If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?

Started Aug 10, 2013 | Discussions
Rod McD
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to sgoldswo, Aug 13, 2013

If you read through the comments made at the introduction and review of the RX1, I think you'll find that there were significant numbers of people who wouldn't buy it because they didn't want to be confined to one FL, another (overlapping) bunch who want a BIEVF  rather than an add on finder, and another bunch who simply lamented the cost.  I think they'd be the key reasons....... I'd count myself as not being happy with the RX1 for all those reasons.

I have no data on the potential market for an IL version with a BIEVF, but from the interest, I'd say it's there......

Cheers, Rod

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carlk
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to 57even, Aug 13, 2013

57even wrote:

Samaistuin wrote:

BillyInya wrote:

It should all be all about image quality and performance.

For me I am not convinced full frame offers that much of an advantage anymore. IQ out of the X-Trans APS-C size sensor is ridiculously good and low light/high ISO performance is amazing. It is rivaling full frame on many levels.

If Fuji stay true to their roots, focusing on core image quality and performance, then I don't think they have anything to worry about short/medium term.

I have a feeling Sony will come to market with anything they feel will sell at the time. Mind you, this is certainly not a flawed modus operandi for any company but the clear and distinct advantages of full frame are simply no longer really there now Fuji have their X-Trans APS-C sensor. I know many will not agree but that's the way I see it.

Now, imagine for a split second that Fuji came up with an FF X-Trans.
I'm not sure you would still go with an APS-C sized sensor without any hesitation.

Sure I would. I already have a FF camera, I wanted something small and good. Whatever a FF Xtrans would look like it would still require much larger lenses and I would have to start a whole new collection... for what? Another stop of DR?

Same here.  I wouldn't jump on the bandwagon if Sony or Fuji makes a MF either.  I think it's fair to say the sweet spot of sensor format is slowly moving away from FF and toward the aps-c now.

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carlk
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Rod McD, Aug 13, 2013

Rod McD wrote:

I have no data on the potential market for an IL version with a BIEVF, but from the interest, I'd say it's there......

Cheers, Rod

Interest may be there but real buyers may not when you factoring in cost of the camera and a new set of lens collection.

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mr moonlight
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Rod McD, Aug 13, 2013

Rod McD wrote:

If you read through the comments made at the introduction and review of the RX1, I think you'll find that there were significant numbers of people who wouldn't buy it because they didn't want to be confined to one FL, another (overlapping) bunch who want a BIEVF rather than an add on finder, and another bunch who simply lamented the cost. I think they'd be the key reasons....... I'd count myself as not being happy with the RX1 for all those reasons.

I have no data on the potential market for an IL version with a BIEVF, but from the interest, I'd say it's there......

Cheers, Rod

I feel that a lot of people felt similar about the X100. They didn't want to be confined to one focal length and were turned off by the cost. I think the X100 overcame these reservations because it also gave people something additional that caught their interest. The hybrid viewfinder, manual controls and retro styling. Once it got into the hands of users, they realized that their reservation about having 1 focal length wasn't nearly as much of an issue as previously thought and a good number found it to be an advantage.

I think the big drawback of the RX1 is that it's missing a built in OVF. Without one, I think people are much more hesitant to drop that kind of cash and the market isn't made up of only X100 users who are comfortable shelling out for a single focal length camera. When you think about the price point of the RX1, we're not exactly talking about the younger generation here. For that kind of disposable income we're looking at 30+ y/o professionals who grew up with OVF's in every camera. Before the X-series cameras I would actually been fine with the hot shoe mount OVF, but after using and simply knowing the Fuji Hybrid finder exists, I don't see the point in the RX1. I'd much rather wait and see what Fuji comes up with over the next few years. FF is a really nice feature, but it's not enough to outweigh the cameras drawbacks now that we have Fuji cameras on the market.

Now if Sony drops a similar hybrid type viewfinder onto a FF MLILC with manual controls, it would be an enticing camera. Of course I'd wait and see what Fuji comes up with. They've already done an admiral job on their existing cameras and it's hard to beat Fuji glass.

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57even
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to carlk, Aug 13, 2013

carlk wrote:

57even wrote:

Samaistuin wrote:

BillyInya wrote:

It should all be all about image quality and performance.

For me I am not convinced full frame offers that much of an advantage anymore. IQ out of the X-Trans APS-C size sensor is ridiculously good and low light/high ISO performance is amazing. It is rivaling full frame on many levels.

If Fuji stay true to their roots, focusing on core image quality and performance, then I don't think they have anything to worry about short/medium term.

I have a feeling Sony will come to market with anything they feel will sell at the time. Mind you, this is certainly not a flawed modus operandi for any company but the clear and distinct advantages of full frame are simply no longer really there now Fuji have their X-Trans APS-C sensor. I know many will not agree but that's the way I see it.

Now, imagine for a split second that Fuji came up with an FF X-Trans.
I'm not sure you would still go with an APS-C sized sensor without any hesitation.

Sure I would. I already have a FF camera, I wanted something small and good. Whatever a FF Xtrans would look like it would still require much larger lenses and I would have to start a whole new collection... for what? Another stop of DR?

Same here. I wouldn't jump on the bandwagon if Sony or Fuji makes a MF either. I think it's fair to say the sweet spot of sensor format is slowly moving away from FF and toward the aps-c now.

For all practical purposes I think APSC has become "good enough" for 90% of amateur photographers. What pros use is up to them of course, but I seldom meet any than waste money.

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Krich13
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to mr moonlight, Aug 13, 2013

mr moonlight wrote:

Rod McD wrote:

If you read through the comments made at the introduction and review of the RX1, I think you'll find that there were significant numbers of people who wouldn't buy it because they didn't want to be confined to one FL, another (overlapping) bunch who want a BIEVF rather than an add on finder, and another bunch who simply lamented the cost. I think they'd be the key reasons....... I'd count myself as not being happy with the RX1 for all those reasons.

I have no data on the potential market for an IL version with a BIEVF, but from the interest, I'd say it's there......

Cheers, Rod

I feel that a lot of people felt similar about the X100...

And they still are. Both are extremely restrictive, and Fuji goes great length not to offer an interchangeable-lens pancake alternative to X100s.

I like Fuji zoom 18-55 well enough, may be will buy 10-24 when it comes out and Zeiss 32 is fantastic. Beyond that, I'll try to curb investment into Fuji system; wait and see what Sony (or Canon, or Nikon or anybody else) comes up with. I may be even be able to use my Nikon lenses on new Sony camera, provided focus peaking is well-implemented.

And yes, FF-Nex (or whatever the name will be) will hurt Fuji sales badly, no question about that.

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carlk
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to 57even, Aug 13, 2013

57even wrote:

carlk wrote:

57even wrote:

Samaistuin wrote:

BillyInya wrote:

It should all be all about image quality and performance.

For me I am not convinced full frame offers that much of an advantage anymore. IQ out of the X-Trans APS-C size sensor is ridiculously good and low light/high ISO performance is amazing. It is rivaling full frame on many levels.

If Fuji stay true to their roots, focusing on core image quality and performance, then I don't think they have anything to worry about short/medium term.

I have a feeling Sony will come to market with anything they feel will sell at the time. Mind you, this is certainly not a flawed modus operandi for any company but the clear and distinct advantages of full frame are simply no longer really there now Fuji have their X-Trans APS-C sensor. I know many will not agree but that's the way I see it.

Now, imagine for a split second that Fuji came up with an FF X-Trans.
I'm not sure you would still go with an APS-C sized sensor without any hesitation.

Sure I would. I already have a FF camera, I wanted something small and good. Whatever a FF Xtrans would look like it would still require much larger lenses and I would have to start a whole new collection... for what? Another stop of DR?

Same here. I wouldn't jump on the bandwagon if Sony or Fuji makes a MF either. I think it's fair to say the sweet spot of sensor format is slowly moving away from FF and toward the aps-c now.

For all practical purposes I think APSC has become "good enough" for 90% of amateur photographers. What pros use is up to them of course, but I seldom meet any than waste money.

Perhaps even pros may find aps-c more than good enough for most of their works.

http://zackarias.com/for-photographers/gear-gadgets/fuji-x100s-review-a-camera-walks-into-a-bar/

http://billfortney.com/?p=8732

If people like those think Fuji aps-c is good enough for them what am I to complain about?

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Samaistuin
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to 57even, Aug 13, 2013

57even wrote:

Whatever a FF Xtrans would look like it would still require much larger lenses

Is that a demonstrated assertion or just wishful thinking?

sgoldswo wrote:

Yes, I would. I need to sell one or two FF cameras, not buy another.

Why wouldn't you buy a camera of roughly similar dimensions that could give you a better IQ?
Price and pre-owned lenses aside, I'm talking in absolute terms here.

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Astrophotographer 10
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to BillyInya, Aug 14, 2013

I have done side by side tests with my D800E. The D800E is significantly sharper and more resolution but the gap is narrowed by some of the Fuji better lenses like the 35mm F1.8.

The major gap is more nightscape shots that I do like 30 seconds wide open and the D800E is in another league there at ISO3200/6400. XE1 is the best of the mirrorless for that type of shot but is lacking a bit behind the full frame.

In other areas its performance is better like white balance is superior as is jpeg colour.

D800E brightness, speed, AF performance and overall response is in another league completely and is extremely snap and pop but the Fuji is constantly being improved whereas the D800E is static.

Greg.

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57even
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to carlk, Aug 14, 2013

carlk wrote:

57even wrote:

carlk wrote:

57even wrote:

Samaistuin wrote:

BillyInya wrote:

It should all be all about image quality and performance.

For me I am not convinced full frame offers that much of an advantage anymore. IQ out of the X-Trans APS-C size sensor is ridiculously good and low light/high ISO performance is amazing. It is rivaling full frame on many levels.

If Fuji stay true to their roots, focusing on core image quality and performance, then I don't think they have anything to worry about short/medium term.

I have a feeling Sony will come to market with anything they feel will sell at the time. Mind you, this is certainly not a flawed modus operandi for any company but the clear and distinct advantages of full frame are simply no longer really there now Fuji have their X-Trans APS-C sensor. I know many will not agree but that's the way I see it.

Now, imagine for a split second that Fuji came up with an FF X-Trans.
I'm not sure you would still go with an APS-C sized sensor without any hesitation.

Sure I would. I already have a FF camera, I wanted something small and good. Whatever a FF Xtrans would look like it would still require much larger lenses and I would have to start a whole new collection... for what? Another stop of DR?

Same here. I wouldn't jump on the bandwagon if Sony or Fuji makes a MF either. I think it's fair to say the sweet spot of sensor format is slowly moving away from FF and toward the aps-c now.

For all practical purposes I think APSC has become "good enough" for 90% of amateur photographers. What pros use is up to them of course, but I seldom meet any than waste money.

Perhaps even pros may find aps-c more than good enough for most of their works.

http://zackarias.com/for-photographers/gear-gadgets/fuji-x100s-review-a-camera-walks-into-a-bar/

http://billfortney.com/?p=8732

If people like those think Fuji aps-c is good enough for them what am I to complain about?

Pros will use whatever the job needs, and more often than not rent anything that's only going to be used now and again.

Clearly for the kind of work these guys do, the Fujis are all you need. Just like the old Leica M series was all most photojournalists needed for several decades.

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carlk
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to 57even, Aug 14, 2013

57even wrote:

carlk wrote:

57even wrote:

carlk wrote:

57even wrote:

Samaistuin wrote:

BillyInya wrote:

It should all be all about image quality and performance.

For me I am not convinced full frame offers that much of an advantage anymore. IQ out of the X-Trans APS-C size sensor is ridiculously good and low light/high ISO performance is amazing. It is rivaling full frame on many levels.

If Fuji stay true to their roots, focusing on core image quality and performance, then I don't think they have anything to worry about short/medium term.

I have a feeling Sony will come to market with anything they feel will sell at the time. Mind you, this is certainly not a flawed modus operandi for any company but the clear and distinct advantages of full frame are simply no longer really there now Fuji have their X-Trans APS-C sensor. I know many will not agree but that's the way I see it.

Now, imagine for a split second that Fuji came up with an FF X-Trans.
I'm not sure you would still go with an APS-C sized sensor without any hesitation.

Sure I would. I already have a FF camera, I wanted something small and good. Whatever a FF Xtrans would look like it would still require much larger lenses and I would have to start a whole new collection... for what? Another stop of DR?

Same here. I wouldn't jump on the bandwagon if Sony or Fuji makes a MF either. I think it's fair to say the sweet spot of sensor format is slowly moving away from FF and toward the aps-c now.

For all practical purposes I think APSC has become "good enough" for 90% of amateur photographers. What pros use is up to them of course, but I seldom meet any than waste money.

Perhaps even pros may find aps-c more than good enough for most of their works.

http://zackarias.com/for-photographers/gear-gadgets/fuji-x100s-review-a-camera-walks-into-a-bar/

http://billfortney.com/?p=8732

If people like those think Fuji aps-c is good enough for them what am I to complain about?

Pros will use whatever the job needs, and more often than not rent anything that's only going to be used now and again.

Clearly for the kind of work these guys do, the Fujis are all you need. Just like the old Leica M series was all most photojournalists needed for several decades.

Amateurs buy camera mostly to impress himself and people around him.  The result is not always consequential to them.  Some wedding pros do think professional looking cameras that impress the clients can mean better business but photojournalists don't need to impress anyone other than with pictures they took.

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Astrophotographer 10
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Krich13, Aug 15, 2013

There seems to be more against a FF Fuji than for it. I guess we will see soon enough as a FF Nex is expected within a month or so. Also with a couple of Zeiss lenses released at the same time.

If its true its FF and in camera stabilised (so your legacy lenses are all now stabilised) and the menu system is improved plus a hot new Exmor sensor it could create quite a sensation. All for a camera 15% bigger than a normal Nex 7.

Seeing as a lot bought into X Trans system because of IQ and this are disciminating photographers I would have thought there would be more interest. But then cost is still unknown and that could be the big stopper.

Greg.

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Rod McD
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Aug 15, 2013

Hi Greg,

I'm watching and waiting too.  As you say, a lot will depend on price.  The RX1's  high price (and  more for the OVF) doesn't bode well for the FF NEX price.  I know a lot of the pricing game is about niche volume, the fact that it's the first compact FF and the fact that there's zero competition.  OTOH, surely the D600 or 6D are far more complex cameras and a price point closer to their BO price might give the FF NEX system better acceptance.  We'll just have to wait and see.

As far as native lenses go Sony Alpha Rumors have tipped a small Zeiss 35mm/2.8 like the old Contax design.  I haven't seen any other designs rumored, but you'd have to tip a 50mm and/or a 24mm and/or an 85mm sooner or later.  A number of posters have griped about the rumored 35mm/2.8 as being too slow.  Personally I'm absolutely fine with it as long as it offers superlative IQ.  There are many advantages to slower lenses.  Again, we'll have to see.

BTW despite all the hype over in the Sony Forum about the rumored FF NEX's  imminent release, the hard-nosed sceptics over there seem to think it's a bit further off - maybe 2014.

Patience,

Rod

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Austin101
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to 57even, Aug 15, 2013

57even wrote:

Samaistuin wrote:

BillyInya wrote:

It should all be all about image quality and performance.

For me I am not convinced full frame offers that much of an advantage anymore. IQ out of the X-Trans APS-C size sensor is ridiculously good and low light/high ISO performance is amazing. It is rivaling full frame on many levels.

If Fuji stay true to their roots, focusing on core image quality and performance, then I don't think they have anything to worry about short/medium term.

I have a feeling Sony will come to market with anything they feel will sell at the time. Mind you, this is certainly not a flawed modus operandi for any company but the clear and distinct advantages of full frame are simply no longer really there now Fuji have their X-Trans APS-C sensor. I know many will not agree but that's the way I see it.

Now, imagine for a split second that Fuji came up with an FF X-Trans.
I'm not sure you would still go with an APS-C sized sensor without any hesitation.

Sure I would. I already have a FF camera, I wanted something small and good. Whatever a FF Xtrans would look like it would still require much larger lenses and I would have to start a whole new collection... for what? Another stop of DR?

to give the same 50mm(ish) EQV a 50mm lens wouldn't have to be much or any larger than the current 35mm fuji lens, look at say the Nikon 35mm f1.8 DX lens, its pretty much the same size as the Nikon 50mm f1.8 FX lens and its actually larger than the Nikon 35mm f2 FX lens.

larger sensors ofter higher quality and more DR, that is a fact, if Fuji can do what they've done with an APS-C sensor then a FF sensor will be better.

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Austin101
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Aug 15, 2013

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

There is a lot of rumours about an upcoming full frame Nex camera. Possibly 32mp.
Wow.

I wonder what that would do to X sales? Perhaps not a lot as it will be an expensive camera no doubt - $2,500 to $3,000 most likely. But it most likely would be in another league IQ wise over the X system no matter how good Xtrans is. Size matters and there is no substitute for full frame sized sensors. Especially if it has millions of PDAF pixels for a DSLR competing AF system.

The good side benefit may be to get Fuji to make one too.

What do you think?

Greg

The NEX-6 is smaller than the X-E1 and it also handles better IMO, if a FF NEX is only going to be a bit larger than it may not be any bigger than the X-Pro1.

Sony designed the NEX-6/7 not to look like a Leica rangefinder but like a small DSLR with a real grip, the NEX feels much more solid and better made, the EVF is also better.

If Sony release a FF NEX at a lowish price then I think that it will hurt future Fuji sales but only if they produce the lenses to match.

I do hope that Fuji will release a FF X system within the next two years along side the current APS-C versions but more in the X-M1 style, there's money still to be made in releasing an X-Pro2 and X-E2 but I think that will be short lived.

If Sigma produce a couple of the ART primes for the FF NEX then it'll be game over for Fuji

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sgoldswo
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Aug 15, 2013

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

There seems to be more against a FF Fuji than for it. I guess we will see soon enough as a FF Nex is expected within a month or so. Also with a couple of Zeiss lenses released at the same time.

If its true its FF and in camera stabilised (so your legacy lenses are all now stabilised) and the menu system is improved plus a hot new Exmor sensor it could create quite a sensation. All for a camera 15% bigger than a normal Nex 7.

Seeing as a lot bought into X Trans system because of IQ and this are disciminating photographers I would have thought there would be more interest. But then cost is still unknown and that could be the big stopper.

Greg.

I think the issue is that people either aren't interested (are happy enough with APS-C) or have FF cameras already. It's difficult to justify the expense when there will undoubtedly be limited but expensive lenses at launch when one could buy a Nikon or Canon body with plenty of good, cheap FF lenses available right now.

No doubt there is some interest, but Sony will need to be in it for the long term to pull the crowds. I hope they have Oly as well as Zeiss designing lenses otherwise it will take too long to build a critical mass of lenses. They could take forever to release lenses for NEX because the P&S upgrader market didn't really demand much more than a kit zoom anyway - a FF purchaser is going to be more discerning...

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Astrophotographer 10
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Austin101, Aug 15, 2013

It'll be out soon. All the complaints about mirrorless except for OMD Em5 are about the AF.

If Sony has a PDAF system like what Canon just brought out (the rumour is they have something similar) and it produces high quality AF plus they have in camera stabilisation and a cutting edge sensor it would be more damaging to DSLRs. But it would get some sales off Fuji due to the constant complaints about the AF.

I agree it would also come down to excellent lenses. A Zeiss 16-70mm F4 zoom is about to be released and I think this is one of the lenses they intend for it.

Greg.

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Rod McD
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Aug 15, 2013

Looks more like an APSC equivalent to an FF 24-105mm to me........ perhaps for the APSC NEXs.  I can't see anyone with an FF NEX choosing a 16-70 over primes. - surely it would have significant optical compromises?  (Nikon & Canon have set their UWA zoom range to 16-35mm).  It would also be quite large.....which would kind of defeat the mirror-less advantage.

If Fuji do ever release a FF camera I hope they do so with some small light matched primes - perhaps not too fast in order to keep it small.

Rod

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Austin101
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Rod McD, Aug 15, 2013

Rod McD wrote:

Looks more like an APSC equivalent to an FF 24-105mm to me........ perhaps for the APSC NEXs. I can't see anyone with an FF NEX choosing a 16-70 over primes. - surely it would have significant optical compromises? (Nikon & Canon have set their UWA zoom range to 16-35mm). It would also be quite large.....which would kind of defeat the mirror-less advantage.

If Fuji do ever release a FF camera I hope they do so with some small light matched primes - perhaps not too fast in order to keep it small.

Rod

If Fuji are having such a hard time making a 23mm f1.4 (35mm EQV) lens for the X system I have to wonder if they have it in them to make a FF X.

if and when the 23mm f1.4 does see the light of day it may very well be too late

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carlk
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Re: If Sony releases a FF Nex what will this do to X sales?
In reply to Astrophotographer 10, Aug 15, 2013

Astrophotographer 10 wrote:

There seems to be more against a FF Fuji than for it. I guess we will see soon enough as a FF Nex is expected within a month or so. Also with a couple of Zeiss lenses released at the same time.

If its true its FF and in camera stabilised (so your legacy lenses are all now stabilised) and the menu system is improved plus a hot new Exmor sensor it could create quite a sensation. All for a camera 15% bigger than a normal Nex 7.

Seeing as a lot bought into X Trans system because of IQ and this are disciminating photographers I would have thought there would be more interest. But then cost is still unknown and that could be the big stopper.

Greg.

The question is still if anyone shooting x system now thinks image quality is lacking and in what ways?  I would think the price, in cost and size, to pay far outweigh any IQ gains, if there is any, unless you print larger than 20"x30" often.

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