1022 future developments: I want to ask this BEFORE any new cameras are released

Started 8 months ago | Discussions
goblin
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1022 future developments: I want to ask this BEFORE any new cameras are released
8 months ago

First thing first: This is NOT a "there will be no other 4/3 DSLR" thread. Please don't interpret it this way.

Second, a little history:

- Last year, the OM-D was released. Whether it was the next best thing after sliced bread or not is irrelevant.

But the fact is that it had a profound effect on this very forum, although not being a 4/3 camera: It was discussed so much, there were so many threads about it (here, in the 1022 forum), that eventually some people got fed up with all the noise around it.

- The result was that, although tolerated before, m43 discussions of any sort became almost taboo for a time. People daring mentioning anything m43, even when used with 4/3 lenses, got vehemently kicked back to troll-land. The forum came to a situation where discussing other brands and models was more tolerated than discussing anything m43.

The situation has fortunately calmed down since. Discussing m43 in a relevant 4/3 context (comparisons, purchase choices) seems to not be a problem now, which seems more than normal to me, as this forum has always been open to discussions - that's what a forum is about.

Now, the question(s):

IF a new camera able to handle 4/3 lenses correctly is released soon and IF it happens to NOT be a DSLR and NOT have natively a 4/3 mount - where is it to be discussed ?

A: The m43 forum, because this is a DSLR forum

B: Hey, this would mean more fun with our existing 4/3 lenses. Bring the discussion here.

C: PDAF ! OVF !! MIRROR !!! 4/3 MOUNT !!! PDAF ! OVF !! MIRROR !!! 4/3 MOUNT !!! VADE RETRO, SINE SPECULUM !!! BREACH ! BREACH !! BREACH !!! HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLDDD !!!

Now, my point:

I've been through that several times, but let me say it again:

- I care more about my lenses than about anything else. I don't care what I'll attach them on, as long as they work correctly. For what it's worth, if Sigma releases a 4/3 compatible body, I'd buy it. If a cheap chinese copy of say the E-300 is released - I'd buy it.

- "Go to the m43 forum !!!" is too easy of an answer to me. It ignores one simple detail: there are more m43 users who have NEVER owned nor touched a 4/3 lens (most of them still own non-4/3 dslr systems) than users who come from 4/3

- I don't want this forum to become the next Konica Minolta forum. As cute as it is to see one new E-1 thread per day, closed systems (read "System" in the wide term, not as in "Photographic systems") tend to degenerate and die. A forum is like a nuclear submarine - if it stops, it goes to the bottom. If the next 4/3 camera is a classic 4/3 DSLR - great. But there is always a possibility it doesn't come under this form.

Long story short - this is our forum - let's plan ahead.

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rovingtim
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4/3rds lens forum
In reply to goblin, 8 months ago

This is a gear forum first. We have a lot of photo threads because there really isn't much going on with the gear.

If Olympus does not introduce another 4/3rds body in the immediate future, I think we should treat this forum as a 4/3rds lens forum.

What is the point of a DSLR forum when there are no new DSLRs to talk about?

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Rriley
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Re: 1022 future developments: I want to ask this BEFORE any new cameras are released
In reply to goblin, 8 months ago

"Long story short - this is our forum - let's plan ahead."

Im all for that
personally I dont have a problem with m43rds topics here
but thats far from universal

another factor is, 1041 is outrageously busy, and could use cutting up some how
OTOH if there are no more SLRs its going to be quite dull here after awhile
so I suspect a reorganised set of fora for 43rds/m43rds would be a sensible move

how to do that is the question, back to Panasonic and Olympus?
use lens and camera categories?
in a way splitting m43rds makers up is a little inconvenient
I think key attention getters would be among m43rds P&O bodies
then what happens if Kodak or someone appear with a m43rds body?

not really my call, but people need to think about it as you say
and perhaps a good suggestion will show up

I dont really have any, but would ask people to be a little more flexible and more tolerant

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Just Having Fun
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Re: 4/3rds lens forum
In reply to rovingtim, 8 months ago

rovingtim wrote:

This is a gear forum first. We have a lot of photo threads because there really isn't much going on with the gear.

If Olympus does not introduce another 4/3rds body in the immediate future, I think we should treat this forum as a 4/3rds lens forum.

What is the point of a DSLR forum when there are no new DSLRs to talk about?

Agree.

I also agree lenses are the most important part.

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CollBaxter
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Re: 1022 future developments: I want to ask this BEFORE any new cameras are released
In reply to goblin, 8 months ago

I was thinking along the same lines.

To me the logical solution would be to split the m4/3 forum Panasonic one side and Olympus the other side then combine the 2 forum into Olympus interchangeable lens cameras. This would stop the 3 way bickering or at least draw up battle lines.

I will continue to post here. I like you value my lenses and I have 3 times as much money invested in my lenses than I do bodies. The other forum seems to put more emphasis on bodies which are churned out on a regular basis.

So I will post pictures with headings like

Dogs Bum taken with the bigma

Cats ass taken with the 90-250

I have been through 4 bodies with the bigma.

As someone said in a previous post . The forum is like a mature forest. The other like a forest that has been brush cut.

Me I like stable things.

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goblin
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Re: 1022 future developments: I want to ask this BEFORE any new cameras are released
In reply to CollBaxter, 8 months ago

CollBaxter wrote:

I was thinking along the same lines.

To me the logical solution would be to split the m4/3 forum Panasonic on side and Olympus the other side then combine the 2 forum into Olympus interchangeable lens cameras. This would stop the 3 way bickering or at least draw up battle lines.

This is precisely my concern. I am AGAINST any merging of the 4/3 and m43 forums. Part of the reasoning being what I mentioned above: there are many, many m43 users who have not seen a 4/3 lens (or any other 4/3 gear, for that matter) for real in their lives. They went to m43 as an addition to their existing CaNikoPentaWhatever system.

A separation along brand lines would also split things. Purely m43 users use both Oly and Panny lenses.

To me, the best evolution to the 1022 forum would be:

"The place to discuss Olympus E series digital SLR cameras, 4/3 lenses and any camera that can handle them (Purely Micro Four Thirds cameras and lenses should be discussed on the Micro Four Thirds Talk forum)"

This keeps the emphazis on E series SLR, opens the forum to camera bodies which can handle correctly 4/3 lenses, keeps any other 4/3 equipment in, and keeps the "purely m43" stuff at bay.

Of course, "handle them" and "purely m43" are a bit vague, but I am quite sure Olympus will find a specific designation to name the next hybrid or whatever camera they release (if it is a hybrid, of course).

The only "danger" from this would be to see more discussions like "Pictures I made this morning with my 4/3 300mm/2.8 on my E-PM1" But hey, why not.

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jkrumm
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Re: 4/3rds lens forum
In reply to rovingtim, 8 months ago

Makes the most sense to me. Or at least put in the description that this is a place to discuss both 4/3 bodies and 4/3 lenses with m43 bodies. You could call it Olympus 4/3 talk. This coming body might be the first serious upgrade for 4/3 lens users to come along in three years, and I don't see why we shouldn't discuss it and see samples here.

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tinternaut
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Re: What would be the downsides to one big Olympus forum?
In reply to goblin, 8 months ago

Just asking...

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Raist3d
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I simply don't care for those who are offended by the word "m4/3rds"
In reply to goblin, 8 months ago

if it's in a 4/3rds context, it belongs here.  Those people do not own the forum even if they would like to think they do.  If they are really that offended they can always skip the thread- apparently something they are unable to physically or psychologically to do.  That's their problem.

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Rriley
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Re: 1022 future developments: I want to ask this BEFORE any new cameras are released
In reply to goblin, 8 months ago

going back some years, older OM lenses shared another life on Canon 5D cameras
the practise was not common, but was well understood by enthusiasts and widespread
ask yourself how many 5D owners have come to 1022 to discuss using OM lenses
very few 'if' any, b/se its impractical and makes no sense

people will deal with m43rds cameras using any lens they find including 43rds lenses in 1041
and for the reception some of them get, who could blame them

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duckling
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4/3 is all about the optics
In reply to goblin, 8 months ago

I haven't posted on this forum for ages, but I own an E-5 and some fine lenses for it so I consider myself entitled to participate in this important discussion.

What makes the 4/3 system special is its optics, much less so its cameras. In fact, ZD lenses are designed differently from their m.Zuiko siblings and deserve a shrine of their own on DPReview even if the bodies which support them are now sadly outdated. Moreover, If Olympus is indeed to release a camera which will support both lens families equally well, it is quite reasonable to predict a new surge of interest in 4/3 lenses among the 1041 populace and thus a recovery at 1022.

This scheme would make sure 1022 is kept relatively safe from trolling as optics don't make a very attractive substrate for such infections. Besides, I imagine most of the m4/3 users who might be interested in 4/3 lenses are civilized and experienced.

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goblin
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Re: What would be the downsides to one big Olympus forum?
In reply to tinternaut, 8 months ago

tinternaut wrote:

What would be the downsides to one big Olympus forum?

Just asking...

Simple: too much noise from too many directions. Due to:

- Too many different user backgrounds

- Too many m43 bodies already available

- Too many m43 lenses (some making double use) already available.

Good luck trying to discuss 4/3 lenses in the middle of a fight whether the m43 14-42 zuiko version one is better than version two, while someone is screaming from the side that nothing beats the new panny 14-42 kit lens, not to be confused neither with the Panny 14-45mm kit lens, neither with the first 14-42 Panny, and God Forbid not with the 14-42X Panny.

WHAT ?!? WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE 12-42X Panny ?!? Well, it's stabilization sucks. Really, it sucks ? Yeah, it sucks. What, does it suck more or less than the stab on the E-PL1 which was a downgrade from the E-620 ? Yeah, sucks more than that, if they were so good, why does the new Panny camera come with in body stabilisation ? He he he. Oh, yeah ? If the in body stabilisation is so good, why does this Panny in body stabilisation automatically turn off when a stabilised lens is detected ? Huh ? Well, that's another issue, Panny is unable to make an IBIS as good as Oly's Oh, really, they are not ? And where are Oly's 12-35mm and 35-100mm ?

And so on, and so on.

See, I made this all up with only a few voices in my head. Imagine a whole forum

Keep in mind that CaNikon forums are not one forum. Just watch them. They are separated even by models.

duckling wrote:

... ... ...

Here's to someone who managed to express exactly what I think and feel in not so many words. Kudos and thanks.

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kittykat23uk
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Re: 1022 future developments: I want to ask this BEFORE any new cameras are released
In reply to CollBaxter, 8 months ago

CollBaxter wrote:

I was thinking along the same lines.

To me the logical solution would be to split the m4/3 forum Panasonic one side and Olympus the other side then combine the 2 forum into Olympus interchangeable lens cameras. This would stop the 3 way bickering or at least draw up battle lines.

I will continue to post here. I like you value my lenses and I have 3 times as much money invested in my lenses than I do bodies. The other forum seems to put more emphasis on bodies which are churned out on a regular basis.

.

I agree with this. There are other forums like the Olympus e-system forums where talk of both 4/3 and m 4/3 are welcome. I don't see why we can't do the same here. I get the sense that there are more people withOlympus 4/3 plus micro than there are micro users who own both Olympus and Panny micro kit. So to me it makes sense to have Olympus kit as one family and PannyI kit as another family with the forums divided that way. Especially as hopefully more of us will become dual 4/3 and m 4/3 oly users.

Just my 2p though

Jo

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TrapperJohn
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What do you want 4/3 and 1022 to become?
In reply to goblin, 8 months ago

The cold hard fact is... In the current situation, there is probably not enough of a market to fully support the development of a first rate 4/3 DSLR. Not today, not with Oly's limited resources, not with where E system sales are.

All I can say to the more stalwart is: open your mind and give the OMD-Pro a try. Judge based on fact, not innuendo. You may be pleasantly surprised. I had the same concerns I hear voiced around here: the EVF, the small size, the little buttons, handling. I found that, other than the slow AF, the concerns were not evident when I put HG and SHG onto a gripped OMD.

No ulterior motive in saying that - in fact I should encourage the doom and gloom, to get better prices on the ZD's that I'd like to get. Seriously - ZD on OMD worked far better than I expected it to.

So that leaves 1022... long the home of beautiful photographs, and intelligent discussions on improving photographs. Now that most of the other brand trolls aren't coming around to dance on the carcass, most of the irritating chat is gone.

In contrast, 1041 is a lot of gear banter, plus 'my specific situation' whining, plus DSLR trolls (and yes, some familiar names appear in that category) plus fanboy wars. Granted, fanboy wars within M43 are utterly silly, the gear all works together, but fanboys are both determined and obtuse.

Perhaps the most stark contrast between the two: when Panasonic brought out the L1 and L10, plus the fabulous PL lenses, that sort of thing never came up here. Not even a hint of it. I regard that to be a testament to the maturity and clear vision of the participants.

The forum will evolve to whatever it will be. I would like to see it adapt to the new platform, and focus on the high end glass, what can be done with that, both ZD zooms and MZD primes. The way things are looking, it will be that or nothing. 1041 does not have the community that exists here. I would especially like to see the same civil, thoughtful responses that characterize this group.

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TrapperJohn
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In reply to tinternaut, 8 months ago

If you exclude all but Olympus products, you also exclude the Bigma. The Nikkor 400 3.5 that I've had a lot of fun with. And a couple of other Sigma lenses worth considering.

Plus the Voigtlander 17 and 25 .95. S-C has a couple of M43 lenses, if you have the money.

Panasonic shouldn't be counted out. The M43 20 1.7 is a very good lens, at a very good price, provided you use a UV filter on the light Oly AA filter. They have a 150 F2.8 coming up that looks interesting, provided the price isn't too sinful.

Do you really want to exclude anything that produces a better or more interesting rendering on a 4/3 sensor?

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goblin
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Re: What would be the downsides to one big Olympus forum?
In reply to goblin, 8 months ago

On a humorous note...

A quote from THE rumor site about the supposed new camera:

...AF has been reported to be very fast, reliable and accurate with Four Thirds lenses. It’s on the same level as “native” MFT lenses...

Reality check hat on:

If it's at the same level, it means we can say goodbye to C-AF, kh kh kh

Reality check hat off:

Hey, who cares. Bring it on

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dave gaines
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The future of Olympus SLR Talk is a premature question
In reply to goblin, 8 months ago

I agree with your recap of the history, with an addition. The m4/3 adopters made themselves unwelcome here on 1022 by proclaiming the DSLR system to be dead and a lousy camera. They claimed 4/3 had nothing to offer, we should all abandon ship and adopt m4/3. They did it on every post they could. It was ugly and destructive for a forum dedicated to Olympus SLR Talk. We've seen the negativity again for the last couple of weeks, since we learned that there will probably be another OM-D released this year.

The Olympus DSLR and 4/3 is alive and well, TYVM. We've had announcements from Corporate Olympus that an upgrade to the E-5 is planned for this year. Nothing official from Corporate Olympus was announced or stated that an E-5 upgrade and the optimization of 4/3 lenses is going to be an improved m4/3 MILC.

We don't know much of anything about the next OM-D except that it will cost more. No one knows if it will focus 4/3 lenses any better than the E-P5. A lot of speculation and rumors have been thrown about as if they were true, but we don't know what it will feature until we see it. Then it will to have to be released so we can test it with 4/3 lenses. It's one thing for Olympus to say "World's Fastest Autofocus", under certain conditions with one ideal lens. It's another thing to actually see how slowly it focuses lenses like the 50-200 or 35-100.

We'll all know soon enough. Something will be announced by mid-September. If it's not a DSLR, an announcement about 4/3 and the future of DSLRs wil be made. If the announcement is that a DSLR is coming then we'll have a bright future here, with our 4/3 system. If they try to say that a new OM-D is the future for using 4/3 lenses, we will still have a lot of good E-system cameras to use for years to come.

If Olympus announces an OM-D Enthusiast's cam that can focus faster than any DSLR on the planet, a lot of us will still be shooting with our humble yet efficient E-5, E-3, E-30, E-620, E-520, E-420, E-330, .... E-1s - all the 4/3 DSLRs.

The sooner all this speculation, guessing and wishful thinking stops the better. Have patience and wait a couple of weeks for Olympus to  release a new camera or several cameras that answer all of our questions. Wait for an official announcement.

Hopefully we can get back to posting photos here and discussing photo techniques soon.

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goblin
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Re: The future of Olympus SLR Talk is a premature question
In reply to dave gaines, 8 months ago

dave gaines wrote:

...

The sooner all this speculation, guessing and wishful thinking stops the better. Have patience and wait a couple of weeks for Olympus to release a new camera or several cameras that answer all of our questions. Wait for an official announcement.

...

Dear Mr Gaines

I am not waiting for an Olympus announcement on 4/3's future, as it is irrelevant to my question.

My question comes with a big IF, and the answer should be quite simple - "yes", "no", "not in a hundred years", or such. This can be very well answered now, by pretty much everyone concerned.

dave gaines wrote:

If Olympus announces an OM-D Enthusiast's cam that can focus faster than any DSLR on the planet, a lot of us will still be shooting with our humble yet efficient E-5, E-3, E-30, E-620, E-520, E-420, E-330, .... E-1s - all the 4/3 DSLRs.

I will, too. With my E-1, E-5, L1, E-420, E-500, E-620 and hopefully my second E-5, which is currently on its way to me.

But "will you use your old cameras" was not the question I ask in this thread. The question asked is - will you oppose this "OM-D Enthusiast's" cam being discussed here ?

Also, let me ask you this specific question:

- If BOTH a new dslr and a non-dslr cameras are released (hey, you never know), BOTH being able to handle 4/3 lenses in an identical way - should they both be "allowed" in 1022, or just the dslr one ?

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dave gaines
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What are the future cameras from Olympus?
In reply to goblin, 8 months ago

goblin wrote:

dave gaines wrote:

... Wait for an official announcement.

Dear Mr Gaines

...

My question comes with a big IF, and the answer should be quite simple - ...

Hi Goblin,

I understood your question. I just think it's too soon to know. Let's see what the new cameras really are before we asssume it fits in with an SLR forum. You asked the question and that's my answer.

I mentioned the negativity we got here in the past from m4/3 adopters. It's rearing it's ugly head again. There's a lot of guessing, speculation, rumors and wishful thinking to go with it this time because no official announcement of the camera has been made yet. People are again saying 4/3 is dead before they see what's coming. If this is what we're going to get, negativity towards 4/3, then no, I don't welcome the m4/3 camera here on Olympus SLR Tak forum.

Yes, I also believe Olympus will announce both a new OM-D and a DSLR very soon. They can't possibly handle 4/3 lenses in the same way, with the same performance. No one has accomplished PDAF with a MILC as well as a DSLR yet and it's not likely to happen right now. If they do release an E-7 with a new sensor and improved AF and CAF there would be no urgent need for an OM-D to focus 4/3 lenses as fast as an E-5. If it happens sometime in the future that would be great.

I got what you said. I'm not ready to answer the question until I see what's released. I think the question is premature.

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OlyChamp
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Re: 1022 future developments: I want to ask this BEFORE any new cameras are released
In reply to goblin, 8 months ago

I like what I read and very good questions/assumptions.

Personally I'm not a gear junkie.  I take photos and I find that "old" Oly DSLR's quench my thirst.  And a part of that thurst is to improve my craft and the way I do that is to post in a specific forum where feedback will be constructive and valid as those commenting/critiquing have used (or still use) the gear I have, so I learn.

And the learning process is coupled with a vibrant forum that makes for even more learning.  I might not participate a lot in gear or politics threads but I do read and what I read is 99% heartening and useful.  So what of that 1%?  Well this forum title gives the onus of the poster to see that it is a DSLR forum and there are 1% of posters here that stray in their thinking, and post/lambast other systems, be them Oly or whatever.  All kudos for them, but I do see that largely this forum handles those intrusions very well (most ignore).

So what are the options??  It really doesn't matter to me what the forum name and content it is, that's up to folks to decide, but I do think that if we continually create offshoots we create mess.  Has anyone ever entertained what DPR will do with their forum structure?  They might decide to scrap the two fora and merge them into one solely Olympus Forum.  Their call and one I think worth the doing.

Why??  Well it might just give each supporter of either system the ability to share their specific techniques and results and we'll see a friendly rivalry develop between the two system users AND each will grow from the experience.  The reason there were flame wars here over the two systems wasn't about mFT ore 4/3 but people not being readily able to accept the intrusion on "their patch" - politics.

So what am I asking?

1. DPR merge both fora.

2. Both system users be more willing to share Olympus gear/images (or as stated other bodies that handle either lenses) and share their experiences and techniques so we all grow.

3.  Return respect for all concerned.  Remember we are Olympus Users not Olympus Forum Abusers.

MTCW

Thane

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