe it costs $1000. Much like the E-P5.

The only place in the market I see build quality, performance, and price coinciding is at the $500 price point, regardless of brand.

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Re: M43 seems more and more overpriced compared to NEX
In reply to peevee1, 11 months ago

peevee1 wrote:

And then there are insanes: Oly 12/2, 75/1.8, Pana 45/2.8 macro, 12-35, 35-100 (way too much even at their grey market "no warranty" prices).

Call me insane if you like, but I have one of those and it is one of the finest pieces of equipment I have used and well worth the price.

And a system with no corresponding lens at any price is of course a non-starter.

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